Whilst I don't particularly like the term 'end game', I know what you mean, so the answer is the same for both.
At 'end game' I like to help other players. To reach end game, there's nothing so encouraging and positively social as being helped by willing, friendly higher level players.
I'm not talking about twinking or powerleveling - I'd love to see some kind of mentoring feature - but the best thing in an MMORPG is cooperating with others to overcome adversities. Struggling to progress is one adversity that more experienced and higher (but within appropriate range) level players can enjoy helping with and make a positive impact on the community while doing so.
One of the reasons I like starting again with alts is I can mix with 'real' noobs and give them the benefit of experience, if they want it. No spoilers and short-cuts, just encouragment and cooperation.
There are hopefully lots of others things, of course, to do for yourself if you're a collector, completionist, crafter, etc. but you asked for "one thing" so I'll say: helping. Feels good.
Progress is the ONLY reason to keep coming back, so...
I believe we have already been told:
Max Level ≠ End Game
So what is endgame? Is it full horizontal progression to be able to reach any place in the world? Is it jull Masteries? If so, there's only a few options. The only way to continue to "progress" is to have harder and harder mobs and more of them, increasing the level cap (moving the goalpost), or enough enticement to warrant progeny.
Out of these three, progeny is by far the greatest option to me. More content is an easy answer but more content needs to be buffeted by removing content as well. Continue meaningful story arc which sunsets content and creates new content. New challenges will keep players coming back.
I will generally make a lot of alts but for my max level character for me it is more about having horizontal progession to work towards, whether that be faction gated mounts/titles or rare drops to work on. I do enjoy achievement systems but I understand this is something the wider community isn't keen on/wouldn't be planned for release.
Weirdly, it's in the end game where I actually want a fair bit of solo content. Lots of crafting, gathering, interesting quests, factions to join, minigames, exploration, the list goes on. I will surely do a fair bit of that while leveling up, but I will do more of it when I hit my late game "retirement" stage.
Additionaly, I also love when there's a "casual grind" to give me a reason to keep grouping. AAs were perfect for this in EverQuest when they came out. I never felt rushed for them. They were an amazing excuse to join a leisurely group. I do not care for loot treadmill dungeons where I'm going to get a piece of gear so that I can get a slightly better piece of gear so that I can get a slightly better piece of gear so that... you get the idea. That's when a game dies for me. Daily quests are also terrible. If I like the game I'm going to log on frequently. I don't need dumb chores to get on the game every day. It also means that if you miss a day, you're now "behind" with no way to "catch up". It's the absolute worst. Psychologically manipulative.
Raids of course go without saying. I'm undecided if I will be going "hardcore" on raids or not but they're great distractions as long as they don't become tedious treadmills.
My personal end game is max level, but I'm in no hurry to get there. I generally mosey my way to max level, exploration, crafting, adventuring all hold equal standing for me. By the tie I get to max level, the power leveling guilds/folks have all turned "end game" raids into well oiled routines that I don't particularly enjoy, so continuing to round out my character, horizontally I suppose is the draw for me at that point. The one thing that might entice me to speed up my efforts to get there would probably have to be some type of epic quest(s)/reward(s).
Continuing lore threads (and quests).
Secrets (especially those that were not available to begin with).
High-level fractures that were at one time impossible to survive.
Having maxed out techniques, searching out forbidden arts only whispered about in perception pings.
Discovering changes in the terrain of a familiar area, i.e. cracks in the earth leading to who knows what, portals, a new climbable surface, and so on.
Murder mysteries that involve the disappearance of well-known NPCs.
Trafficking rumors to other players.
Loot... oh so shiny loot.
Some sort of alternate advancement is a must. AA points were a good draw for eq and collecting pets/mounts/cosmetics keeps me coming back to wow.
Raids definitely were the original way to keep me interested but once you get your gear good enough to feel powerful my interest tapers off of the raiding scene. I didn't need to have the top gear, just the stuff that makes you feel like you could take on more than you should. After that I would always be happy to help my guildees getting their gear with the occasional surprise upgrade, but it became more about helping them than me having fun. Without the other things above to keep the fun/progression going I would definitely get burned out no matter how much I wanted to help.
In eq what made me want to get to end game faster was the epic weapon quest, I'd start the easiest parts as early as I could because it was always super exciting no matter how many times you do it. In wow what made me hurry to end game was the fact that there was nothing meaningful before then. I am happy that pantheon is making leveling meaningful. In wow I have played all the classes/leveled so many times that its just a pointless chore to level up. Gear doesn't matter, I am not learning my skills, and everything is different at top level. talents/covenants/the newest borrowed power change the game so drastically it makes everything leading up to it irrelevant.
Kilsin said:What is one aspect of end game that keeps you logging in? If you don't make it to end game, what would entice you to get there?
IMO:
Tangible personal daily progress in character power is what keeps me logging in every day.
Once I can't progress, I'm out.
Add as many game loops as you want to keep me invested, but that's the reality for me and those in the guilds I've played with over the past 25+ years in MMOs, from M59/UO until today.
I am less likely (these days) to chase a 5% increase in gear score (raiding with 20+ people to get one item), given vastly superior options available via many many different methods.
What's the status of Progeny? What's the status of or public design goals, for Pantheon, in the context of 'end game' content like multi-group content in many game loops?
We already know that you can only have one tradeskill (to max) so that's not an option for 'end game', unless that public design goal has changed, too?
I mean, in many other previous MMOs, being able to master all the tradeskills was a perfectly viable max-level goal that players could reach, if they were willing to invest the time, resources, and effort. Same goes with faction, and other non-combat 'end game' goals.
As that's apparently not an option for Pantheon, I guess I won't be doing that, when I would have and do, in other games that have it. :)
End game implies that there is nowhere left to go and all there is left to do is the same content over and over. The last thing I want to do is to run the same content ad infinitum. Yes, some people will want to raid until they are super-hot and I have done so in the past. But it doesnt grab me anymore, re-running the same content for me is no longer a pull.
I never did get my head around progeny and its implementation, but I would definitely want to create multiple characters/roles/crafts with a view to seeing all places of the world. When I hit max and complete everything I want to, I will start again (however it is implemented) in a different place.
By the time I have a few maxed characters, I would hope that there was an expansion waiting for me.
I dont want a single character to be able to do everything, but I do want the ability to enjoy multiple roles on different characters.
Since me and my guild plan on hitting the pvp server, a big part of our end-game activities will involve fighting other guilds/groups of players, much like we did on Vanguard's Tharridon/Sartok servers. However, in VG there was no clear incentive to pvp at all, other than bragging rights (infamy points were useless). As fun as VG was in those servers it was hard to keep people engaged for long when there were no pvp objectives whatsoever.
In order to address this in Pantheon I would like VR to have some systems implemented on the pvp server to incentivise players and player groups to fight each other. Here's some ideas:
> Bounty hunting system. It would be cool to have a bounty board of some sort in every inn/tavern (kinda similar to The Witcher3) so that we could check the active bounties on players (submitted by other players in the server community). There could also be a ranking of the most amount of bounty for the top "outlaws". This is beneficial in two ways: it gives the anti-pk types something to look forward to in order to "do good" and punish the "bad guys". On the other hand it can give the "outlaws" a sort of pride in being in the "most-wanted" list. The feeling of knowing that you are might be being hunted by many players or even guilds in the server is a rush that I personally quite enjoy (think riddick).
> Guild wars system. I would like the pvp server to provide the possibility of guild alliances and guild wars and all the diplomatic ramifications this entails. From here on you can figure out a ton of different objectives to keep players and guilds engaged.
> Soft faction system. I say "soft" because, personally, I don't like the idea of being unable to fight or group with someone else in the server, just because we don't belong to same npc-faction or player-alliance. I see npc-factions as a very personal choice of each player (because of race, class, crafting etc...) therefore this shouldn't restrict the pvp sphere. Essentially I'm saying is that the "pvp-factions" should be exclusively player-run alliances, dynamic, organic and ever changing, depending on the server' diplomatic landscape. And you should be able to group with players from other alliances, even if you are at war with each other. The npc faction system should be a separate thing, suited to individual needs.
Kilsin said:What is one aspect of end game that keeps you logging in? If you don't make it to end game, what would entice you to get there?
Once at the level cap, there is sitll the potential for player growth and that is what keeps me playing. Max out my skills; max out tradeskills; finish collecting all the gear I want; finish whatever quests might still exist; etc. Once my character stagnates, I'll go find another game to play.
For me, the game is most enjoyable at the 'end game'. I like facing content with the full character toolbox and wearing all the best gear. That is fun, that is interesting.
For me it's items to do that still make my main character better. This includes helping friends if they still need some key upgrades even if I personally have already achieved them. I don't typically do a ton of crafting. I'm here to explore and kill things. Raiding is huge. End game dungeon content/instances. Collectibles and transmog type items are pretty good as well. Especially if they involve hunting certain mobs/quantity of mobs lol.
vjek said: We already know that you can only have one tradeskill (to max) so that's not an option for 'end game', unless that public design goal has changed, too?
I don't know where you've been, but we were told some time ago that a single character can train TWO tradeskills.
I mean, in many other previous MMOs, being able to master all the tradeskills was a perfectly viable max-level goal that players could reach, if they were willing to invest the time, resources, and effort. Same goes with faction, and other non-combat 'end game' goals. As that's apparently not an option for Pantheon, I guess I won't be doing that, when I would have and do, in other games that have it. :)
I'm sorry but when pessimism twists the truth into a lie, I have to point it out. Mastering every tradeskill is a perfectly viable, max-level goal for any player. I personally plan to master most of them. The same is true for faction and all other game goals. They just can't do it all on one character. This is you choosing not "to invest the time, resources, and effort", not some failing of Pantheon.
End Game? I haven't even experienced "Start Game" yet?
I seldom make it to or experience much "end game", I find most games get extremely repetative the higher you get, so typically I get characters into their 40's (on a max lvl 50-60 game), and grow tired and begin to create alts.
I'm not a big fan of endgame. I spend some time there and then start on my alts...if I even make it to max level. I enjoyed WoW PVP endgame, but since this is a PVE game that I will be focused on, I will have to find some reason to enjoy endgame. Like others have said, I don't like the term, but I understand the the purpose of the question.
I think Pantheon will surprise a lot of folks who try to play this MMO like they have played the previous ones. I don't think folks will get the full enjoyment of Pantheon rushing to max level.
I feel that whatever level your character is on is still your character. All the trials and learning experiences make up who your character is and it's a lot more than a max level raider. There will be experiences that many us have never experienced in an MMO and I want to savor it all.
Not much to entice me to endgame becasue I will get there eventually. It's the journey and new adventures I'm truly after, be it low levels or max levels.
I love mmorpgs because of the social factors. I enjoy getting to know other players while exploring the world and adventuring. I really enjoy learning new things. I enjoy having alts. I'll enjoy Crafting, perception, climbing, battle, learning every zone, etc. If Pantheon is anything like it seems it will be, I'll be playing for years. I really don't think about endgame too much. I'll get there when I get there. I'm more of ...enjoy the journey... type.
Byproducts said:Weirdly, it's in the end game where I actually want a fair bit of solo content. Lots of crafting, gathering, interesting quests, factions to join, minigames, exploration, the list goes on. I will surely do a fair bit of that while leveling up, but I will do more of it when I hit my late game "retirement" stage.
Additionaly, I also love when there's a "casual grind" to give me a reason to keep grouping. AAs were perfect for this in EverQuest when they came out. I never felt rushed for them. They were an amazing excuse to join a leisurely group. I do not care for loot treadmill dungeons where I'm going to get a piece of gear so that I can get a slightly better piece of gear so that I can get a slightly better piece of gear so that... you get the idea. That's when a game dies for me. Daily quests are also terrible. If I like the game I'm going to log on frequently. I don't need dumb chores to get on the game every day. It also means that if you miss a day, you're now "behind" with no way to "catch up". It's the absolute worst. Psychologically manipulative.
Raids of course go without saying. I'm undecided if I will be going "hardcore" on raids or not but they're great distractions as long as they don't become tedious treadmills.
I agree with all of this. Hate daily chores. Love progressing towards things like AA.
In Final Fantasy 11 my "end game" was reaching cap lv75, before Abyssea expansion had ruined the game. I couldn't do end game content because I enjoyed doing side quests and camp rare monster that dropped weapons/armor/accessories.
Likewise I'll be doing the same thing in Pantheon grinding exp, mastery, acclimation, group party, hunting monster for rare drop, etc
PS. Waiting for PRoTF
I'm soooo tired of these p2w and gacha loot boxes phone games...
Edit: Please keep Pantheon a horizontal progression game. I like to enjoy the game and mozey my way. Some days I just login and do nothing achieve nothing It feel great to get nothing done!
Kilsin said:What is one aspect of end game that keeps you logging in? If you don't make it to end game, what would entice you to get there?
Hmm probably rping. I am not much of an rper but the more tools we get to rp with the better. I love raiding, and crafting, and faction ranking, and collecting and stuff....but in the end rping is more of a community thing and that can change the whole feeling of the game and it's the easiet tool to allow the game feel more alive. I remember in EQ I was in the swamps were the entrance to upper guk is on my wood elf druid and this level like 4 troll with nothing but a club comes up to me and starts typing in /shout like oh noo stoopid wud elf guards guards wuud elf here we eat...and the way they were moving their character back n forth and the head turning and everything was just making me laugh...I also farmed the magus for 6 hous afterwards to get the robe in lower guk and that stupid troll scene was still the highlight lol.
AbsoluteTerror said:Please keep Pantheon a horizontal progression game. I like to enjoy the game and mozey my way. Some days I just login and do nothing achieve nothing It feel great to get nothing done!
I agree. By the time I had a couple high level characters in AC, I often logged in with no plans for adventuring or crafting. Just to be IN the world of Dereth and listen to other players chatting in town or hear my guildies talk about what they were doing was fun enough on many occasions.