When searching for topics on attributes, the post that covered my question was inaccessible to my pledge level. So I appologize for repeats.
I'm curious if we know which attributes will contribute to which skills on a high level. And more importantly, if these skills will be clearly presented in the UI... perhaps when you mouse over your attribute (even during character creation). These are the particular skills I'm personally curious about:
Physical Damage
Physical Accuracy
Physical Effect Resistance
Spell Damage
Spell Accuracy
Spell Effect Resistance
Dodge
Block
Parry
Encumberance
Concentration
If I had to guess, I would hope it would be something like below: '/' means "or" while '&' would combine attributes having the class (or equipment) designate one attribute as primary and other(s) as secondary, contributing accordingly. I suggest possibly equipment determined because something like archery requires strength and dexterity.
Physical Damage: STR & DEX
Physical Accuracy: DEX & AGI & WIS/INT (Being able to anticipate, predict, or even mislead your opponent and act/react accordingly is crucial in combat)
Physical Effect Resistance: CON & STA
Spell Damage: INT & WIS & STA
Spell Accuracy: INT & WIS & CHA
Spell Effect Resistance: CON & WIS/INT
Dodge: DEX & AGI & WIS
Block: STR & CON & WIS
Parry: STR/DEX & AGI & WIS
Encumberance: STR & CON
Concentration: WIS/INT & CON
Just some examples... but my real concern is having the UI clearly identify which skills an attribute contributes to. I don't want to have to refer to some third party source to find out 20 levels later that my CLR could've been benefiting from equipment with DEX & AGI to help land all of those missed melee strikes that would've replenished my mana or healed the group... instead of passing it to others thinking they could have better use for it - or the RNG passing on chain armor with wisdom on it for the same reason.
Although it is a 3rd party source, which I do not want to refer to once the game is released, has anyone heard of anything more up to date, or that could otherwise be used to update: https://pantheonriseofthefallen.fandom.com/wiki/Attributes#:~:text=Advertisement-,Primary%20Attributes,)%2C%20Charisma%20(Cha).
I recall a video mentioning that stats will be very important in determining the impact of the character as he/she progresses, but I can't remember which video. As an addendum to your points above, I think breaking down the stats according to classes can help mold your character better, instead of varying stats according to skills:
For example:
The stats: STR/STA/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA
The classes:
Warrior:
Wizard:
Again, I have seen any videos that go into too much detail entailing the specifics of attributes/skills/character development but I /do/ know it is highly important so choose your attributes very carefully. 1)Use your foundation of canon, 2)Use common sense, 3)Use Discord (takes a bit of work logging in and out and waiting for a response but you won't be sorry in the long run).
There's always a line between on the one side knowing only what your character would/should know (self-awareness and training) to keep it immersive and mysterious and not feeling 'game-y' and on the other side knowing enough of what's 'under the hood' to not make bad progression decisions and gimp yourself.
In previous pre-alpha vids we've seen ability descriptions that would indicate what attributes contribute, but not necessarily how much (if I recall correctly) and we saw that it probably varies more than some games traditionally do, such as charisma may help a warrior's taunt skill.
I think this is a good balance of knowledge vs mystery/immersion. We will know what stats it is worthwhile enhancing or collecting gear for, but not so much it ruins the fantasy feel.
I personally don't want to see formulas like "This strike does 100 + (10 x STR) with resists - (INT / 10)%" but knowing "This strike has a strength bonus and intelligence helps its chance to be effective" is fine.
I also don't want to see 'under the hood' so much that, when I put on a piece of gear that has +10 dex I can look at my character sheet and see my Dodge stat has increased 0.4%. In fact, I don't really want to *know* there is a Dodge statistic, or at least I don't want to know exactly how that functions.
I don't want to feel like I am some kind of expert Terminus physicist and somehow *know* how reality, magic and everything else *works*, at least not beyond an intuited level.
I know some games play that way and really lean into the build (or gear) perfection meta and I know some players love that - I enjoy that in games that do it - but I don't think that really suits the feel of Pantheon and I'm quite happy for Pantheon to lean away from that and more toward fantasy immersion.
The effects of every stat will be reverse engineered very quickly. I give the game two weeks and then everything is known and you will see first class guides on icy-veins.com etc. So there is no reason to hide it. :) Optimizing the fun out of a game, the MMORPG crowd is very good at it, unfortunately. And yes, i prefer a more complicated stat system. But please do not implement stat duplicates, that do basically the same.
Cheers
Larirawiel said:The effects of every stat will be reverse engineered very quickly. I give the game two weeks and then everything is known and you will see first class guides on icy-veins.com etc. So there is no reason to hide it. :) Optimizing the fun out of a game, the MMORPG crowd is very good at it, unfortunately. And yes, i prefer a more complicated stat system. But please do not implement stat duplicates, that do basically the same.
Cheers
Don't people still argue over the effects of some of the stats in Everquest? Or is it just the relative advantages that are still debatable?
You're right of course that some games get reverse engineered quickly - some devs don't care and with some games it's almost the whole point - but I really don't think it has to be that way and I hope VR don't accept that as inevitable and just 'give in' before they even start. To be honest I don't think they are looking at it like that from what we've heard about the dumb client and things like even though they are fine with Wikis having maps and may provide maps in game, they won't be adding a minimap or GPS (not saying maps are directly connected to the OP issue, but just an example of the emphasis on immersion rather than game-y disclosure).
I suppose that, as long as the system is satisfyingly complex, people will still have some degree of intrigue and debate about what is 'best' even if they get to understand how it works, but I really hope VR make a point of encouraging immersion by design, from the ground up.
I would also say that (in my opinion, of course) the average player - which is most players - just 'play the game' and if the game pushes the numbers at them, they will play the numbers metagame and if the game does not push the numbers in their face, they will just play the game in a more intuitive immersive way.
Again, I'm not saying one way is 'better' than the other, just that I would really like this to be one of the ways that Pantheon bucks the modern trend, differentiates itself and emphasises the immersive experience, not the metagame. People will, of course, still be able to play it that way, but it's a matter of how 'in your face' VR put it and I really hope it is simply *not* put in our faces.
Those who don't care about immersion can always dig deeper, but for those that prize immersion more, it is very hard to ignore the unimmersive.
Larirawiel said:The effects of every stat will be reverse engineered very quickly. I give the game two weeks and then everything is known and you will see first class guides on icy-veins.com etc. So there is no reason to hide it. :) Optimizing the fun out of a game, the MMORPG crowd is very good at it, unfortunately. And yes, i prefer a more complicated stat system. But please do not implement stat duplicates, that do basically the same.
Cheers
IMO:
Correct. That reverse-engineering will be done during Alpha/Beta testing, because in a game based entirely on Math (like D&D, Pathfinder, and many other gaming frameworks), it's not too surprising that the players want to know how the math works. :) And in most Math-based FUN gaming frameworks that have been around for 20+ years, all the formulas are public, because, as you say, there's no reason to hide it.
Ranarius said:Whether people are able to figure out the forumulas or not isn't even the point for me. The point, for me, is that the game itself doesn't spit all that info at me while I'm in the game world.
I think this is the same view as Diposalist, and I can completely understand that view. But as some of us have mentioned, the information is going to be out there, either in the game or from a 3rd party source - the difference there is that if it isn't in the game, the players that choose to not use the 3rd party source will eventually be at a disadvantage and potentially subjected to unwarranted negative social pressure and requirements to enjoy the game as intended. i.e. (if you don't use Discord (or abc 3rd party source) you can't participate in xyz).
My desire for full disclosure within the game is to circumvent as much desire for 3rd party applications as possible. The mechanics will absolutely be known. One can always choose to not look at them if they don't wish to know.
The problem with that logic is that they'd have to put pretty much everything in the game to meet that standard, which means they'd be making a completely different game with no mystery, no adventure, no questions, only answers.
I personally prefer the option to just not use 3rd party sites than have VR build a game where everything that will eventually be available from 3rd party sites is embedded into the game.
It's probably a tough line to find, I hope VR does a good job finding a good balance.
I hear ya @Ranarius. But I personally don't see attribute selection (basic charcter development) being something that should be a mystery, adventure, or require asking questions (or scouring forums and 3rd party sources). I (and many others) want to spend my game time exploring, adventuring and finding real mysteries of the game "content", not questioning the game "mechanics".
Ranarius said:Whether people are able to figure out the forumulas or not isn't even the point for me. The point, for me, is that the game itself doesn't spit all that info at me while I'm in the game world.
Developers that hide how/what stats affect things do so out of fear because when players have more information the more likely players will catch (and call out) errors, mistakes and outright lies. Coding errors, mistakes and whatnot caught by players makes the developers look bad so of course they will obsfuscate as much as possible 'to keep the mystery'. Its a way for them to cover their own butts.
How many players make decisions based upon incorrect information because developers deliberately choose to hide things but then find out their initial decision screwed their character? What those players do then is complain on the forums and that just stirs up more problems than had the developers been truthful in the first place.
I'm a player who wants to know the rules, wants to know what things (like stats) affect so that I can make the right decisions for the class I'm choosing to play and how I intend to play it.
Is there a best of both worlds? I know back in the old days there used to be instruction manuels so that stuff could be left ouf of the game world. These days it seems like most people are opposed to reading instructions haha. So maybe they should just publish most of that stuff in their official site?
Ranarius said:Is there a best of both worlds? I know back in the old days there used to be instruction manuels so that stuff could be left ouf of the game world. These days it seems like most people are opposed to reading instructions haha. So maybe they should just publish most of that stuff in their official site?
This is where in-game conversations a new character could have with their class trainer or be directed by their class trainer to books that a character can read in local libraries. Naturally someone will pull that information and shove it onto a wiki but at least it is offered in-game and players can decide to engage with it or not.
@Vandraad - that is a great compromise (having an NPC/book that explains/teaches game mechanics). As long as players were allowed to interact with that NPC/book before allocating any attributes at least. Perhaps the book could be gifted from the NPC to carry/store for the player to later refer to... if they so choose.
Totally on board with information like that being available in game if it's in a format like that. Anything that feels natural in the gaming world.
"Based on our extensive research over the years, this is what we've learned about the magical weapons on our planet...." etc.