Jobeson said:@kalok those high level mobs/content sprinkled into zones are only high level for launch. 4 expansions in will they still be high level and relevant? This is a part of the future problem the OP is addressing I believe. Overtime people just stop showing up to the least optimal zones, but a large part of that is the player population isn't pushing people to new areas because they are all sitting at end game.
I think it interesting that even Kilsin mentioned Progeny in promoting this to a hot topic
What makes you so sure there will be an "End Game" to "sit at"? Could End Game simply be a continius progeny back to Beginning Game for a never ending loop and forever relevant starting zones?
Zorkon said:I think it interesting that even Kilsin mentioned Progeny in promoting this to a hot topic
What makes you so sure there will be an "End Game" to "sit at"? Could End Game simply be a continius progeny back to Beginning Game for a never ending loop and forever relevant starting zones?
Every MMO with level ups has ended this way. Multiple MMOs have given all sorts of bonuses to alts but they have never created a system to even take a single mildly successful idea to add to Progeny. Shared bonus skill points, stat points, gear, banks, factions, homes, boats, etc. None of these have worked to keep the low levels populated long term. The only MMOs without this problem are MMOs without level up systems and that ship has sailed.
Joppa acknowledged one of the elephants in the room with Progeny as it was originally proposed, which is people not wanting to retire their old beloved mains they played for thousands of hours. I don't see too many people spending a thousand hours on a single PC, grinding out epics, grinding out masteries, doing all the raids, then just hitting a reset button for 5% more mana or whatever bonuses the progeny gives for doing it all over again. So not only does VR not have a soft baseline to copy from other MMOs, they don't even seem confident in their original plan.
If VR wants to channel maximum level characters into low level zones it is manifest that they can. Simply, and with or without a progeny system.
One of many possibilities - allow maximum level characters to temporarily revert to low level - something many games permit and encourage as a way to let people group across even wide differences in level. Give the reverted character an incentive to adventure in low level areas. 10% bonus AA experience if the game has an AA system - by whatever name. Drops from e.g. level 10 mobs that are equal to or *better* than what a maximum level mob would drop if the level 10 mob is killed by a reverted maximum level character. Drops of useful items - perhaps items with great rarity - that are only available in the game from killing enemies while a character is reverted to level X or below.
As to a progeny system there are ways to avoid or at least minimize the issues jobeson mentions. For example - again, one of many possibilities, suppose the maximum level character became level one and lost all of those epics, masteries, raid credits and the like. To get that 5% mana or whatever progeny gives. Ridiculous - no one would give up so much for so little - right? But now let us assume that at level 30 the character could revert back to maximum level. With all he or she had temporarily given up being regained - plus whatever the progeny system gave on top of it. Not quite so ridiculous. And a good incentive to recycle experienced players into level 1-30 zones even if the players hate, abhor, despise, abominate and detest the idea of ever having "alts".
How about not adding new full size zones. Add floors to dungeons, or reveal the entrance to a new dungeon, or conceal the entrance to an old dungeon, move mobs and quests around, but don't add huge new areas?
Server populations are unlikely to rise as fast as new zones could be added, so over time, the traditional path of adding new zones will spread out the population, making it a lonelier place.
I think there are two main issues being discussed here.
1.) Bringing player populations to all zones so that some zones don't go unexplored and relatively unused.
2.) Finding a way to keep lower level zones populated and active through things like the progeny system and mentoring.
Of these two, I believe the latter is the most important to the long-term health and success of the game. Having some zones go unused sucks for those who want to explore them, but can't find groups for it. It also sucks for the devs who invested tons of their time not see their labor appreciated. However, keeping lower level zones alive and populated, even if it's only done in the popular zones, is crucial for a game that emphasizes group play.
As someone who has, unfortunately, belatedly tried getting into some of the older more group-based MMO's, the hardest thing about them was finding groups despite these games having somewhat healthy max level populations. It may not be a fair comparison, but it does encapsulate the biggest problem for a game trying to encourage group play at all levels. I don't have any idea what the solution to this would be because it greatly depends on game design.
Most of those games that still thrive have done so by making their games more solo friendly. This includes allowing multi-boxing, adding NPC companions, providing stronger starter gear drops, etc. This is the easy way out and waters down the whole goal of their game which makes little sense to me. The ideal solution would be finding a way to reward higher level players for mentoring down and re-exploring those zones.
FFXIV does this best in their dungeons by providing rewards that allow higher levels to efficiently progress their characters by queueing for a dungeon roulette that can place you in a dungeon of any level. It's built into their system, and I've never had any issues running a desired dungeon in their game at any level. However, what would that look like in a non-party finding game with non-instanced dungeons? What tangible non-altruistic reward (because let's be realistic, if altruism worked none of those older games would have grouping issues) would improve the progress of higher level characters without any downsides? FFXIV doesn't have any downsides aside from your rotation goes out of whack from the removal of skills gained above the level you mentored down to. If it slowed your personal progress, most people would skip it just like many skip the longer roulette options.
The rewards would also have to be worthwhile for a max level mentoring down to level 15 as well as a level 30 mentoring down to 15. This will make it so even if there are 100 people online but only 2 are around level 10 and the rest are 25-50, those level 10's still have a high chance of others helping them explore and group in their level appropriate zone.
I personally think whoever can solve this problem would revolutionize group-based MMO games, and would be deserving of a Nobel Peace Prize.
@Suterian, if this is completely off base from your intended topic, just say so.
