Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Aggro Beans Dropped during the Taming, Mounts and Travel PTV

    • 2756 posts
    September 23, 2022 7:23 AM PDT

    It was a great vid packed full of info but I just wanted to highlight some beans that dropped related to Aggro and Consider that I don't think we knew about before?

    Crouch Walking

    Joppa: "Every player will be able to crouch and walk ... and in doing so you are going to reduce the amount of sound that you make .. we're not talking about Rogue stealth here"

    Monster Senses and Aggression / Aggro

    Joppa: "...we do plan to have several different forms of mob aggression. Some will be triggered through sight - which is the one we're probably all most familiar with - some hearing, some smell, and then a few other things that I won't mention here and of course there will be certain entities that may have a combination of all these things or some of these things factoring into their aggression response but the implication there is if this is perhaps a rare animal type then you may need to deal with you know more than one sense to be able to get into position"

    Deeper /Consideration

    Joppa: "we found a few different ways even outside of the [taming] system that we're excited to imbue into consideration to really make it more of a substantial skill that players are using more commonly and it's one of the reasons why we decided to remove level numbers from the NPC nameplates because we're wanting to harmonize all the different things that feed into why considering something is important
    and something that you want to be doing.
    Once a player unlocks that [taming] system ... it's going to augment your consideration messaging when considering animals in relation to if they're tameable or not. So if ... it's a tameable animal when I consider it I'll see a message like 'this animal appears to be tameable'... If you are high enough level and you have enough animal taming skill you will get a hint that through your consideration message that says something like 'this animal would be challenging to tame'"

    Obviously this was all in relation to the Taming, Mount and Travel PTV, but I think it has some interesting implications to the aggro system for the 'normal' combat gameplay loop and gives a good indication of the level of sophistication VR are putting into these systems.

    These kinds of features on top of things like Dispositions, States, Readiness, etc has me very excited for combat in the next pre-alpha!


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 23, 2022 7:24 AM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    September 23, 2022 7:31 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    It was a great vid packed full of info but I just wanted to highlight some beans that dropped related to Aggro and Consider that I don't think we knew about before?

    Crouch Walking

    Joppa: "Every player will be able to crouch and walk ... and in doing so you are going to reduce the amount of sound that you make .. we're not talking about Rogue stealth here"

    Monster Senses and Aggression / Aggro

    Joppa: "...we do plan to have several different forms of mob aggression. Some will be triggered through sight - which is the one we're probably all most familiar with - some hearing, some smell,..."

    Welp, wont be grouping with Halfings then. They stink. 

    That said, it begs the question as to how smell is going to work and how we'll know if odors are wafting in the direction of the NPC.  Wind?  Will we see wind not only moving but changing directions ala Valheim?  What about indoors where the air might be quite stagnant.  Will existing odors (like you're in a dungeon filled with the rotting corpses of undead) overwhelm our odors?  Will we be able to sense these things?

    Oh, and Joppa mentioned being able to mask your smell.  Pantheon version of deodorant confirmed.  Hopefully it uses gnomes as a recipe component.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at September 23, 2022 7:43 AM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    September 23, 2022 8:30 AM PDT

    I hated skellies, ooh! They always seemed to find me and were way too high!. I didnt have enough bags or money to buy bags so I would fill up my slots and sell when full. Skunks were good, I needed to rest afterwards but they were a good fight. One had a gland? Skellies would seem to see me a mile away and come right for me! I was so scared I spent a long time doing small things and the gland was lore so I held on to it, it was too big for the bags I had so I left it in a slot. After a while I couldn't sell outside? I went into the Palace and...suddenly no one knew me? these were my people! I went to my trainer and it was like I was a stranger! I camped and came back in thinking a glitch and same thing!. I went back outside to toxx forest and killed some more, a fire beetle was by a tree. killed it and went around the tree and- paralyzed. A skellie was 2 feet in front of me. But...he didn't go for me. ?? I backed away and the skellie moved. Another looked like it was coming for me, I moved out of the way and...it walked right past. !?! what the- I went to sell again to my man Emil Parsini and again he threatened to kill me. I sat and opened the manual. The manual said you need faction- I had that I was a native fercrissake! and it also said CHA can help, too if you can improve CHA. Nifty! maybe I can make a small ring with some CHA but I would need to get a chanter to enchant some silver for me and that was 'spensive and I didnt know what gem was right so not right now, I checked my CHA and it was...negative! like -20 I was like wtf? how? A kobold whacked me while I was inside Emils place and I took care of it, it was only a runt but it had a backpack! I shuffled my stuff and....put the skunk scent gland in the backpack because it could fit-I only had quest containers that only held small or tiny things, as bags. Filled it up and went to Miss Rainsparkle, see if she would buy my stuff, she would! hmm. I saved some and went back to Emil- he would buy too! what the- I ran back into the palace- they know me! I checked my CHA, it was positive, it was +11 hunh. I went outside and I see a skellie 50 yards away, I'm not bothered, I go to get something else and that skellie laughing, b-slapped me from behind! waitaminit. After the guards took care of the skellie I took the skunk scent gland out of the bag and put it in an open spot and sat for a bit then checked my CHA. Sure enough! it had gone DOWN!. I stank! hahaha! the double funny was? skellies have no nose but seemed put off by the smell or maybe its because I smelled rotten to them, decomposed like they were. It was like a small skellie protection thing at the cost of losing faction for a while- because I stank!  

    TL,dr. I hope its something like that. That there is invis and sometimes thats not good enough for intuitive reasons. Likewise things you can do with variations of scents as auras?/applique's?(consumable short to med duration clickies?). Stonefish has some ideas too, iirc.

    • 612 posts
    September 23, 2022 12:32 PM PDT

    I had a few thoughts about this whole 'consider' thing.

    Joppa said that he wants you to have to make active choices to 'consider' NPCs. So instead of having info like target level just show up on the health bars, you would need to press a 'consider' hotkey to get that kind of info. Making it an active thing instead of just part of the Health bar only makes sense if the system gives more than just level information along with that system.

    We know that they are adding tamable info to this 'consider' system, and Joppa also hinted that there will be other info we can get from 'consider'. Likely our perception skill will play a big part of this.

    In EQ when you 'considered' an enemy it just showed a Text line in your chat in a specific color. In early gameplay streams they showcased this exact same thing with considering targets putting a text line in your chat.

    But if 'considering' is going to be more complex and give more information, would it not be useful for there to be a popup window in the UI showing a 'Consider' tooltip? The more info that's going to be tied to 'consider' the more a tooltip window makes sense. Instead of getting a spam of 6 different text lines in your chat each time you hit your consider button it instead pops up a UI window showing all that info. The UI window would then scale to however much info you can gleen based on your perception and NPC data available. If it's just the 'scowls at you ready to attack line' then it might be a small window, but if it's a half dozen pieces of info then the window grows to show everything you need to see.

    My suggestion is to make different options for the button. The tooltip window could be set to only appear on the downpress of the consider button and then disappear again when you release the button. Or you could have the option to make it a toggle; Press 'c' once to open the consider window and then press 'c' again to close it.

    • 888 posts
    September 24, 2022 12:43 AM PDT

    Consider should really be two tiered:

    1. A basic impression.  This is what displays on the nameplate and is used to give you basic info.
    2. A deeper evaluation.  This provides greater detail but requires you be close / still for a bit (or use a spyglass).

    This is more realistic and it allows for a recon style of play to be viable. Rogues could be sent in to scout and actually obtain valuable info.

    • 2756 posts
    September 24, 2022 1:56 AM PDT

    Counterfleche said:

    Consider should really be two tiered:

    1. A basic impression.  This is what displays on the nameplate and is used to give you basic info.
    2. A deeper evaluation.  This provides greater detail but requires you be close / still for a bit (or use a spyglass).

    This is more realistic and it allows for a recon style of play to be viable. Rogues could be sent in to scout and actually obtain valuable info.

    Yes indeed. THis is what I hope the hints we are getting are pointing at! I'm hoping this sort of stuff will be 'revealed' soon ;)

    • 200 posts
    September 25, 2022 8:44 AM PDT

    Asmongold is not very amused. :(

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQvuzWMKCLk

     

    Cheers

    • 1273 posts
    September 26, 2022 9:41 AM PDT

    I wonder if there will be buffs or something to help sneak while in a group...or maybe if I'm grouped with a rogue he can help me, give me tips, on how to sneak past a certain spot or sneak up on a mount I'd like to tame.  

    • 2756 posts
    September 27, 2022 1:29 AM PDT

    Larirawiel said:

    Asmongold is not very amused. :(

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQvuzWMKCLk

    Cheers

    I really don't get how that guy is popular at all. Always clickbait and he's so annoying as a person. I would worry if I thought any of the folks that actually like his content would be the kind of players I would want to play with ;^)

    • 888 posts
    September 27, 2022 10:41 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Larirawiel said:

    Asmongold is not very amused. :(

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQvuzWMKCLk

    Cheers

    I really don't get how that guy is popular at all. Always clickbait and he's so annoying as a person. I would worry if I thought any of the folks that actually like his content would be the kind of players I would want to play with ;^)

    But if Pantheon isn't popular with troll tubers, we might not attract their troll audience.   Our community will suffer greatly if they aren't here to share their toxicity. (Yes, this is sarcasm).

    • 102 posts
    September 27, 2022 12:04 PM PDT

    Ugh please, I couldn't even watch the whole thing. He's just trolling and being disrespectful for views and "likes". He is reacting and making judgment to things completely out of context, very low brow. He is exactly the type of player this game doesn't need. By all means, go play something else.


    This post was edited by Brutenga at September 27, 2022 12:09 PM PDT
    • 363 posts
    September 28, 2022 4:51 PM PDT
    Asmongold sounds so ignorant speaking on Pantheon. Safe to say he's not cut out for it lol.
    • 82 posts
    September 29, 2022 12:18 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    .... it begs the question as to how smell is going to work and how we'll know if odors are wafting in the direction of the NPC.  Wind?  Will we see wind not only moving but changing directions ala Valheim?  What about indoors where the air might be quite stagnant.  Will existing odors (like you're in a dungeon filled with the rotting corpses of undead) overwhelm our odors?  Will we be able to sense these things?

    Oh, and Joppa mentioned being able to mask your smell.  Pantheon version of deodorant confirmed.  Hopefully it uses gnomes as a recipe component.

    Stuff like this is very very cool! That would take hunting and taming to a another level!

    • 1273 posts
    September 30, 2022 8:34 AM PDT

    Careful which mounts you choose to ride often...you might start to smell like them :P

    • 500 posts
    September 30, 2022 9:23 AM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    Careful which mounts you choose to ride often...you might start to smell like them :P

    So, that's why Vandraad smells like a Gasbat. :)

    • 144 posts
    October 5, 2022 11:01 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    My suggestion is to make different options for the button. The tooltip window could be set to only appear on the downpress of the consider button and then disappear again when you release the button. Or you could have the option to make it a toggle; Press 'c' once to open the consider window and then press 'c' again to close it.

    This is a really cool idea. I'd make a third suggestion. Populate the nameplate of each considered item to present the information you acquired in a simple persistent visual way. This would lead to a few pros, in my opinion. In a pack of close together patrolling mobs, you don't have to try to remember which mob was tamable or if you already considered a specific mob out of the group of five standing near each other. 

    I envision this looking something like all mobs having a basic white font nameplate. After you consider the mob, the color of the font changes to the consideration determined for you (green, blue, red, etc). Then decorative icons would appear around the nameplate to denote extra things. A tiny little saddle icon if it's tamable. And if the person is high enough in perception maybe extra things like a fancy border if you determined it's an elite or rare mob plus maybe even a hint towards it's disposition (if it won't be naturally visible).

    Counterfleche said:

    Consider should really be two tiered:

    1. A basic impression.  This is what displays on the nameplate and is used to give you basic info.
    2. A deeper evaluation.  This provides greater detail but requires you be close / still for a bit (or use a spyglass).

    This is more realistic and it allows for a recon style of play to be viable. Rogues could be sent in to scout and actually obtain valuable info.

    This could even expand on my suggestion by making the extra info on considered mob nameplates visible to all group members. Would make scouting extremely useful. 

    disposalist said:

    I really don't get how that guy is popular at all. Always clickbait and he's so annoying as a person. I would worry if I thought any of the folks that actually like his content would be the kind of players I would want to play with ;^)

    I'm more worried about a huge generalization of the 1+ million fellow gamers that follow a content creator. I don't follow Asmongold and would never have seen this video if not linked. However, the influence he holds in the subset of gamers who play MMO's is immense. I checked the youtube stats of NathanNapalm, a huge supporter and fan of Pantheon, and he gained 100 subscribers the day Asmon's critique video was posted. That's 100 more people that are now following news of the game that may have never heard of it before. 

    In addition, when he started playing FFXIV, Square literally had to stop selling digital copies claiming they "sold out" because the influx of players was so large. As a player of FFXIV, the community is known as one of the nicest ones compared to games with similar large populations, and that has not changed since he has joined. The culture of a game determines what it feels like, and I'm positive a game like Pantheon will promote a culture that weeds out most toxicity (no game will ever get all of it).

    Lastly, his critiques are 100% valid. Nathan's video doesn't state at the start that all videos are from pre-alpha. Nor does it say it on the screen during the streams. So while we know the graphics will only get better, a first time viewer will think this is the final product visually. As for the mechanics and combat, we've always known it won't be for everyone. It's basically the principle of the game to veer away from what modern MMO's are currently doing. I'm sure there are still a lot of his viewers thinking "that actually doesn't sound bad" or "I've been looking for something like that". 

    Basically, I'll take all his publicity for Pantheon. In a group focused game, the more people I have to play with, the better. Many might dislike the game. But if we believe in the team like they seem to believe in themselves, then many more will stay and find a new MMO home. 

    • 888 posts
    October 5, 2022 1:46 PM PDT

    Consider should also include class and race specific information. This makes choices even more meaningful and it further enhances class roles. Note that I'm not suggesting every race and every class have specific extra info--it should only be added where it makes sense. 

    Some examples:

    1. Archai can see elemental attunement 
    2. Clerics and Paladins can see more info on undead
    3. Druids and Rangers can see more info on natural plants and animals 
    • 2756 posts
    October 6, 2022 3:04 AM PDT

    Feastycentral said:

    disposalist said:

    I really don't get how that guy is popular at all. Always clickbait and he's so annoying as a person. I would worry if I thought any of the folks that actually like his content would be the kind of players I would want to play with ;^)

    I'm more worried about a huge generalization of the 1+ million fellow gamers that follow a content creator. I don't follow Asmongold and would never have seen this video if not linked. However, the influence he holds in the subset of gamers who play MMO's is immense.

    I was slightly tongue-in-cheek, hence the smiley. Perhaps I should add some nuance? I would worry more if I thought any of the folks that genuinely fall for the over-the-top clickbait-type element of his content would be the kind of players I would want to play with ;^)

    Better? *shrug* Either way, what I'm saying is, I'm hoping that Asmon's vid won't do Pantheon's potential community any large harm.

    Feastycentral said:

    I checked the youtube stats of NathanNapalm, a huge supporter and fan of Pantheon, and he gained 100 subscribers the day Asmon's critique video was posted. That's 100 more people that are now following news of the game that may have never heard of it before.

    Well, that's lucky. Could have gone the other way and lead to a flood of criticism and negativity? *shrug* We'll never know, but I'm not going to applaud Asmon just because his remarks - like likening his style to Rudy Guiliani - *didn't* backfire on Nathan.

    I wonder how many more subs Nathan would have got if Asmon hadn't gone with so much thoughtless scoffing and scorn?

    Feastycentral said:

    In addition, when he started playing FFXIV, Square literally had to stop selling digital copies claiming they "sold out" because the influx of players was so large. As a player of FFXIV, the community is known as one of the nicest ones compared to games with similar large populations, and that has not changed since he has joined. The culture of a game determines what it feels like, and I'm positive a game like Pantheon will promote a culture that weeds out most toxicity (no game will ever get all of it).

    I'll cross my fingers for similar for Pantheon, but that's about as sure as I would be that Asmon has a positive influence.

    Feastycentral said:

    Lastly, his critiques are 100% valid. Nathan's video doesn't state at the start that all videos are from pre-alpha. Nor does it say it on the screen during the streams. So while we know the graphics will only get better, a first time viewer will think this is the final product visually.

    Looking at his history, Asmon has made Pantheon vids before. Whatever else he is, he's not stupid and he knows very well that it's in pre-Alpha and has most likely seen the very images Nathan mixed into his footage.

    I've watched a few of his vids. I know he's not all bad, but he is in the business of 'reactions' or 'clickbait' if you prefer and that's what his motivation often is.

    Feastycentral said:

    As for the mechanics and combat, we've always known it won't be for everyone. It's basically the principle of the game to veer away from what modern MMO's are currently doing. I'm sure there are still a lot of his viewers thinking "that actually doesn't sound bad" or "I've been looking for something like that". 

    Yes, *we* know it's something that's not for everyone. VR know that too, but they are very caareful how they advertise it. It's a very tricky thing to show someone something they haven't experienced before. Imagine presenting a 'challenging' foodstuff and saying "a lot of people hate this. You probably won't like it" instead of "it's not for everyone, but I really like it". Someone on the edge just won't try it.

    There may be viewers of his intrigued. I wonder, if he'd not been so over-the-top negative about some of it, how many *more* might have been interested?

    Feastycentral said:

    Basically, I'll take all his publicity for Pantheon. In a group focused game, the more people I have to play with, the better. Many might dislike the game. But if we believe in the team like they seem to believe in themselves, then many more will stay and find a new MMO home. 

    I'm ever confident in Pantheon, the audience it has and the further audience it will draw, but I don't subscribe to the "any publicity is good publicity" idea and there certainly are some 'influencers' I would avoid were it me, having said that, again, I have faith in VR and Joppa especially would handle himself well, I know, if they did any kind of colaboration with someone like Asmongold.

    P.S. Ugh, just watched it again to make sure I'm not being harsh on Asmon... Nope. I'm not. Whilst Nathan is talking about mounts Asmon is looking at the footage playing and saying "this combat is so bad this it's like what is how can anybody I don't understand how anybody can support this I I don't get it I I really do not understand it I I I cannot even begin to understand it". He's just *looking* for excuses to pour on clickbait scorn and ignoring what is actually being presented. Yeah, great for Pantheon, that.

    And after 'reacting' to Nathan's vid, while playing cartoon comedy music, after a 'dramatic' pause while he assesses the mood of his baying crowd (those comments...), he leads with "I can't understand how people get excited about this game I don't understand it". Should have just left it there. At least he's honest there.

    "the guy's video was fine there's nothing wrong with the guy the guy's great" This after ridiculing his style, wailing things like "is this guy for real?!" and his fans piling on too, not just 'criticising' Pantheon.

    And then the mighty Asmon finishes with taking pity on poor little Nathan "this guy needs all the support he can get because God knows this &%^$* game isn't going to be giving it to him. I feel so bad for this guy"

    And now I've watched it again and derailed my own thread... Ugh. Let's please never speak of... him... again.

    • 810 posts
    October 6, 2022 8:05 AM PDT

    I am so excited about this.  It is one of those mechanics that if done well adds so much immersion to the world.  I had been ranting about a universal sneak option over the years.  Everyone can try to sneak to some degree, especially compared to a giant mount stomping around.  It sounds like crouch walking is going to be what I had hoped for.  So many common sense variables to pull in.  Players trying to sneak by deadly mobs vs players trying to sneak by deadly mobs with a burning torch making tons of sound and light.

    I love the idea of eavesdropping on NPC conversations through various means as well.  Magical and skill based solutions to this problem like the rogue stealthing are fun and can potentially be necessary for overhearing some conversations, but a simple sneak like option from crouch walking and staying hidden behind a corner would be so nice and fit the majoiry of locations. 

    Masking ones scent is also amazing.  You can't simply rely on invisibility everywhere because there are multiple paths to detecting someone.  Mob perception ratings are more unique if tied to multiple variables for sight, smell, sound, body heat, magic power, echolocation, whatever VR can think of.  Variety in this aspect is so much fun and ramp up the desire for keepers that study mobs.  A con system to know the strengths or weaknesses of a deadly mobs perception would be very helpful. 

    A rogue may hide in the shadows and move silently, but perhaps the druid will be able to mask a parties scent.  Certain mobs may only prey upon creatures with high magic power so they detect that exceptionally well. The invisble mage will still be crouch walking trying not to alert the dogs and the silent rogue will still need an invis to mask their body heat from certain mobs. 

    I care so much more about this topic than the mounts that were the focus.  This could be as game changing as the climbing system.

     

     


    This post was edited by Jobeson at October 6, 2022 8:14 AM PDT
    • 144 posts
    October 6, 2022 10:05 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    And now I've watched it again and derailed my own thread... Ugh. Let's please never speak of... him... again.

    I'll respect your wishes. I appreciate the reply. It's an interesting topic nonetheless. Even if we don't fully agree, haha. It was my fault for derailing it in the first place. I shouldn't have singled you out with my response when it could've easily been applied to others in the thread. 

    Counterfleche said:

    Consider should also include class and race specific information. This makes choices even more meaningful and it further enhances class roles. Note that I'm not suggesting every race and every class have specific extra info--it should only be added where it makes sense. 

    Some examples:

    1. Archai can see elemental attunement 
    2. Clerics and Paladins can see more info on undead
    3. Druids and Rangers can see more info on natural plants and animals 

    I'm 100% onboard with this. This would make class/race choices more impactful without making any of them a requirement in group play (group flexibility should be the name of the game). Excellent ideas in this thread. 

    @Jobeson, I can see rogues being very unhappy with your suggestions, lol. However, it would add an element of cautiousness that could be very exciting as well when getting around. 

    • 810 posts
    October 6, 2022 4:34 PM PDT
    I would assume sight and sound are the biggest two perception hurdles. Rogues would still be at the top for the majority of mobs but I think it's more exciting if they know they can't easily hide from the giant snake sensing body heat.

    Go full Jurassic Park and only attack movement just trust the keeper in the party to have good info :)

    I am a big table top gamer and I love unstealthy people in party dynamics. Guided by a proper stealther and assisted by magic. Warned in advance so they hide motionless in the bushes for the patrol to pass before getting up to clank around in their plate armor.

    • 724 posts
    October 16, 2022 11:04 AM PDT
    • Scent detection ( love it ) This makes the world more dangerous: helps in creating trains - bears have a keen sense of smell and could follow after me even after I have passed moments ago.
    • Crouching : I'm in the camp where it allows lower level players to sneak by some high level mobs to get at the goodies.   Like a fruiting bush with thorns, just slow down and concentrate to receive the sweet treats.  

     

    • 393 posts
    October 21, 2022 5:22 PM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

     

    But if 'considering' is going to be more complex and give more information, would it not be useful for there to be a popup window in the UI showing a 'Consider' tooltip? The more info that's going to be tied to 'consider' the more a tooltip window makes sense. Instead of getting a spam of 6 different text lines in your chat each time you hit your consider button it instead pops up a UI window showing all that info. The UI window would then scale to however much info you can gleen based on your perception and NPC data available. If it's just the 'scowls at you ready to attack line' then it might be a small window, but if it's a half dozen pieces of info then the window grows to show everything you need to see.

     

    This is a good point Goofy! I would rather not have to scan through chat looking for details. I like your idea. I was thinking of creating a separate chat window for 'consider' text only, if that's allowed in game. But who wants several chat screens open much of the time?  

    • 888 posts
    October 31, 2022 9:54 AM PDT
    Some predators should immediately aggro if you run from them (this range could be something like double their normal aggro range). Some mobs should have their range reduced when you're moving slowly.

    I really hope the base aggro range is much farther than in most MMOs and isn't a static line, as being able to stand really close but just short of aggro indefinitely is an immersion-breaking old game limitation that needs to go away.

    With scent as a factor, will our smell change based on anything besides spells and consumables? Like will our smell be worse once we've hit half stamina (i.e. getting sweaty) or been in combat? Can we reduce our scent by swimming? And will scent aggro be nuanced? Like will different odors increase or reduce aggro? Will DPS want to smell like garlic when fighting vampires?
    • 724 posts
    November 1, 2022 2:54 AM PDT

    Have we considered the odor aggro range after having consumed a bunch of baked beans?