Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

What should we see when we inspect other characters?

    • 144 posts
    September 10, 2022 3:07 PM PDT

    I've seen game that handle inspecting in different ways. Some show you everything from their level to their gear. While others only show you the person's class and title, plus a bio that they themselves wrote.

    What should we be able to see when we inspect other characters? Seeing a person's gear could lead to discriminating against them in a group, but it could also lead to a veteran player helping out by crafting/buying them upgrades. What are the pros and cons? Should we even be able to inspect people to begin with?

     

    • 438 posts
    September 10, 2022 5:02 PM PDT
    I personally liked the original EQ of seeing what’s equipped as far as name of items only (no stats).
    • 888 posts
    September 10, 2022 8:34 PM PDT

    I very much want to see a player written biography. A custom crest/  flag / insignia would be nice, but isn't nearly as important as a bio.

    I would also like a designated 'home town' that can changed by players (if they have sufficient faction).

    I don't think we need to see equipment or detailed stats.  Equipment can always be dropped in chat if the person wants to share.

    • 2756 posts
    September 11, 2022 4:05 AM PDT

    I personally don't see that an /inspect function should exist.

    If you want to know what people are wearing and you don't recognise it, you ask.

    If you want to know someone's background/biography, you ask.

    I'd like people to be encouraged to engage with each other.

    Also, I want Pantheon to feel like a world as much as possible and as less like a 'game' as possible.

    As much as possible, I'd like our 'avatars' to only know what they would know as a person existing in Terminus.

    Also, I've seen detailed knowledge of others' gear mostly be used to exclude from groups/raids/guilds.

    And before anyone says "transmog", I don't see why anyone needs to know what others are equipped with. Maybe on PvP servers, but not on PvE.


    This post was edited by disposalist at September 11, 2022 4:07 AM PDT
    • 839 posts
    September 11, 2022 6:32 AM PDT
    It would be nice for crafters if their name appeared as the maker
    • 888 posts
    September 11, 2022 7:44 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    I personally don't see that an /inspect function should exist.

    If you want to know what people are wearing and you don't recognise it, you ask.

    If you want to know someone's background/biography, you ask.

    I'd like people to be encouraged to engage with each other.

    My personal experience is that having biographies encourages social interaction.  I always read everyone's bios and, when inspired by something I see in one, will use it as a starting point for engagement. And I've had many players sent me messages about my characters' bios.  In games without bios, I find myself interacting less and less invested in characters.  Sure, I could ask everyone I see about their character's background,  but it feels awkward unless I've been grouping with them for quite a while.

    I also really enjoy writing bios. They help me hone my character as well as help make my character feel more real. This makes the game feel more sticky to me, where I feel more connected and more like part of a real world than a game.

    • 3852 posts
    September 11, 2022 7:54 AM PDT

    I agree with disposalist almost entirely.

    On the point Feastycentral raised and disposalists mentioned - is it really a bad thing for group leaders to be able to exclude people based on gear? I ask this as someone usually near the lower end of the gear curve and more likely to be excluded than included.

    Firstly - we often discuss the benefits of giving players choices. One choice, of course, is to set up groups that can go through content faster and with fewer wipes.

    Secondly - if content is challenging groups can and will wipe because of weak players, weak characters, or weak gear on otherwise strong characters. Other than for getting practice at the dungeon - two hours followed by a wipe doesn't even benefit the poorly geared characters much less the better ones who would have succeeded if the group were more "elitist".

    Thirdly - and focusing finally on the inspection option - this is most often used to see if players are telling the truth when they tell the group leader "sure my hunter has good enough gear". This isn't just a matter of judgment - people often outright *lie* to get into groups. Is it a bad thing to let the group leader boot the liars? Which is why, in LOTRO, groups often form with only non-anonymous characters allowed - because a sad number of people do lie.

    Those of us with crappy gear have the option of building the gear up and perhaps the most common way to do this is in a guild and with the guild's help. In other words being social and grouping. Is that a bad thing?

    In the thread on item levels I objected to characters having an item level score in part because it made it too easy to set up perhaps arbitrary numerical thresholds and exclude or boot people even one point below them. But that doesn't mean I think gear is irrelevant or leaders have no responsibility to set up a group that can actually do the content. Just as a responsible leader will "exclude" a dps class if the group is going to wipe without a healer or tank in the open slot.

     


    This post was edited by dorotea at September 11, 2022 7:59 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    September 11, 2022 8:03 AM PDT

    Counterfleche said:

    disposalist said:

    I personally don't see that an /inspect function should exist.

    If you want to know what people are wearing and you don't recognise it, you ask.

    If you want to know someone's background/biography, you ask.

    I'd like people to be encouraged to engage with each other.

    My personal experience is that having biographies encourages social interaction.  I always read everyone's bios and, when inspired by something I see in one, will use it as a starting point for engagement. And I've had many players sent me messages about my characters' bios.  In games without bios, I find myself interacting less and less invested in characters.  Sure, I could ask everyone I see about their character's background,  but it feels awkward unless I've been grouping with them for quite a while.

    I also really enjoy writing bios. They help me hone my character as well as help make my character feel more real. This makes the game feel more sticky to me, where I feel more connected and more like part of a real world than a game.

    I wouldn't mind the bios thing, actually, and though a character shouldn't just 'know', it could be said that it is an inoffensive time saver to have a /bio command or whatever to enter and view others' bios.

    If you want people to talk to you about it, you can just type "Ask me" in the bio hehe.

    • 2756 posts
    September 11, 2022 8:18 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    I agree with disposalist almost entirely.

    On the point Feastycentral raised and disposalists mentioned - is it really a bad thing for group leaders to be able to exclude people based on gear? I ask this as someone usually near the lower end of the gear curve and more likely to be excluded than included.

    Firstly - we often discuss the benefits of giving players choices. One choice, of course, is to set up groups that can go through content faster and with fewer wipes.

    Secondly - if content is challenging groups can and will wipe because of weak players, weak characters, or weak gear on otherwise strong characters. Other than for getting practice at the dungeon - two hours followed by a wipe doesn't even benefit the poorly geared characters much less the better ones who would have succeeded if the group were more "elitist".

    Thirdly - and focusing finally on the inspection option - this is most often used to see if players are telling the truth when they tell the group leader "sure my hunter has good enough gear". This isn't just a matter of judgment - people often outright *lie* to get into groups. Is it a bad thing to let the group leader boot the liars? Which is why, in LOTRO, groups often form with only non-anonymous characters allowed - because a sad number of people do lie.

    Those of us with crappy gear have the option of building the gear up and perhaps the most common way to do this is in a guild and with the guild's help. In other words being social and grouping. Is that a bad thing?

    In the thread on item levels I objected to characters having an item level score in part because it made it too easy to set up perhaps arbitrary numerical thresholds and exclude or boot people even one point below them. But that doesn't mean I think gear is irrelevant or leaders have no responsibility to set up a group that can actually do the content. Just as a responsible leader will "exclude" a dps class if the group is going to wipe without a healer or tank in the open slot.

    I understand the argument, but I would say it way more often leads to problems and arguments than it is needed. Much like the iLevel concept, except the /inspect is even more prone to subjective, inaccurate and arbitrary decisions than gear iLevel, even.

    No, it's not unreasonable for a group leader, or anyone, to ask someone joining them on a particularly difficult and dangerous escapade to be well geared.

    Yes, people might lie about their gear and, if it's not obvious from the visual appearance of the gear to determine this, then not having an /inspect to back this up makes things harder.

    But this is no more a problem than going on a difficult adventure and asking group members to be experienced and skilled.

    It's a social game. There are interactions and consequences. If someone lies about their skill, experience and, yes, their gear then that should impact their reputation.

    When someone plays badly we know they aren't skilled. When someone makes lots of mistakes, we know they aren't experienced. When someone takes lots of damage or can't do much damage or dsoesn't resist things well, or whatever, we know they lied about having good gear.

    It's not a perfect way of knowing, but I don't think it should be and it doesn't mean we need a gamey system to allow others to somehow assess skill, experience or gear.

    • 9115 posts
    September 12, 2022 3:39 AM PDT

    I have promoted this topic as part of my CM content; please continue the discussion and have fun! :)

    "Hot Topic - What should we see when we inspect other characters? Join this community-created thread on the official forums to have your say https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13967/what-should-we-see-when-we-inspect-other-characters #MMORPG #indiegames"

    • 1 posts
    September 12, 2022 5:51 AM PDT

    *No Inspect feature - promotes social interaction

    *Inspect feature with Bio - promotes social interaction and RPing

    *When you start adding equipment titles (even stats), people are less inclined to chat amongst each other and opt for a quick (and almost impolite) rush to you, scan of your equipment, and hasty exit without word.

    I feel that adding stats breaks immersion. The internet will be rife with stat websites, let us ALT-TAB and go there if that's what we seek.

    If an encounter is so challenging that one player's gear can make/break it, then the group should be composed of a team of individuals that have played together before. (Ergo, guilds...)

    My vote - show names, titles, bio and equipment titles without stats

    • 3237 posts
    September 12, 2022 6:27 AM PDT

    I would prefer if players had the option to disable /inspect on their character, if desired.  Bonus points if there are separate fields for bio/gear that can be individually toggled.  EQOA was the only MMORPG I have played where an /inspect feature didn't exist and I loved what that translated to in regards to RP and player interactions.  Player agency FTW!


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 12, 2022 6:29 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    September 12, 2022 6:34 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I would prefer if players had the option to disable /inspect on their character, if desired.  EQOA was the only MMORPG I have played where an /inspect feature didn't exist and I loved what that translated to in regards to RP and player interactions.  Player agency FTW!

    This reminds me of another issue with /inspect though.

    If it is optional, and people turn it off, others make assumptions about why.

    They assume you are rude or anti-social or secretive. If they are the sort to make judgements about gear (and let's face it, that's what /inspect is used for a lot) then they will simply exclude you because you have disabled it.

    Even if they are the curious type, ordinarily, if the norm is to have /inspect be available, when it is not, they are unlikely to take the time to ask instead.

    *Maybe* if the default is to have privacy set on, then it will be accepted as normal and /inspect will be the exception, but if it is presented, like in many games, that you have to switch on /anonymous mode to avoid being /inspected, players will see it and you as being difficult.

    • 793 posts
    September 12, 2022 7:27 AM PDT

    I think what annoyed me most in EQ was that you got a message "So-and-so is inspecting you", which just felt weird, I don't really care and prefer to not even be informed, even worse was knowing the number of times I was trying to click near near another player, and accidentally clicking on them and the inspect window would open up, and knowing they just got that message, even though it was purely accidental.

    • 627 posts
    September 12, 2022 9:08 AM PDT
    I like information and would like to see more info rather than less. For me its not a bad thing to know stats on items and be abel to see other stats, maybe where the player put hes advanced points would be cool or what skills/loadout a player uses.
    • 31 posts
    September 12, 2022 9:28 AM PDT

    "Inspect" is the very worst way of doing this.

    Why do I want some dweeb running up to me and trying to read the tag inside of my underwear?


    This post was edited by Reiver at September 12, 2022 9:28 AM PDT
    • 57 posts
    September 12, 2022 11:13 AM PDT

    I miss bios. It's bizarre to me how they were such a standard feature from MUDs all the way through EQ/AO/CoH/EVE/SWG, but then quickly disappeared through 2004-2014, right along with the dilution of the genre in general.

    • 810 posts
    September 12, 2022 2:57 PM PDT

    I am a big fan of inspection being tied as much to YOUR PC as it is to the person you are inspecting.  Effectively a PC Dossier.

    I really enjoyed the Eve system of players having an option to take notes on other players.  Set personal factions, guild factions, etc. 

     

    My ideal inspect would be seeing their name, guild name, title (possibly with a description of who bestowed it), armor, reading their bio.

    You then see your personally set faction you gave them and can change however you want.  You also see a personally set guild faction in the same idea.  You see notes on the player, you see notes on their guild, you see your guilds notes on the player and your guilds notes on their guild.


    This post was edited by Jobeson at September 12, 2022 3:02 PM PDT
    • 119 posts
    September 12, 2022 3:42 PM PDT

    I am torn.

     

    I think either no inspections as one less thing to develop and kinda annoying having people snooping at gear.

    Or fully featured stats on everything to make it really cool when looking at a top player.

    • 209 posts
    September 12, 2022 10:35 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    EQOA was the only MMORPG I have played where an /inspect feature didn't exist and I loved what that translated to in regards to RP and player interactions.  Player agency FTW!

    I too am a former citizen of EQOA Norrath, and I miss my EQOA days when gear wasn't nitpicked over like it is now. As oneADseven said, EQOA had no /inspect feature, and I honestly don't feel a good mmo needs one. I would be so happy to not have any inspect feature at all when it comes to gear in Pantheon, especially considering what the devs have said about how they want to design items so that there isn't one Best in Slot item for each slot, but rather many different combinations that can work well for different character builds. (I'm paraphrasing, but I think that's the gist of it.) I feel that the ability to inspect a player's item stats is one of those newer generation mmo features that leads to players viewing other players as resources instead of comrades, and I don't think it's necessary in a well-designed game that doesn't seek to put the player experience on rails.

    Of course, items and stats should matter, and have a measurable impact on encounters. I'm just not convinced they need to have the dramatic impact we're used to from WoW-like games. Where that happy medium lies is for the devs to decide, but if a game gets to the point where stats are so important that people want to know what your gear is before they will even invite you to a group or raid, I think it's already headed down a dark path.

    • 2 posts
    September 13, 2022 4:20 AM PDT

    I personally think having a very simple window appearing after inspecting with the persons gear only.

    other information such as faction/rank/bio can be viewed via different tools such as searching for members etc.

    • 55 posts
    September 13, 2022 8:21 AM PDT

    As the topic has veered far into the no category, I must say I like being able to inspect people and have no issue being inspected. I think the "you are being inspected" should be removed, it just promotes conflict. Also, no inspection via click, have to use a command, it just gets in the way if it's too easy. I'm of the mindset that the game should provide as much information as possible short of spoilers. The more I have to look up guides or read a wiki, the more disconnected I am. Being able to see gear names and stats, and ask how to get it in game is very helpful.

    I'm all for people writing backstory and bio, but it's a bit beyond my skill set. If I do RP, it's basic, not an elaborate new identity. I'm playing a game, not writing a book(not that i could).

    • 1273 posts
    September 13, 2022 9:12 AM PDT

    I would be fine with being able to see the "brand" of the items worn on the outside (not the OP uber underwear because you can't even see them....unless the person is sagging!)

    Whatever your character can actually see you should be able to "see" upon inspection.  Maybe the longer you inspect the more information you can gather, but the most intimate things should only be gleaned by having a conversation with the person you are attempting to inspect.  

    • 86 posts
    September 13, 2022 9:31 AM PDT

    I'd prefer no inspection of items, but if it was indeed placed in I'd hope one would be able to opt out with a check box somewhere, a Character bio and portrait I don't mind at all.

    • 612 posts
    September 14, 2022 6:15 AM PDT

    Personally I feel that having an inspect system is a good thing. In fact I think that VR should have a full website that let's people look up characters any time even when not logged into the game where anyone can see your characters full Gear, Acclimation Glyphs, Stats, Crafting Skills, Spell Masteries, Achievements (if these exist), and possibly even Attunements or Keys (if these exist).

    For those who worry about people using your gear to prejudice against you, this is going to happen anyway regardless of any inspect feature. Taking out such a feature simply to try and avoid toxic people from shunning you because your gear is less than them isn't going to work and just blocks a useful feature for no good reason.

    Just my opinions of course.