which may beget TLC. (Trivial Loot code) and No Drop, and Lore and...removing the thought or impetus to even think of selling in game stuff- I mean, why? its only pixels, right? The emperor has no clothes, All good people learned that lesson at an early age and all fans of the Movie "Amelie" also understand for that was the kind of wisdom her friend tested the photobooth repair guy. If you agree to those things, then, you agree to all that and wont be selling or even thinking of doing it. Except to merchants. For currency will be for fluff, immersion, Star Trek. Fun, a game. Want something? you get it. All on an even plane. Better develop those social skills.
Oh, I get it now.
StoneFish said:What if raids gave no loot or gold? You just get a little participation ribbon that is shown on you page and can be displayed at the raid headquarters. You raid for the fun of the comradeship and challenge. The best loot is from crafters. Raids can also be marked on your weapons and gear. If you have a 'spoon of exquisite scooping' that has been used in a raid X amount of times it is indicated and thus that spoon goes up in value.
By extension you could ask that of any content...why should anything give gold or loot? Simple..because without all that the game would be boring AF and people would not play for very long.
So we're in agreement, raids should be only for the experience and not for the Skar investment class who want to corner the market in loot futures. Or we can allow the raids to become an engine for guild capital growth then VR can update the system to turn all gold into banana nut bread thus reaching utopia. Followed by a world wide reset a week later and we all start over as naked noobs with no bread or coin. Just so we are clear I would continue to play. I like the playing and chitchat and smashing of the rats, not the gold hording. I honestly hope to be in a game where a god comes down and turns all the gold worthless and causes massive disruption. The cries of the wealthy would be like sweet songs to my ear. Now I'm off to see my accountant about hiding my wealth in the Caymans, or maybe the Isla of Man, I like when the bikes go zooming by, zoom zoom
To be clear, I don't want to see raids becoming something we have to buy in to if we aren't a poop-socking member of Uber guild. But I do see a gold bidding system as better than DKP for most players.
disposalist said:I see the appeal of it's simplicity, but it's effectively the same thing, no? DKPs are earned in raids - spread evenly amongst the participants - and then used to 'buy' raid loot at the end or in later raids.
The difference is, gold can be obtained elsewhere, outside the guild raid environment, including via RMT, and cash rich folks that have never raided and 'earned' raid loot could buy into raids and outbid those that had been on the raid and 'earned' the items a million times over.
There is a difference because gold has actual value while DKP is valueless unless spent. I never raided much so my bias is towards ensuring occasional participants get something for their contribution. DKP was a clever solution to the original scarcity problem but it's fundamentally flawed because it's not an in-game item. DKP goes away if you leave your guild and doesn't help you at all if you mostly PUG.
Gold bidding has these advantages:
Personally, I thing loot shards is the best way to handle raid loot. Everyone gets a fragment of the magic item and once you accumulate enough, you get it crafted into the Uber item. Raid loot shards would be different for each raid and each piece would contain a small bonus. Players would be free to mix and match shards to create weapons / armor with the combo of bonusus they want (or use all of one shard type to rebuild the original item). This would also let them use the sharfs in the weapon / armor type they use, so most classes will benefit from any raid. Also, the shards can be traded, so they have value.
There can still be some extra items dropped, like raid weapons / armor crafting patterns and other items so there is still the thrill of exciting rare drops.
The most wonderful thing of all of this is that each guild will be allowed to set up their system however they see fit. And each player will have the option of joining (or not joining) a guild based on those systems. If I detest the idea of selling raid slots for in game gold then I won't be joining a guild that does that. If I think it's a genius idea then I'll be starting a guild that does that.
Ranarius said:The most wonderful thing of all of this is that each guild will be allowed to set up their system however they see fit. And each player will have the option of joining (or not joining) a guild based on those systems. If I detest the idea of selling raid slots for in game gold then I won't be joining a guild that does that. If I think it's a genius idea then I'll be starting a guild that does that.
And this is exactly how it should be..players deciding for themselves if they wish to avail themselves of a given opportunity. You want to buy a raid slot or raid dropped item and you have some money you want to spend? Go for it. You absolutely detest the idea then don't. You're free to do what you want and that is the best approach..to let the players decide.
StoneFish said:Can anyone point to a link, graphic, article that breaks down the pros and cons of this issue? I wish to learn more?
This guy talked about in youtube mostly listed issues https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_l2NQLJCXw
this an old article https://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/explaining-the-gold-dkp-run-everyones-a-winner/ ; became more common now 13 years later ..and raid leader will take 20 to 30% of total Pot .
at the ends its bring more harm then good IMO
I couldn't care less even if it's a rampant behaviour exposing both selfishness and lack of playing for the sole fact of amusement, but since everything in Pantheon will be contested thoses money making behaviour will heavily drive the avaliability of content for everyone, and make the experience tainted for everyone that doesn't want to partake in such or is not ultra buffed to be taking part of them.
Mauvais_Oeil said:I couldn't care less even if it's a rampant behaviour exposing both selfishness and lack of playing for the sole fact of amusement, but since everything in Pantheon will be contested thoses money making behaviour will heavily drive the avaliability of content for everyone, and make the experience tainted for everyone that doesn't want to partake in such or is not ultra buffed to be taking part of them.
Knowing the mechanic of random NPC spawns in a certain area (For instance; Fion, in Blackrose keep) I took "everything will be contested" to mean: one group enters Blackrose keep and declares the entire zone belongs to them. To your point, one conglomerate of groups (like certain profiled Oceanic & sophomoric "gold farmers" or child labor) could dominate blackrose keep, each acting like "cells". In which case, the mechanic of Diminishing returns may be a deterent but again to your point may end up like the classic south Park episode where they are killing boars for 1pt exp?. In this case, playing the numbers for certain drops. Which in my opinion would also argue well for TLC or No trade/Lore or one item per account and such items cannot be shared or eschanged via shared bank (for that iss when I saw it to have begun, that later begat loot boxes in its current evolution state) . If that is the case, then it is only VR that will benefit for such a conglomerate will have to create new accounts and in so doing, also pay a sub per account. Perhaps a 1 character per ISP (barring proof of family or household like Netflix) might also help assuage such concerns?
Luk-lin yeah ok fine. it still trips off my tongue as "loose" but vee?. Vee?, seriously? It seems it should be Vye- hey! look at Arcane, see? Here comes vee? no, Vi (e) short for violet in arcane, Die/vie. to-may-to to-mah-to, lol.
So to attempt to boil it down to a simpletons level so that even I can understand the issue: the overall concern is that the motivation of greed for power and status will hinder the environment/game enjoyment of significant members of the population. The game tenants seek to provide a challenge in mystery and mechanics while encouraging group play. A guild can act as a corporation in it's quest for power and riches but it must not be allowed to detrimentally disrupt the economy or otherwise take possession of content.
You need a law of the land, and it has to be enforced.
Can tax can be placed on the action or group?. A tax can be increased or lowered. Death and taxes after all, true staples of life.
My layman's concern is that greed is often too tangled up with winning or achievement, and to allow a practice to cause a FOMO for the population is to inject envy and behavior changes that fester and poison the game overall.
Risk vs reward is still a desired balancing component for this game and it's goals. If it becomes obvious that a guild is monopolizing a raid for the singular purpose of running an enterprise of capital gain then the guild is itself raided for gold and goods. There can be warnings and fines to alert the guild officers that the gods of the realms are not happy.
I hope whatever schemes are devised to "game" the system are controlled and governed by a firm and remorseless hand.
Counterfleche said:Gold bidding has these advantages:
Everyone gets an in-game reward for effort
They do with DKP as well. Everyone gets DKP if they contribute to a raid.
Counterfleche said:Your reward doesn't go away if you leave a guild (or piss of the guild leader).
DKP will be a built-in system in Pantheon, so maybe they will travel with you?
Or perhaps the whole point is that you *should* be loyal to the guild that enabled you to raid?
Also, if you piss off a guild leader, then your gold allocation for the raid could also not be forthcoming. That same guild leader giving themselves 30% of the take...
Counterfleche said:It's not tracked outside of game by players who might make mistakes or try to cheat.
It is if it's a built-in system in Pantheon it could well have guild transparency and/or oversight built in.
Counterfleche said:It's auto-balancing. If some super rich players outbid everyone, everyone else gets a larger gold quantity because of the high bids.
So is DKP to some extent. When players acrue huge amounts of DKP they end up bidding against each other and paying huge amounts of DKP. This normalises the available amounts of DKP so those newer to the guild can start winning items. Just thinking off the top of my head there. There could be tweaks to DKP that would help, yes.
Counterfleche said:Personally, I thing loot shards is the best way to handle raid loot. Everyone gets a fragment of the magic item and once you accumulate enough, you get it crafted into the Uber item. Raid loot shards would be different for each raid and each piece would contain a small bonus. Players would be free to mix and match shards to create weapons / armor with the combo of bonusus they want (or use all of one shard type to rebuild the original item). This would also let them use the sharfs in the weapon / armor type they use, so most classes will benefit from any raid. Also, the shards can be traded, so they have value.
There can still be some extra items dropped, like raid weapons / armor crafting patterns and other items so there is still the thrill of exciting rare drops.
An interesting idea, but if done right DKP are effectively a similar in-game raid loot currency. And guilds don't *have* to use it, of course and might use their own or tweak the in-game DKP or whatever. Maybe they could use gold as well? Even allow the buying of DKP for gold given tio the guild when they join up? Again, just thinking off the top of my head.
Your loot shard system sounds non-optional and, since they are tradeable, then you may as well just use gold, since a 'raid loot shard' will simply = X gold. Except in this case, the rich players won't even have to go on the raid to bid on raid loot, they will just buy shards in the auction house later.
As I've said, I know DKP systems have their problems. I have been a critic in the past, as it leads to those that don't raid often feeling they have no chance of obtaining rare raid loot, even if it drops in the raid they were at.
Related to the NBG thread, the only truly fair and unbiased system is random allocation of course, but, especially in raids, that feeling of unfairness when say you've been on the same raid 100 times hoping for a particular drop and then someone turns up and gets it via a lucky random roll on their first time, is excruciating. Guilds tend to want to do what's best for the guild and equipping regular raid-goers with better gear is an understandable desire, so a system, like DKP, that perhaps biases toward those that raid often, is pretty understandable. Though items randomly allocated is fairer, it would lead to *much* resentment when a newcomer loots and chooses to keep a rare item.
In groups, especially PUGs, the emphasis is totally different. To allocate loot to players randomly is utterly fair and for them to pass it on to someone else would be totally at their discretion. I'm sure you would often see that discetion used, but there should be little pressure or social repercussion, unlike in a guild where to act in the best interest of the guild would be way more pressured and expected.
DKP ensures that, if you've been on a raid with the same folks 100 times, you will all 100 of you have had the same amount of loot 'chance', effectively, as you all have had the same amount of DKP allocated. If someone has been on the raid with your guild just a few times, they have much less chance. They may have to go many more times, like you have, before they get a chance. Frustrating for newcomers and maybe there is some tweak that would make it more 'welcoming', but all-in-all it sounds pretty fair.
DKP is like deferring and evening out fair random allocation by handing out equal portions 'loot chance' to players that were involved which they can store or spend.
Also, as a final note, they whole newcomers feeling left out effect is usually totally mitigated by them getting showered with hand-me-downs and crafting components and all manner of not-BIS-but-great stuff until they *do* build up enough DKP to join in more fully.
Going to remain a minority concerning this issue. I'm going to continue to adhere to a philosophy of representative authority based upon nothing but my vote for who I choose as my leadership at any one time or any one activity. Someone gets the loot and then distributes the loot. Trust and betrayal are part of life and I accept that. Honor and reputation are tested and stressed many times, every day in most cases, and I want that to be observable in Pantheon as well. I want to trust in someone's judgement, I do not want to trust in an algorithm or calculation. Structure is need up to a point and that point is when the power a group or individual holds is so great that choice is no longer an option for change. I'm open to having my minded changed on this but I want dynamic leadership and complexity in the social realm, I want to judge the performance of a leader. The raid can pick the "treasurers" for loot allocation and if someone feels shorted then how that grievance is handled is part of my enjoyment. I don't want randoms on a raid to finish up, take their gold and leave. I want trading and chatter and relationships to be made and damaged.
I'm happy to remain a minority on this, I want to be part of a crazy magical world of personalities and parties, not jobs and chores based on the spreadsheet numbers dictated by an algorithm.
This human wants to play a game, not game a financial rewards structure.
disposalist said:
I think one of the things you're missing on GDKP is they are exclusively for PUGs. It's not very reasonable to compare it to a DKP system that guilds use for loot distribution between steady raids over time. Some guilds that focus on GDKP run with a core that is maybe 50-75% of what a raid will require to ensure they can "carry" players that are there purely for buying gear. The express goal of GDKPs is to maximize the "pot" by filling the raid with PUG buyers with a lot of gold to spend. You don't achieve that by bringing the same people more than a few times.
Besides that, DKP is largely considered a relic of the past. The vast majority of guilds these days use some form of Loot Council for loot distribution within their raids.
eunichron said:disposalist said:I think one of the things you're missing on GDKP is they are exclusively for PUGs. It's not very reasonable to compare it to a DKP system that guilds use for loot distribution between steady raids over time. Some guilds that focus on GDKP run with a core that is maybe 50-75% of what a raid will require to ensure they can "carry" players that are there purely for buying gear. The express goal of GDKPs is to maximize the "pot" by filling the raid with PUG buyers with a lot of gold to spend. You don't achieve that by bringing the same people more than a few times.
Besides that, DKP is largely considered a relic of the past. The vast majority of guilds these days use some form of Loot Council for loot distribution within their raids.
I don't think I was missing that, though I didn't know that it was *always* done for selling to rich non-guild members in order to enrich the guild.
That's one of the aspects I discussed as a bad thing and if that is really the main case then, yeah, this is a bad thing.
Ok, guilds aren't upsetting thier own members, as presumably, they all sign up to it in order to get rich (though the raid leader is getting a boosted share? And I imagine it highly possible that some guild members would rather not sell items they might want, but feel they have to agree to remain in the guild), but it is still meaning that the guild is circumventing the No Drop or Bind On Loot mechanic of many raid drops and also circumventing the whole high challenge level of raids which makes raids and raid items special.
Correct me if you think I'm wrong but it seems guilds using GDKP are pretty much utilising an exploit for the purposes of greed, and in the process damaging the prestige of raids and the game economy.
StoneFish said:Going to remain a minority concerning this issue. I'm going to continue to adhere to a philosophy of representative authority based upon nothing but my vote for who I choose as my leadership at any one time or any one activity. Someone gets the loot and then distributes the loot. Trust and betrayal are part of life and I accept that. Honor and reputation are tested and stressed many times, every day in most cases, and I want that to be observable in Pantheon as well. I want to trust in someone's judgement, I do not want to trust in an algorithm or calculation. Structure is need up to a point and that point is when the power a group or individual holds is so great that choice is no longer an option for change. I'm open to having my minded changed on this but I want dynamic leadership and complexity in the social realm, I want to judge the performance of a leader. The raid can pick the "treasurers" for loot allocation and if someone feels shorted then how that grievance is handled is part of my enjoyment. I don't want randoms on a raid to finish up, take their gold and leave. I want trading and chatter and relationships to be made and damaged.
I'm happy to remain a minority on this, I want to be part of a crazy magical world of personalities and parties, not jobs and chores based on the spreadsheet numbers dictated by an algorithm.
This human wants to play a game, not game a financial rewards structure.
I'm not sure you're in a minority even if it seems some game communities are taking up schemes like GDKP in some numbers.
I would also prefer a loot council and, even though I've defended DKP in this thread, this is only in comparison to GDKP.
I can't imagine getting to lofty levels of power where my guild can beat raids with less than max numbers and concluding we should then take "passengers" in order to get rich even if it means blatantly circumvented intended restrictions and degrading the worth of the raid (and the larger economy) for everyone else.
I can well imagine Blizzard not giving a damn, but would some other companies would, especially VR, and would act to address it.
I would also hope that it isn't something that would see popularity in Pantheon player communities, as they wish reputation to matter, but that would partly be as a result of VR giving a damn and giving good guidance and taking action as necessary.
disposalist said:I don't think I was missing that, though I didn't know that it was *always* done for selling to rich non-guild members in order to enrich the guild.
That's one of the aspects I discussed as a bad thing and if that is really the main case then, yeah, this is a bad thing.
Ok, guilds aren't upsetting thier own members, as presumably, they all sign up to it in order to get rich (though the raid leader is getting a boosted share? And I imagine it highly possible that some guild members would rather not sell items they might want, but feel they have to agree to remain in the guild)
This isn't really a consideration because everyone joins a GDKP with an understanding that everything is for sale, and no one is guaranteed anything. This means that, for example, if an item drops that is restricted to the Rogue class, anyone else, including Magicians or Warriors are free to bid on it. If a Warrior wins out over the Rogue, that's just too bad for the Rogue. I have witnessed this exact scenario happen multiple times, most often by people trying to inflate an item's cost to boost the raid's gold pot (bigger pot = bigger payout).
but it is still meaning that the guild is circumventing the No Drop or Bind On Loot mechanic of many raid drops and also circumventing the whole high challenge level of raids which makes raids and raid items special.
Is it really circumventing if the mechanics if the game allows for it? WoW allows for Master Looters that are responsible for distributing items. Whoever wins the item, persuant to whatever loot system the raid has agreed to, the Master Looter is responsible for ensuring the item goes to the right player. WoW Classic introduced a mechanic that allows any items that drop in raids to be tradable for 2 hours after being looted. That's made it even easier for GDKP organizers to handle bidding and distribution of loot, as they can clear a raid in 1-1.5 hours and do all of the bidding at the end of the raid.
Correct me if you think I'm wrong but it seems guilds using GDKP are pretty much utilising an exploit for the purposes of greed, and in the process damaging the prestige of raids and the game economy.
It's questionable what value raids have in a game like Classic WoW anyway, with it being a "solved" game, and much easier to successfully clear a raid today than it was back in 2004-2008. With that said, GBid/GDKP raids have been around since as long as MMOs have been, I know for a fact they happened in EverQuest and Vanilla WoW when they were new games. They are just more prominent now that the content in Classic WoW is so easy compared to 15-20 years ago.
@disposalist, If DKP is built into the game and useable in any raid, that makes it much better but still not great. It's still a pyramid scheme. I don't agree that DKP has inherent value like gold. Perhaps an in-game DKP system will be fine, though I really hope it can be built in a way that feels authentic to the lore and not like a gamified system with its own currency. I really dislike how MMOs tend to get more and more faux currency systems as they age.
Counterfleche said:@disposalist, If DKP is built into the game and useable in any raid, that makes it much better but still not great. It's still a pyramid scheme. I don't agree that DKP has inherent value like gold. Perhaps an in-game DKP system will be fine, though I really hope it can be built in a way that feels authentic to the lore and not like a gamified system with its own currency. I really dislike how MMOs tend to get more and more faux currency systems as they age.
I agree. To be honest I'd rather VR implement a fantastic Loot Council system in the guild UI, so good that everyone wants to use it, though I think that is how DKPs came about - Loot councils wanting a way to keep track of who has done the most to contribute and attempt to reward appropriately. Of course, guild loot should be allocated on more than just a strict points basis and this is perhaps where blind reliance on a DKP system can lead to problems. Anyway...
As has been pointed out above, WoW has many problems and the GDKP thing is almost a symptom, not a cause.
I hope that VR manange something - I can't imagine what, though - that makes raids a more 'normal' thing to do and a less 'elite' activity, even though they must, of course, still be a good challenge - perhaps the ultimate challenge, due to organising mutliple groups - in the game.
I would be nice if somehow amassing gold by whatever (sometimes unpleasant) means necessary in order to obtain whatever the BIS gear is wasn't such an obsessive focus and then a lot of these kind of phenomena won't be issues in Pantheon.
Like I say, I can't imagine what, though, when players, especially these days, apparently, always seek to 'game' any game in order to 'beat' it and other players as a priority.
Maybe the death penalty for circumventing the spirit of "No Drop" items and radioactive gold so that if you gather too much you die? Lol.
As with lots of aspects of this genre, we know there are 'issues' in many areas and I have faith that VR are knowledgeable, experienced and want Terminus to feel more like a world and less like a game where possible.
There are probably some aspects that can't be fixed (without too bad an effect on other aspects) but I hope VR have a go at minimising the stuff we know is problematic.
Gold DKP sounds OK, except encouraging gold farming/selling.
Players should be able to have agency, and there should be less immersion breaking things to deal with meta rather than more.
Deal with the problem, not a proxy.
In this case log all trade data and hire a data scientist to trawl it , then place a GM or two watching the worst offenders with the ban hammer then hit everyone whom ever pusrchased from them.
StoneFish said:Going to remain a minority concerning this issue. I'm going to continue to adhere to a philosophy of representative authority based upon nothing but my vote for who I choose as my leadership at any one time or any one activity. Someone gets the loot and then distributes the loot. Trust and betrayal are part of life and I accept that. Honor and reputation are tested and stressed many times, every day in most cases, and I want that to be observable in Pantheon as well. I want to trust in someone's judgement, I do not want to trust in an algorithm or calculation. Structure is need up to a point and that point is when the power a group or individual holds is so great that choice is no longer an option for change. I'm open to having my minded changed on this but I want dynamic leadership and complexity in the social realm, I want to judge the performance of a leader. The raid can pick the "treasurers" for loot allocation and if someone feels shorted then how that grievance is handled is part of my enjoyment. I don't want randoms on a raid to finish up, take their gold and leave. I want trading and chatter and relationships to be made and damaged.
I'm happy to remain a minority on this, I want to be part of a crazy magical world of personalities and parties, not jobs and chores based on the spreadsheet numbers dictated by an algorithm.
This human wants to play a game, not game a financial rewards structure.
I agree with you. I don't think this particular issue should be addressed through game design. People will always find loopholes. I think the community will self regulate up to a point. However, it is impossible in certain communities because of the cross-servers and lack of social repercussions. Hard to shun a guild or player when they're not even on your server. Or for there to be consquences against someone who has access to thousands of other players who will also only see them once in their lives.
If people want to sell raid spots? Go ahead. If they trample on the community in order to do so? Then let the community respond however they will (of course with respect and ToS in mind). If the people continue to negatively impact the player base because nothing can be done by them, then let the powers that be intervene however they see fit.
Kilsin said:I wouldn't worry, Eggz. If anything like this starts happening, we can put a stop to it very quickly, especially if we see it affect the balance of the game in economy or power or has a negative impact on the community.
Going to be very hard to police other guild forums, advertising catchup raids for people. Some charge gold, others take certain drops. It is when it gets advertised in open chat it becomes a problem. Old quote applies "What people don't know, will not harm them" Eventually once support starts to die off, the open advertisements happen. I love you're passion brother, always have. Just having open dialog on the matter. God i am getting to old.
Ranarius said:He didn't say he'd police guilds doing that, he said he could stop it if it affects the balance of the game economy or power or has negative impact on the community. Pretty different things.
Like to know how, to be honest.. without monitoring guilds in the process.
Either way doesnt matter, if its too expensive and they block me... ill train them with my monk... oh wait thats EQ, wrong game =P