A question for the devs...
Pantheon is undenyably more of a sandbox MMORPG than a storyline-based MMO it feels easy to overlook diversity & inclusivity, but in the 2020s it has become a much more visible topic than it was back when MMOs first began. What steps are JN and the rest of Visionary Realms taking to include include strong, well-written women, BIPOC, and/or LGBTQ NPCs? Additionally, is there a plan in place to handle implementation of these groups differently for each of the nine races?
A more threshold question is what steps the developers *should* be taking. I note, of course, that there is no "lore" that the game needs to be consistent with, as in LOTRO, so VR has a free hand.
My view is that VR should not be rubbing our noses in political correctness. A dwarf city should not have to have dwarves that look asian or hispanic or black or native American it should have ....dwarves. If it is near lands controlled by another race maybe some of them if relations aren't too bad. Maybe a handful of immigrants from more distant lands if there is enough travel to support that kind of background.
Similarly there could be and probably should be lands that work very differently indeed than your suggestions might call for. Lands where men dominate as they so often have in the history of the "real world". Lands where women do as they sometimes have here. Lands where homosexuality is common, perhaps dominant. Lands where it ... is not.
I view with horror the thought of a high fantasy world where the developers are told to make every land the same as every other land. 50% male 50% female NPCs in every land. Or should I say 33% male, 33% female and 33% other or undecided? With similar straightjackets for sexual preferences.
Before I get too far onto your KOS list my point is that the many lands in Terminus should be very diverse. One might say - diverse in their diversity. Probably none though will or should be as cosmopolitan as many of us are used to since there simply isn't the level of communication and transportation that telepohones and airplanes have generated.
I am not at all in disagreement that looking at the wolrd as a whole - not any particular race or territory - there should be diversity as long as our noses aren't rubbed in it. Powerful women. Weak women. Powerful men. Weak men. Differing orientations.
dorotea said:My view is that VR should not be rubbing our noses in political correctness...
there should be diversity as long as our noses aren't rubbed in it.
I'm sorry Dorotea, but it seems to me that you are using 'diversity' and 'political correctness' interchangeably in your comment. They do not mean the same thing. I am NOT claiming you are doing this intentionally, but 'political correctness' is a much more controversial term and is often used with a perjorative meaning. I feel that it is important to be clear in our terms, especially in THIS discussion. The OP only asked about diversity.
A more threshold question is what steps the developers *should* be taking.
Sorry, I'm afraid I disagree with you here as well. To ask VR directly about their efforts concerning a controversial subject is IMO reasonable. To shift the question to what everyone thinks 'should be done' about this controversial subject greatly increases the chance of getting the thread locked and missing the opportunity to hear a measured response from VR on the subject. (I also think that technically it hijacks the OP's thread, since they overtly directed it to the Devs.)
Of course they might not be ready to make a statement on this subject, and lock the thread anyway. But you can't get an answer if you don't ask a question.
Donler said:A question for the devs...
Pantheon is undenyably more of a sandbox MMORPG than a storyline-based MMO it feels easy to overlook diversity & inclusivity, but in the 2020s it has become a much more visible topic than it was back when MMOs first began. What steps are JN and the rest of Visionary Realms taking to include include strong, well-written women, BIPOC, and/or LGBTQ NPCs? Additionally, is there a plan in place to handle implementation of these groups differently for each of the nine races?
We're big supporters of equality, and while we won't force things like this in the game just for the sake of it, if we see an opportunity to include it, we will, but only if it makes sense in our high fantasy world of Terminus.
jothany - you are mostly right although the term "diversity" is used in many different ways both by those that want more of it and those that do *not* want more of it. I probably should not have used the phrase "political correctness".
Hopefully this thread will not veer into discussion of "real world" attitudes and preferances since the OP raises a very valid question and one that hopefully will not be too controversial. Though I have seen quite a bit of controversy on MMO forums as to things like whether the MMO should allow in-game "same sex" marraige.
My core point, of course, is that lands and cultures with what many of us would consider ...undesirable .... governments, attitudes and the like are a key part of many top grade fantasy and science fiction universes. Sometimes as "the enemy" to be opposed by the "good guys". Sometimes as the good but not perfect side to be reformed by the "good guys". Sometimes simply as the good, or at least better, side, whose flaws are to be accepted. And one person's dystopia will be another person's utopia.
While the game as a whole may represent different genders, orientations and the like fairly and equally no particular race or culture on the world of Terminus needs to or even should. Basically what Kilsin said.
Kilsin said:We're big supporters of equality, and while we won't force things like this in the game just for the sake of it, if we see an opportunity to include it, we will, but only if it makes sense in our high fantasy world of Terminus.
This is disappointing to hear. Why would sexuality or race or gender need to be forced? People exist in all ways across all of time, even when under the threat of death and damnation. If your fantasy excludes any of them because "it doesn't make sense" then it's the fantasy itself that doesn't make sense.
The only times representations of real people are "forced" are when certain people claim that they are. The representations might be poorly executed, but it's still important to make an effort toward inclusivity even if you're bad about it, so long as your attempt isn't malicious.
Byproducts said:Kilsin said:We're big supporters of equality, and while we won't force things like this in the game just for the sake of it, if we see an opportunity to include it, we will, but only if it makes sense in our high fantasy world of Terminus.
This is disappointing to hear. Why would sexuality or race or gender need to be forced? People exist in all ways across all of time, even when under the threat of death and damnation. If your fantasy excludes any of them because "it doesn't make sense" then it's the fantasy itself that doesn't make sense.
The only times representations of real people are "forced" are when certain people claim that they are. The representations might be poorly executed, but it's still important to make an effort toward inclusivity even if you're bad about it, so long as your attempt isn't malicious.
I'm not sure you did read what you quoted.
Byproducts said:Kilsin said:We're big supporters of equality, and while we won't force things like this in the game just for the sake of it, if we see an opportunity to include it, we will, but only if it makes sense in our high fantasy world of Terminus.
This is disappointing to hear. Why would sexuality or race or gender need to be forced? People exist in all ways across all of time, even when under the threat of death and damnation. If your fantasy excludes any of them because "it doesn't make sense" then it's the fantasy itself that doesn't make sense.
The only times representations of real people are "forced" are when certain people claim that they are. The representations might be poorly executed, but it's still important to make an effort toward inclusivity even if you're bad about it, so long as your attempt isn't malicious.
I think you misunderstand my post, mate. We want to do something like that justice and NOT force it in just for the sake of it to be "woke".
Kilsin said:I think you misunderstand my post, mate. We want to do something like that justice and NOT force it in just for the sake of it to be "woke".
I really wanted to ignore this thread and have a good day, but I cannot believe you just used that word. Seriously the word "woke" in this context is absolutely meaningless except that it is often used by people who are on a spectrum between annoyed and enraged to be reminded that the world, and history, have always been more diverse than media has consistently portrayed it to be in the past. It is also a rather charged word that tends to be confined to political arguments. (As dorotea points out, so is the word "diversity", unfortunately, when it should be neutral.) And I mostly try to avoid politcal conversations because headaches and anxiety.
So you see, when I see the word "woke", I translate it something like
We want to do something like that justice and NOT force it in just for the sake of being less rigidly confined to early twentieth century notions of the variety of people who actually lived in medieval and ancient times
Would showing a more realistically diverse fantasy society not "do something like that justice"? It's not about appeasing a demographic, or tossing in fashionable things. It's about how so many early D&D and fantasy games and novels resembled no society that has ever existed on earth.
I definitely believe that VR would want this world to feel lived in and immersive, and to reflect the post-apocalyptic world the lore describes after collisions and wars, and intermingling of so many peoples and cultures. I also understand that correcting the tendencies of past fiction can feel forced (and often does).
9 different races seem fairly diverse to me, maybe they can dust off the Erudites from EQ, or a suitably named substitute in the future. I think of the classes an equal number are represented by female characters, including the warrior, seems females are represented fairly to me. Lore mentions strong females such as Amenthiel "the lady king" as well as others mentioned. I'm reasonably certain there will be a slider to determine skin color, so that you can be dark or light skinned as you may wish. I can't really recall npc's sexuality much from past mmo's. New World did have a nonbinary npc on the beach somewhere, but truthfully I never really get the feeling that npc's are raging heterosexuals. If this is about the current climate of using certain pronouns, I'm old, and old school myself, and have difficulty using plural pronouns for a single individual, but I'm not going to get bent out of shape if it's in game.
The problem for me with these issues is where does it stop. Do we lump all tribes into "native americans?" Are Polynesians ok, or do we need Maori, Hawaiian, etc. Is that sufficient? Is an asian npc enough, or should we have Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, etc. characters. Aside from the female characters often being scantily clad, and really I think those issues are quickly going away, females all seem to have the same abilities as males in this game. Do we have studies to determine what percentage of the population considers themselves gay, and then insist that the same percentage of npc's in game be so?
It just seems to me that VR has been doing well so far at creating a game so far that is already reasonably inclusive. Probably they can include a male npc pining about his lost husband, or a female npc searching for her wife. These seem easily incorporated, whether they are already planned or not, as Kilsin says, I'll let VR have the latitude to create the game they want. I think I opined back in 2014 that I'd love to be able to finally play a left handed character, and was told that isn't happening, due to costs associated with making it happen. Every group that has ever felt slighted, represented in all 9 races? Welcome to Pantheon RotF, launching 2073.
If we get to beta and there are nothing but white male npc's wearing MAGA hats, well maybe it's time to speak up. Hope this doesn't come off as flippant. I'd just rather stick to discussing whether all dwarves will be blue rather than bring in real life issues, certainly when they don't seem to be issues, in game, at all at this point.
Crowsinger said:Kilsin said:I think you misunderstand my post, mate. We want to do something like that justice and NOT force it in just for the sake of it to be "woke".
I really wanted to ignore this thread and have a good day, but I cannot believe you just used that word. Seriously the word "woke" in this context is absolutely meaningless except that it is often used by people who are on a spectrum between annoyed and enraged to be reminded that the world, and history, have always been more diverse than media has consistently portrayed it to be in the past. It is also a rather charged word that tends to be confined to political arguments. (As dorotea points out, so is the word "diversity", unfortunately, when it should be neutral.) And I mostly try to avoid politcal conversations because headaches and anxiety.
So you see, when I see the word "woke", I translate it something like
We want to do something like that justice and NOT force it in just for the sake of being less rigidly confined to early twentieth century notions of the variety of people who actually lived in medieval and ancient times
Would showing a more realistically diverse fantasy society not "do something like that justice"? It's not about appeasing a demographic, or tossing in fashionable things. It's about how so many early D&D and fantasy games and novels resembled no society that has ever existed on earth.
I definitely believe that VR would want this world to feel lived in and immersive, and to reflect the post-apocalyptic world the lore describes after collisions and wars, and intermingling of so many peoples and cultures. I also understand that correcting the tendencies of past fiction can feel forced (and often does).
I'm sorry you took it that way, Crowsinger. It was not meant that way at all. I just wanted to clarify that we fully support equality within VR, our community, and in our game, and we won't just force something in to pretend that we do.
We would add content like that where appropriate because we mean it and feel it should be a natural part of our game.
Hopefully, that expresses my thoughts better than my previous post.
(I really should not post when I wake up and before my coffee has kicked in!)
To anyone curious about my motivations behind this post… After recently watching Arcane it felt clear to me that the show was able to well-portray a variety of races, economic status, gender, sexuality, and even mental well-ness. As the show’s producer was Riot Games (a future competitor of Pantheon) I wanted to gauge VRs thoughts and plans for how similar characteristics might factor into Pantheon, particularly given the fact that VR is still in the process of expressing each of the races’ ideals and social norms through lore, perception, and NPC dialog.
My own reaction to the ppost about diversity was colored by seeing how Wheel of Time handled it in the TV show.
They took an extremely isolated area - far removed from any of the major or even minor towns and cities for generations - and with almost all of the people descended from the ancient kingdom of Manetheren.
They threw in a wide variety of ethnic and racial looks purely in the interest of diversity and with no concern over whether this was even remotely realisitic in terms of the nature of the area and the history.
This did not lend itself to a "willing suspension of disbelief".
I would far prefer Pantheon not trying to homogonize everything in the name of "diversity" the way the Wheel of Time show attempted to.
dorotea said:They threw in a wide variety of ethnic and racial looks purely in the interest of diversity and with no concern over whether this was even remotely realisitic in terms of the nature of the area and the history. This did not lend itself to a "willing suspension of disbelief".
Fortunately, It sounds like avoiding those kind of situations is exactly what Kilsin addressed in his reply. Unfortunately, I don't feel like his reply really provided much insight into what VR is attempting to do, but rather focused on what they are not doing. A tempered, safe reply.
Hopefully in the future, we will hear more about the nuances of how each of the 9 races' cultures and social norms differ. It's these kinds of differences that add realism to civilizations (and factions), and goes a long way in writing and world-building. Hopefully, despite having a 1-man writing team, they are conscious of these discussions already, and don't fall into the "Planet of Hats trope" as often happens with large fantasy worlds (well-described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isdaYjET9cg).
The diverse civilization that we currently experience took thousands of years to come about. Expecting such diversity from a small team, with a limited amount of time, creating a game, will lead to disapppoinment. You can expect to see things, I'm guessing, as different races in areas they would not be anticipated to be found. You might find an underground group supporting evil characters in an otherwise "good" area. The problem with stereotypes, or 1 hats as your video calls it, is there is often a grain of truth to them, certainly in gaming. Certain societies have characteristics that are predominant, or at least prominent. No wise person isn't saying there are no, perhaps many, exceptions.
Trying to keep this within the gaming realm, and this game in particular, I personally expect to see characteristics of certain races. I don't want to see thin dwarves, drinking tea,working on their tans on the beach. Elves are generally nature lovers, I expect this. This is why I gravitate toward certain races, they reflect aspects of my personality, or go against my personality completely allowing me to indulge myself in a gaming world. VR has already put their spin on gnomes, dwarves, added totally new races, that will become known for their future characteristics, and traits. Can they add the occasional Dwaven alcholic that has given up drinking, sure, might add an interesting lore driven quest or tale, but on bulk I still anticipate hard drinking, hard working, stout built dwaves, that take pride in their culture, and sporting awesome beards as they do so. If you want diversity in game I offer you the humans. This race is desgined to be capable of becoming anything, a sinister necromancer raising the dead with nary a thought about the correctness of doing so, or they can be a cleric, destined to sacrifice themselves, that they may save whatever soul finds themselves in need, as well as everything in between. There will always be people who want to go against type, play the good ogre, the evil elf, the mechanically inept gnome, the dour halfling. This is where you really find your diversity in games, from the pc's, far more than the npc's. Sure VR will set the stage to the best of their ability, but as I mentioned earlier, there is already a great deal in game, with more undoubtedly coming, but as much as real life? I wouldn't expect that.
Lastly I would suggest you consider the role playing server when it is launched. I believe there are many just waiting to unleash the actors within.
edit: typos and spelling. I really should use the preview feature...
dorotea said:My own reaction to the ppost about diversity was colored by seeing how Wheel of Time handled it in the TV show.
They took an extremely isolated area - far removed from any of the major or even minor towns and cities for generations - and with almost all of the people descended from the ancient kingdom of Manetheren.
They threw in a wide variety of ethnic and racial looks purely in the interest of diversity and with no concern over whether this was even remotely realisitic in terms of the nature of the area and the history.
This did not lend itself to a "willing suspension of disbelief".
I would far prefer Pantheon not trying to homogonize everything in the name of "diversity" the way the Wheel of Time show attempted to.
That's the advantage VR has in working with custom lore. It seems out of place in Wheel of Time because we already have source material that contradicts what the product eventually became. VR has the luxury of saying the lore is whatever they want it to be. Of course players will have our preconceptions of what such and such race ought to be, but maybe Halflings are genderfluid party people that engage in communal and group... activities... or Gnomes, by virtue of being manifestations of energy, are entirely asexual and genderless. If that's what VR says they are, then that's what they are.
Unfortunately, no matter what VR does, there will be some segment of the community that will find some reason to be offended about something that doesn't impact them at all.
There is no reason Terminus should not show diversity in any regard, beit gender, race, disability, religeon, culture, politics, habitat, environment or whatever.
However, it wouldn't be good for Terminus to show diversity in any *particular* aspect, or represent any *particular* sub-group.
And there is certainly no reason Terminus should *have* to try and show diversity in *all* regards and, unless you do that, you are excluding some.
Writers write best about that which they know. Even creating a fantasy world is understandably drawn from a writer's experiences and it is neither a fault nor a problem for a writer not to have experienced every sex, gender, race, religeon, culture, habitat, political view, or whatever else makes up for a diverse world, fantasy or otherwise.
Of course, for fantasy, writers have good reason to be adventurous and explore novel ideas, but is feeling the need to incorporate real world ideas or ideals of diversity either a good reason or particularly adventurous? Doesn't intentionally making an artificial effort to reflect the real world, as it is or idealised, feel quite a wrong and/or mundane thing to do in fantasy writing?
TL;DR: The OP had a legit question and Kilsin gave a legit answer.
I'd love to see lots of interesting and diverse ideas in Terminus, but I hope VR feel no pressure to apply any kind of artificial 'measure' to the idea or to reflect the real world to any particular degree or in any particular way. Perhaps I'm weird but I hope that my character's skin colour and gender is pretty much immaterial to its adventuring life. I'd be happy if there were no choice of gender and just lots of character creator sliders to look how you like, but I'm not that bothered, because my avatar does not represent my real self and Terminus is not the real world and I specifically do *not* want it to feel that way, even an idealised version.
P.S.
I think one of the most interesting ideas in an MMORPG relating to gender and race was to do with the dwarves in Lord of the Rings online. I don't know if what I read about it is entirely true, but I like the concept and it is germaine to this thread, so I'll share it.
It was ironic because many thought it was horribly sexist that dwarves could only be 'male' in the LOTRO character creation. But, as is often the case, that was just a matter of real life human beings applying real life human being hang-ups to a fictional situation.
The reason dwarves could only be 'male' is apparently because dwarf males and females pretty much share pronouns in most situations, especially when referring to 'adventurous' types, and the kind of dwarves other races would see it in the world could be biologically male or female or whatever, but where referred to, by dwarves, using pronouns most similar to male ones, therefore it made perfect sense for dwarves to only choose 'male' in the game's character creator.
As far as most members of other races were concerned (including real life humans, it seems), all dwarves in LOTRO were male, because they all had beards and were strong like the males of their races. They were projecting their ideas of 'male' on both male, female (and possibly otherwise gendered - who knows) dwarves. The dwarves themselves didn't care about being called 'he' whatever they were, because they understood the other races had different concepts and it was actually pretty close to the way dwarves used one male-ish pronoun anyway.
It was also immaterial as far as what the dwarves, male or female, were like to play in the game.
As I say, I'm not sure that's the way Tolkien wrote the dwarves, but I like the concept as described.
So... Diversity is great and interesting, but reflecting real world concepts of gender and race into a fantasy world can already be an odd thing to do, never mind real world concepts of perceived diversity.
Maybe let's just let the creatives be creative?
@Donler I think it's a great question, thank you.
As a person of color, the biggest gripe I had with MMO's in the past is the skin tone availablity in the character creaters. I never pick human races, but if human skin tones are an available option for the race I do select then I much rather it be closer to my own complexion. It makes me resonate more with my character. However, I often find the options go from white to a tan color, which is frustrating.
If there are lore reasons for the range of available complexions, I totally get it. I don't want human skin colors for goblins that usually are different shades of green. I'm fine with dark elves ranging from greys to blacks. I don't think a new race, like the Erudite, needs to be implemented simply to allow for darker shades of brown though. Let humans, ogres, dwarves, and other races that don't have set-in-stone complexions have a realistic range of options if human complexions are available to them. It's a small thing that makes a big difference in making some groups feel more included and considered.
Another peeve are the hair options. It's always straight hair and then a huge afro or braids for the ethnic selections. Where's the curly hair?? I just want my male character to have curls for once before I get my first helmet and hide my hair for the rest of my in-game career.
As for Kilsin's responses, he's an employee representing a company. The replies have to be safe. I'm actually happy with the responses because it feels like something they're potentially discussing already. If they're not, then they can discuss them now with input from the community. Shooting the messenger though doesn't lead to great discourse and will make having these already challenging discussions even more difficult for fear of offending without intending to do so.
Turning from NPCs to character options - I agree entirely with Feastycentral. If feasible there should be options for a range of racial and ethnic groups at least on the human characters.
Hair styles are important - since we mostly see the backs of our characters. I look for long hair rather than curly but it would be nice to have a good range of options. For me it is more important since I always hide the helm so I can see the hair I spent so much time getting just right.
@dorotea that makes sense with the hair from your perspective.
I think I focused on the player vs NPC because I've never felt not-included from NPC interactions in these high fantasy worlds. It's always from how I'm allowed to represent myself in the world.
Even when black or latino culture is included it games, the trolls in WoW as an example, it feels so exaggerated and stereotypical that it doesn't feel genuine to me. Others might feel differently about identifying with in-game NPCs. For example, one of my first thoughts when I encountered those trolls was why pick that race vs a sub-group of humans? Then I continued to have a blast exploring that area in the game. However, I play games to escape from all the real world issues, so I enjoy it for what it is and try not to read too much into it.
Hell, maybe it would feel great to be able to culturally identify with the major NPCs in one of the MMO's I play, but I've never had that experience so who knows, lol.