I like endgames that are deep and meaningful. Areas that were unreachable before, even at max level becoming unlocked, which leads to another set of tasks to unlock the next level and so on. These unlocks provide access to lore, stories, abilities, loot, raids previously unknown about and make me want to keep exploring and keep progressing.
Not sure how popular of an opinion this is but the Planes of Power raid flag system was my favorite experience of any MMO. Though they probably should have made more things unlockable by single groups and not just raids.
I think Endgame is where it begins. Alot of dungeons are unlocked once you reach max level. Also, once a game is out for a certain amount of time, there is a minimum level requirement to get into most guilds. Also, you can't really contend in raids/PvP unless you're max level. And of course last but not least (and my favorite); certain weapons/armor cannot be unlocked until you are at max level.
P.S. Don't forget new DLCs with new expansion packs and areas to explore as well.
Kilsin said:What is one aspect of end game that keeps you logging in? If you don't make it to end game, what would entice you to get there?
Some people have different meanings for the term "end game" but to me its when vertical progression stops and horizontal progression is the only option. There can only be so much content within a game, and once you've maximized vertical progression, you've reached "end game" content. For me, the horizontal progression that keeps me returning to a game is meaningful crafting... in fact, I typically don't craft in a game unless it is meaningful. I know its a controversial mechanic, but having a player home that you could customize would be easy horizontal progression that would keep players logging in if there were a property tax for upkeep (which increased based on the property value to include its contents). It would also make more sense to have a home (or at least a room somewhere) if you "lived" in a world - and had tons of magic armor and weapons and money... but can't afford a home(?) :-/
Each city could have different style homes to select... an image of a Myr home with one wall basically being glass that looked out into the water like an aquarium just came to mind. Thronefast could have stone/castle-like quarters within a castle or even small keeps. Guilds could have a castles or cathedral (requiring tithes for upkeep) and provide quarters for their members that the players could customize. I suppose the location/city could be determined by reputation/faction... giving purpose toward another avenue for horizontal progression (aside from doing it to be a completionist).
Edit: I would be remiss if I didn't add that PvP games do not need to worry about "end game content" nearly as much as PvE games.
chenzeme said:The end game implies that there is nowhere left to go, and all there is left to do is the same content over and over. The last thing I want to do is to run the same content ad infinitum. Yes, some people will want to raid until they are super-hot, and I have done so in the past. But it doesn't grab me anymore; re-running the same content for me is no longer a pull.
I would have to agree with this... I want to find groups and have an adventure go dungeon crawling and see things that will be hard to see, but I do not want to spend hours on end raiding anymore. When I think of the time spent doing that, it makes me sick to my stomach. I want things to be difficult but not waiting around in one area talking about strats for hours on end and then getting killed many times over until we get the strat that works. I'm sure you guys get the picture I have been in some top guilds where we spent weeks at the same thing for 5 to 6 hours a shot... no, thank you...
I also do not like the thought about only the top guild getting a crack at raid content as well....
dungeon crawls that are so big they have towns in them to resupply like some anime's would be great. AA's would be terrific... I'm looking for a dungeon crawler more than a raid game.
Helping people get the gear they never thought they would have really made me happy, or just helping someone lvl or get their corpse back is how you can make lifelong friends.
Please do not get it twisted about not wanting to raid for hours on end over and over to think I do not want it to take a long time to reach max lvl. In my opinion, that is what an MMO is not an RPG that takes 2 months and your top lvl. The journey to max lvl with friends and guildmates is what it is all about.
I think MMOs should have some raids, but it is more about dungeons than anything else.
Just my 2 cents =)
Endgame for me hopefully means doing what you already were having fun doing but on a slightly harder curve. As someone who prob won’t get much into raiding due to schedule constraints I would love to still log in and feel like I have items to go for even after hitting the level cap. I want reasons to continue to group beyond just “hanging out”. I would also like to see VR get some above max level dungeons that aren’t quite raid level but definitely high-end group content. Like a dungeon that starts at like 48 and goes un into the low 50s (if 50 is max). Ideally a max level single group could clear through this but it leaves the door open for small more casual guilds to go in with more troops if needed. Basically a step above a normal exp grinding zone but bellow a raid tier zone.
Also, I do enjoy quests that take me back to group zones rather then obscure camps in the middle of nowhere. Having quest updates in the middle of nowhere that require a group is just begging guildies to sacrifice there time for your item. If your quest drop happens to drop around the area exping groups are you can just seamlessly join them with the desire for your drop but also helping others level even if you are already max level.
Kilsin said:What is one aspect of end game that keeps you logging in? If you don't make it to end game, what would entice you to get there?
End game is where I have the fewest reasons to play and is where I quit the most MMOs. The only aspect of end game that has any draw to it are the people you befriend who are also at or nearing end game. Without the social aspect there is no reason to play when you have everything. No dailies or weeklies will keep you logging in and its impossible to make endless content
You level up to max. Your level eliminates 80% of the world's content from being interesting beyond entirely safe exploration. Safe exploration is boring, it is less exciting than reading a wiki. Being forced to make alts is not ideal. Slow the leveling process, help players adapt to go through all content, not just levelinf
co.
You gear up to BIS level or near BIS level. Your gear eliminates an extra 15% of the worlds content. You have no reason to go to the dungeons any more. Please don't make gear easy to get?
You maxed your crafting once if not twice when you converted to an ideal crafting bonus for mechanical reasons.
Jobeson said:Kilsin said:What is one aspect of end game that keeps you logging in? If you don't make it to end game, what would entice you to get there?
co.
You gear up to BIS level or near BIS level. Your gear eliminates an extra 15% of the worlds content. You have no reason to go to the dungeons any more. Please don't make gear easy to get?
You maxed your crafting once if not twice when you converted to an ideal crafting bonus for mechanical reasons.
You are right. Maybe when they get mobbed by a hundred epic dragons they'll hit up those dungeons again, but if this is not recurring, you are absolutely correct.
What keeps me logging in for endgame is group content and the socializing that comes from the nature of grouping. Feeling some level of progress is also greatly important, whether it be through gear upgrades or a system like AA.
However, I strongly dislike that most modern mmo's gate their best group content behind max level, making it feel like those of us who play MMO's mostly for group content need to level ASAP in order to actually have fun, especially those of us mainly playing support classes. Also, modern MMO's seem to have a leveling speed that negates any incentive to hunt for the best pre-endgame gear. Assuming grouping is even an option during leveling (I'm looking at you, LOTRO), it feels like a way to get levels quickly as opposed to a way to experience everything you'll have access to at endgame.
There's no reason all of the things present in endgame, like raids, epic drops, etc to be only present at max level. Or at least only relevant at max level. If the "real" game is truly meant to not start at max level, then the same reason I gave for wanting to log into endgame should be the same reason I want to log into the game no matter what level my character is.
Side note: lol I really shouldn't post while tired... the last post being proof of that.
Feastycentral said:There's no reason all of the things present in endgame, like raids, epic drops, etc to be only present at max level. Or at least only relevant at max level. If the "real" game is truly meant to not start at max level, then the same reason I gave for wanting to log into endgame should be the same reason I want to log into the game no matter what level my character is.
The reason raids are at max level is because leveling past the difficulty is the norm. Players always take the easy route. Levels are pure power ups in virtually every game. Imagine if your normal MMOs let players level past max level. As in the cap was not there. Do you think any raid would run the mob at the intended contested level? The tank given the option of being 25% harder to hit plus a ton more hp and the DPS the option to ignore all accuracy requirements.
A low level raid ends up a raid a high levels will farm.
Jobeson said:]The reason raids are at max level is because leveling past the difficulty is the norm. Players always take the easy route. Levels are pure power ups in virtually every game. Imagine if your normal MMOs let players level past max level. As in the cap was not there. Do you think any raid would run the mob at the intended contested level? The tank given the option of being 25% harder to hit plus a ton more hp and the DPS the option to ignore all accuracy requirements.
A low level raid ends up a raid a high levels will farm.
This is a great point. Thanks for mentioning it.
There are ways around this issue. Have a level cap to enter in the form of some guards at the entrance that decide if you can pass. If the game has a mentoring system, use that to bring people to the appropriate level which will greatly increase replay value as well.
This might be a separate topic though, and I don't want to derail Kilsin's post.
Jobeson said:Side note: lol I really shouldn't post while tired... the last post being proof of that.
Feastycentral said:There's no reason all of the things present in endgame, like raids, epic drops, etc to be only present at max level. Or at least only relevant at max level. If the "real" game is truly meant to not start at max level, then the same reason I gave for wanting to log into endgame should be the same reason I want to log into the game no matter what level my character is.
The reason raids are at max level is because leveling past the difficulty is the norm. Players always take the easy route. Levels are pure power ups in virtually every game. Imagine if your normal MMOs let players level past max level. As in the cap was not there. Do you think any raid would run the mob at the intended contested level? The tank given the option of being 25% harder to hit plus a ton more hp and the DPS the option to ignore all accuracy requirements.
A low level raid ends up a raid a high levels will farm.
I'm not a typical end game mmo player. I often don't spend a whole lot of time doing end game content, especially not on repeat. Once I experience the content I tend to move on because gear isn't a huge motivator for me. Chances are I will be rolling a new guy if there's a 'fresh angle' with a different race/class combo or something. The only thing that keeps me playing my max level is typically guild stuff and pvp, so for this game that means robust guild mechanics and ways to contribute to that guild beyond just raiding every so often would have me logging on for 'end game' content much more often. I like to chase titles, unusual faction rep, cosmetics, epic or weird quest lines, weird items, story type stuff.
More interactions between lower and higher levels is always a big draw.. especially if certain visuals ae restricted to hard quests / raids.
As for keeping playing, a constant stream of new content which doesnt invalidate old content with mudflation too fast.
e.g. The epic rare drop you attained via the hardest encounter in the game shouldn't be surpased by a random drop from the first mob killed in a new expansion.
In general each two years should lower how good an item is by one tier.
- Best in game
- Excellent for raids
- Excellent for group play / Good for raids
- Good for group play / Ok for raids
- Common / Ok for group play
In my ideal MMO, there would be no 'end game' and max level would feel no different than level 1. And while infinite exploration and adventure is impossible, I think any MMO should strive to get as close to that goal as possible. Just getting to max level and doing the same raid or dungeon over and over again because nothing else is viable either gear-wise or as part of the story is just not interesting to me any more.
I rarely get to what most people would call "end game" before new content comes out. Even if I play a lot of hours usually spend my time doing things that don't necessarily progress my character toward max adventure level. I spend a lot of time goofing around, going to places I shouldn't be going, working in the markeplaces, eating/drinking in town, helping other players out, stuff like that. It's not that I don't enjoy end game type content, I just don't often get there before everyone else has moved on haha.
There really is no one aspect. If there was just one aspect I would likely grow bored of it eventually and quit. So If I had to name one aspect, it's variety.
Give me some fun raids and a good guild. Raids shouldn't be easy to win and we should be challenging it quite a bit. Make sure gear doesn't drop in such large numbers such that we aren't killing the older bosses in the raid encounter for loot that everyone has.
Give me a reason to farm a certain mob solo or farm some ingrediants for potions for a raid.
Give me some fun dungeons that I can either help others in or just hope to get a random gear or a fun mount.
Give me a large numbers of good enjoyable classes such that I might enjoy making an alt. If the combat is fun enough and the classes unique enough along with the leveling content fun I'll enjoy playing through multiple alts.
I'm not a fan of PvP but if you give me good PvP especially if it mixes in PvE, it's something to mess around with from time to time. I loved Alterac Valley(AV) before they changed it to make most of the PvE stuff pointless and it became a race to kill the enemy general battleground. It's an MMO so I expect to be facing large number of players at once not a duel or a 5v5.
Some reputation to grind here, Some crafting there.
Nedrith said:There really is no one aspect. If there was just one aspect I would likely grow bored of it eventually and quit. So If I had to name one aspect, it's variety.
Give me some fun raids and a good guild. Raids shouldn't be easy to win and we should be challenging it quite a bit. Make sure gear doesn't drop in such large numbers such that we aren't killing the older bosses in the raid encounter for loot that everyone has.
Give me a reason to farm a certain mob solo or farm some ingrediants for potions for a raid.
Give me some fun dungeons that I can either help others in or just hope to get a random gear or a fun mount.
Give me a large numbers of good enjoyable classes such that I might enjoy making an alt. If the combat is fun enough and the classes unique enough along with the leveling content fun I'll enjoy playing through multiple alts.
I'm not a fan of PvP but if you give me good PvP especially if it mixes in PvE, it's something to mess around with from time to time. I loved Alterac Valley(AV) before they changed it to make most of the PvE stuff pointless and it became a race to kill the enemy general battleground. It's an MMO so I expect to be facing large number of players at once not a duel or a 5v5.
Some reputation to grind here, Some crafting there.
I think I like PVP more than Nedrith. You make a really good point... I'm not talking about 1v1 or 2v2 or 3v3 but like battlegrounds that if I have a Pug group and I'm going up against a group of friends that are always together that the Pug still has a fighting chance to Win. The chance to win if the Pug group is playing their class and has a good strategy still needs a way to win against these stacked battlegrounds.
Now that is easier said than done but If VR could make battlegrounds to get away from leveling and grinding to just go have fun like that you have a game that will be super successful.
I think Pantheon shouldn't need this with how I envision dungeons... I personally want dungeons to be so big that they need little cities in them to restock. A lot of people seem to really like battlegrounds tho...
Just know this is all coming from I am not playing an MMO and am trying to patiently wait for Pantheon... I get these romantic visions of dungeon crawling with a group of friends that lead me to start day dreaming of days of old
Nedrith said:I'm not a fan of PvP but if you give me good PvP especially if it mixes in PvE, it's something to mess around with from time to time. I loved Alterac Valley(AV) before they changed it to make most of the PvE stuff pointless and it became a race to kill the enemy general battleground.
This was the secret that made WoW the collusus of MMOs for so very long... There are still people to this day that don't realize it was designed as a PvP game with PvE content (Horde vs Alliance). They did the pvp so well, that players didn't even realize they were playing a pvp game. Then it got toxic... but the pvp still made "end game" non-existent because there was always something to do that was ever-dynamic (competing against other players). A lot of the automation that PRotF is straying away from that was included in WoW later is what turned off a lot of the people in these forums... not the pvp as much as some think they don't like it. What I don't like is free-for-all pvp, where you can't even trust people in your own party.
If they could implement some kind of content similar to Alterac Valley, that would be amazing, and I would likely spend a majority of my "end game" time there (it would also influence my race/class choice).
AbsoluteTerror said:reaching max level and unlocking all my ability plus
side quest
exploration
and gring is my end game.
getting BIS gear is meh but it would be nice to have
?! Where is this Great Gring?! I've never heard of it! Sounds malevolent and deadly! (What loot does it drop?...)
Lucian1388 said:Will there be a death penalty at max level? That would make end game content signifcantly more risky to engage in.
I dont see why the death penalty wouldn't still apply at max level which would mean 10 deaths = deleveling.
It would be interesting if the death penalty at max level were somehow *more* severe, though, if that's what you mean, since of course, max level players don't need *more* XP (beyond max level), so having to re-gain lost XP isn't the sting it is before max level.
Hmm... Maybe you should lose Mastery progress in the death penalty at max level? Maybe you should lose twice as much XP? Interesting...