I do not mind killing a few rats or bats or werecats. I am currently playing LotRO for a bit of nostalgic, shall we say, parrel-lore of middle earth sightseeing.
It is an old game of course, but the questing is of the painful rubber-banding ilk. I have become accustomed to dynamic on-the-go quest completion a la WoW, or deeper storylines moving me forward and through a zone/region as is typical in ESO. A quest hub can be a thing of course, but excessive, as in 4-5-6 times of returning to the same quest giver(s) and being drip-fed a single quest at a time for a small area I was just at, is a terrible, horrible and maddening experience.
I do not ascribe to the 'good old days were better.' Winnowing the wheat from the tares is my preference, and rubber-banding quests can be tossed in the consuming fire.
Here's to hoping that the questing I will be doing throughout Terminus will not give me whiplash. A perceptive Keeper I shall be.
Godspeed
I utterly despise, with every fiber of my being, a quest giver that just sends you back to the same place over and over to get another item, or items, for the next step in a quest when you could have gotten all the item the first time there. Speaking to the people who are making the quests, give me the entire list of items I need to gather instead of feeding me that list one item at a time.
I hope we get the same quest density like EQ had. Everquest by todays standarts in MMOS should have been named Neverquest. Just skip 99% of the simple quests and do a few good ones if you have to. I rather fight against mobs in a dungeon and get a fine reward there than doing quest after quest after quest like everyone. To me questhubs = playing on rails. An playing on rails = bad design
Ondark said:I hope we get the same quest density like EQ had. Everquest by todays standarts in MMOS should have been named Neverquest. Just skip 99% of the simple quests and do a few good ones if you have to. I rather fight against mobs in a dungeon and get a fine reward there than doing quest after quest after quest like everyone. To me questhubs = playing on rails. An playing on rails = bad design
Back in the long long ago (circa 2013-2014) the initial discussions about quests were definitely more in favor of fewer, but much higher quality, quests. There was a clear diferentiation between 'tasks' and 'quests'. Tasks were simple, single-step requests like 'go here and kill X of this (or retrieve some item) and bring it back. A 'quest' would be complex, having multiple steps, need extensive travel, possibly include some tradeskills where appropriate, and requiring some faction standings.
People in those discussions were all in favor of quests and not tasks. Tasks can be relegated to the lowest levels but should quickly be replaced by actual quests later on.
Go kill 10 pigs. Oh, I forgot to ask, I need some hides so please go back and get some pig hides. Drat my memory Is really bad - I also need some pig hooves please go back again. I agree that can get annoying.
I also really dislike quests that send you to get bear meat for dinner - and one of every 10 bears gives the drop and you need 5 drops. So ...wasteful. Unless you need a really perfect body for a taxidermist *every* bear is going to have meat. A lot of meat. Assuming you aren't out hunting with a disintegrator ray.
Obviously well done quests add a lot more value than tasks - but tasks can be easily created and put all over the world with little use of developer resources. They give us a chance to interact with the locals in many places without needing to have the much despised quest hubs. So I would argue - in fact I often have argued - that there should be hundreds and hundreds of tasks. Kill x. Protect y. Find z. Not in any sense *instead* of quests but to make the world a more lively and realistic place. Where a local isn't all that concerned about matters of world politics or even regional politics but cares greatly if her niece is missing or the wolves got two of his sheep or a rumored treasure may be in a local cave.
dorotea said:I also really dislike quests that send you to get bear meat for dinner - and one of every 10 bears gives the drop and you need 5 drops. So ...wasteful. Unless you need a really perfect body for a taxidermist *every* bear is going to have meat. A lot of meat. Assuming you aren't out hunting with a disintegrator ray.
I like to call this the 'Plastic Bear' phenomenon. WoW was terrible for this. The guy sent me for bear meat but all the Bears in the area seem to be made of Plastic. Send me to get Murloc eyes but the only Murloc's in the area seem to be from the Eyeless Murloc clan. Oh you want Wolf tails... to bad all the wolves in the area seem to be of a tail-less breed. And don't even ask about the Headless Kobold clan in the caves near the quest giver that requires Kobold Heads for some reason.
If you were asking for an item such as a medallion or a herb pouch or something, I can understand how it might not be carried by each and every enemy who you might kill. But if you ask me for the very substance (ie Meat) that a creature is literally made of, there should not be any chance that I do not obtain said substance on each and every kill.
Now I can hear the rebuttals saying something like "But maybe the Meat is damaged in the fight." or "The Murloc eyes might have got poked out in the process of killing them." To this I say... if I were mearly killing said Murloc's to loot their pockets I may not be to careful about poking their eyes out while killing them. But if the only reason I am hunting these Murloc's is to harvest their eyeballs you know I'm going to be extra careful not to aim my attacks in the general eye socket area. Just as any Hunter when shooting at a Moose (yes I'm Canadian) in the forest knows not to spoil the meat with a poorly aimed shot.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:dorotea said:I also really dislike quests that send you to get bear meat for dinner - and one of every 10 bears gives the drop and you need 5 drops. So ...wasteful. Unless you need a really perfect body for a taxidermist *every* bear is going to have meat. A lot of meat. Assuming you aren't out hunting with a disintegrator ray.
I like to call this the 'Plastic Bear' phenomenon. WoW was terrible for this. The guy sent me for bear meat but all the Bears in the area seem to be made of Plastic. Send me to get Murloc eyes but the only Murloc's in the area seem to be from the Eyeless Murloc clan. Oh you want Wolf tails... to bad all the wolves in the area seem to be of a tail-less breed. And don't even ask about the Headless Kobold clan in the caves near the quest giver that requires Kobold Heads for some reason.
If you were asking for an item such as a medallion or a herb pouch or something, I can understand how it might not be carried by each and every enemy who you might kill. But if you ask me for the very substance (ie Meat) that a creature is literally made of, there should not be any chance that I do not obtain said substance on each and every kill.
Now I can hear the rebuttals saying something like "But maybe the Meat is damaged in the fight." or "The Murloc eyes might have got poked out in the process of killing them." To this I say... if I were mearly killing said Murloc's to loot their pockets I may not be to careful about poking their eyes out while killing them. But if the only reason I am hunting these Murloc's is to harvest their eyeballs you know I'm going to be extra careful not to aim my attacks in the general eye socket area. Just as any Hunter when shooting at a Moose (yes I'm Canadian) in the forest knows not to spoil the meat with a poorly aimed shot.
I agree, and the worst part is it's simply the narrative of the task that has little regard for reality. In the example dorotea gives the bottom line is you need to kill 50 bears.
Let every bear drop bear meat (of course they would)
Change the reason the qest giver needs the meat, not just for dinner but to supply dinner for the guest at his daughters wedding.
you now still have the end result, you need to kill 50 bears.
Now this creates another possible problem however...
Bear Meat, Bear Claws, Bears Heart, etc.
Does every bear drop all these? Add in Snake fangs, skins, feet(from the kicking snakes) and real soon the trash loot becomes a real issue.
One reason I like quests and, yes, even tasks, is because they give me a reason to do things other than the 3xp per kill and 5 copper pieces per drop. Some people enjoy pure grinding and endless camping. I ...do not.
A supplement to quests and tasks - to help keep things interesting - would be very rare drops that either can be sold for a lot more or have an interesting use. Rather than one in every thousand wolves being a rare named with a special loot table - maybe one in every thousand wolves could give a perfect body suitable for taxidermy. Placeable in a house or town square after the taxidermy work. Or a rare white skin from an albino wolf that a furrier would pay a lot for. Or a crafter could use to make a special item. Yes the taxidermy idea came straight from LOTRO.
Like quests and tasks (and thus my mention of it in this thread) this would make grinding and camping more interesting even without having to find a spot where a named animal rarely spawns.
I am also annoyed that every bear doesn't drop meat. But I'm also disappointed that the bear meat isn't butchered and the hides aren't skinned. That the items are specific to that quest, and not generic crafting mats that the quest giver wants. I can see specific items like eyes or claws maybe aren't very useful in crafting, but creative devs can find a way. I understand this increases the chance of items being used to PL, and not just for starter quests, but limit or remove repeatable tasks and don't give so much experience that it's easier to level than just killing.
New World, while it has it's issues, does this pretty well. The NPCs give quests, and boards give tasks. Tasks are repeatable, and give far too much experience, but you can only get a few per hour. Almost all items are harvest/craft items, no special task only items, those are usually left for the quests.
Something that single player games tend to do well on and MMO's tend to miss when it comes to quest structure is purpose. Why is my character here? What is its purpose in this world? Single player games quests tend to move a character toward their purpose. Uncovering clues, getting items they will need, recruiting talent, etc. Even when quests become grindy where your character has to retrieve stuff for someone else, do menial labor, or hustle for cash, it serves their overall goals and moves their story forward. MMO's on the other hand tend to drop you into an sandbox with no backstory, no reason for being, and no guidence other than to level up and make money. To become powerful for power's sake. I really hope the Pantheon Quest structure and story in general really push to break the typical MMO pitfalls. No more players wondering "why have I spent the last two hours picking pumpkins in this farmer's field? Oh, because that farmer had an exclamation point above his head and my purpose in this world is to destroy all exclamation points"
at it's basic level, I think a quest should involve 1 big reach. or something you may have to wait for completion.
Delivering mail is a quest if you are level 1 and have to deliver mail to an area populated by hostile level 5's. Or if you are level 10 and at a step you discover you need to expose certain townsfolk - in various public areas in town- that become hostile and yellow con to you that you have to defeat, in addition to the typical - go to far place and against all odds defeat the somethingorother to get the McGuffin.
*edit*
A quest should involve making the player act/play the game in a manner contrary to their established culture/role/class and then come to a point where they have to choose between the established way or the new way or no way in order to complete that stage the choice which will affect the outcome. in other words having to make a morally ambiguous choice.
I have promoted this topic as part of my CM content; please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Hot Topic - Quest Structure - Fetch and return, kill X amount of rats, and deliver this important "thing" to someone...what are the most memorable quests you have completed and what type of quests would you like to see more of in Pantheon? https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13906/quest-structure"
Sarim said:But I really, really need "HIGH QUALITY BEAR MEAT"! :)
Definitely agree that common stuff should drop...commonly or always. Hope the quest (task!) designers are reasonable here.
I seem to recall that in SWG the drop rate was pretty good, but you needed Harvesting as a skill. So not sure that equates to this but it was a way to get items for crafting (rather than questing) more reliably. That said SWG had a different dynamic for making like hard with different types of meat, wheat, etc. Maybe something like that would be possible for crafters? I guess the checkboxes for questing make it harder to make the drop rate work better for some players with a skill than gives them a benefit. Otherwise you're kind of stuck between a trivial drop rate and a low chance of a drop.
Personally I most enjoy finding out about quests by not having the glowing neon sign above the quest givers head. As long as we can avoid that I will put up with the quest grind. I really liked the explanation of quests and tasks though by dorotea, that really makes a lot of sense to me.
Kilsin said:
"Hot Topic - Quest Structure - Fetch and return, kill X amount of rats, and deliver this important "thing" to someone...what are the most memorable quests you have completed and what type of quests would you like to see more of in Pantheon? "
I really dislike most MMO quests because they are mostly all the same boring, repetitive actions dressed up with boilerplate text. I don't find the narratives interesting nor do they actually make me feel like I'm making any change to the world.
The few quests I do enjoy have most of these elements:
City of Heroes has bank missions which I like. They are light on narrative, but are short and timed (creating a sense of urgency), have unique elements (destruction), are a challenge, can be failed, and you can get more time by completing specific tasks. They present different objectives and force you to react dynamically.
If we do have 'kill X number of Y' quests. X needs to be 1 or all of Y. Everything else feels arbitrary and pulls me right out of being immersed in a world into 'I'm playing a game'. And if I must kill X, give me a dialog reply that says "Why X? That seems arbitrary and overly specific".
In response to: "Hot Topic - Quest Structure"... The best Quest Chain/Dynamic Event I've ever seen: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outpost:_Jaka_Itzel
The 'Outpost: Jaka Itzel' Quest would appear from time to time to time within the GW2 Heart of Thorns expansion and is the most memorable quest I've ever played. This timed area-wide quest was visibly obvious to players and required teamwork from multiple players with an opportunity to fail at most steps (particularly the timed steps), and each area where the quest moved-to visibly appeared to change the environment or NPC interaction/mentality. I'd participate in this area-event quest chain whenever I saw it because it was really memorable and made me feel like I was making a difference helping those NPCs.
I prefer quests I don't need to flag for to obtain items. Especially quests that send me to multiple places around the world to finish, not strictly local/regional. I have fond memories of the armor quests around level 25-35 in EQ for many classes sending me for random bits in dungeons all over the world.
Donler said:In response to: "Hot Topic - Quest Structure"... The best Quest Chain/Dynamic Event I've ever seen: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outpost:_Jaka_Itzel
The 'Outpost: Jaka Itzel' Quest would appear from time to time to time within the GW2 Heart of Thorns expansion and is the most memorable quest I've ever played. This timed area-wide quest was visibly obvious to players and required teamwork from multiple players with an opportunity to fail at most steps (particularly the timed steps), and each area where the quest moved-to visibly appeared to change the environment or NPC interaction/mentality. I'd participate in this area-event quest chain whenever I saw it because it was really memorable and made me feel like I was making a difference helping those NPCs.
These kinds of quests I tend to find offputting, they read like giant neon "THEMEPARK/THIS IS A GAME" sign while playing. While they can be fun or interesting the first time they quickly detrail from the "world" feel in favor of a themepark game when the event starts on repeat and you see these things happening over and over again.
It has the opposite effect on me where I feel like none of it matters and I am not helping these NPCs at all. Where if I were just running out and doing a quest for an NPC somewhere and doing certain tasks then returning to their thanks and reward - if I don't see any scripted events or anything then I can assume I did help them in the long run. I'll never come back and see Marduk the Great leading his armies yet again to attack.
Yes Marduk was rather ...persistant. Maybe because the developers waived any death penalty for him.
Since we have many different views - some polar opposites - I think a key is as noted above to have them optional. By optional I don't mean literally since that goes almost without saying. I mean that no quest or task gives such an extreme reward that we feel compelled to do it even if we hate it. Or has significant amounts of content "gated" behind doing it.
With a few exceptions, of course. If the game has anything like "epic quests" they will be long, complicated, require groups or raids for parts of them, and give epic rewards. I do not at all read Counterfleche as objecting to this kind of quest which by definition is very rare and usually aimed at giving us specific items or new character abilities.
Fortunately Pantheon will not be a game where our character does things of world or universe spanning importance and needs to follow a script in lockstep to get to where an overarching story requires him or her to be. As in LOTRO or SWTOR or many many others.
Iksar said:I prefer quests I don't need to flag for to obtain items. Especially quests that send me to multiple places around the world to finish, not strictly local/regional. I have fond memories of the armor quests around level 25-35 in EQ for many classes sending me for random bits in dungeons all over the world.
I'd much rather see a Journal of achievements that tallies how many mobs you've defeated, with rewards along the way.
Quests should be epical and rare, not something that you have to do every day to max out your exp gains.
A storyline quest system ensures that I will be playing alone, not in a group whose members are likely on a different step.
Definately a hot topic, feel like i've been having this talk with friends for nearly the last two decades lol. one thing i feel like often ignored and maybe implied or talked bout previous in that referanced long ago conversation about tasks versus quests is that the base mechanics aren't something you can get away from. so many times this discussion happens and most everyone is bemoaning kill, gather, deliver, escort as if that's why everything feels stale. meanwhile i'm sitting here going "okay, but that's litterally the game at it's core" like there are only so many mechanics available for use as an objective. what's making quests feel stale to everyone is the dressing draped over those mechanics; which has been touch on a lot here already. unfortunately i feel like the majority of that dressing gets ignored once a certain point of QoL features have been added. I'm not saying all QoL is bad but that there's a ballance that needs to be maintained; and that is an even hotter topic with a wide range of preferences.
personally I can't think of any particularly memorable quests over the years. closest thing i can think of were some of the old GM events in EQ. one in particular was a halloween event that they completely overhualed one of the karana's and mobs within for like a week with limited time only drops including some armor my scrub of a warrior used for a long time after. I feel events like this and kithikor forest were kind of an early version of world event/bosses you see in a lot of mmo's today such as FF14. events like kithikor makes the world feel alive and involves lore the player wants to delve into after their first time getting caught in the forest at night vs the modern day world events that happen in a 50 square foot area that's avoidable, clearly marked on map during, and feel like nothing more than a box to check for the player. that is the diference in QoL and dressing of a mechanic. at the core those are both world events running off the same mechanic of changing an area for limited time but I wont be talking to anyone in twenty years about how terrifying or fun a random event in FF14 was; but i couldnt tell you how many time's i've told friends about the horrors of kithikor as a low level noob player.
To make it feel like 'a world' and not 'a game' it's very important to not have 'fake' barriers/keys to progress quests.
As some have noted, there's nothing more annoying (and unimmersive) than meeting an NPC with a "Please save us and defeat The Evil Knight" quest and you just killed The Evil Knight on your way there and have to go and do it again to progress the quest you didn't have when you did it first time...
It is rare, but does happen, that some games recognise you have already 'done' a quest and gives you the option of handing in The Evil Knight's signet ring (that dropped from the earlier fight) there and then or even gives the option of dialog with the NPC to say "I already dealt with The Evil Knight" (only if you actually did, of course) and there's a suitably surprised and delighted response.
This is more coding for devs, of course, but a much more immersive, smart and impressive way to deal with it.
In Everquest it always seemed like there was a ton of 'trash' items in the world, which could be sold to vendor NPCs, but I remember reading - not sure if it was 100% true, but I think close - that all items had *some* use in *some* quest or task *somewhere*.
This also gives more of a 'world' not 'game' feeling. You could even 'dumpster dive' for quest items with vendors near to where those items are obtained if you knew they were quest items and a lot of people didn't. There were often items used in crafting that could also be handed in for a quest reward.
Would love to see smart and immersive quest progression in Pantheon.
disposalist said:In Everquest it always seemed like there was a ton of 'trash' items in the world, which could be sold to vendor NPCs, but I remember reading - not sure if it was 100% true, but I think close - that all items had *some* use in *some* quest or task *somewhere*.
I think this is really important. Maybe not necessarily that every single item is part of some quest, but that you can pick them up regardless of if you've encountered/accepted the quest or not. In a lot of games the quest items will only drop if you have already accepted the quest. It feels very artificial and can also lead to the same situation as the example with the Evil Knight. I've collected my 10 bear asses so many times only to realize there was another quest for bear ass cheeks that I could've done at the same time but now I need to go kill more bears.
dorotea said:Since we have many different views - some polar opposites - I think a key is as noted above to have them optional. By optional I don't mean literally since that goes almost without saying. I mean that no quest or task gives such an extreme reward that we feel compelled to do it even if we hate it. Or has significant amounts of content "gated" behind doing it.
Agreed. I'm fine with there being all kinds of quests; I just don't want to be defacto compelled to do them. As soon as it becomes something I have to do, it becomes a chore and I lose any interest I may have had in it. Especially since it's now standing in the way of me doing what I want.
With a few exceptions, of course. If the game has anything like "epic quests" they will be long, complicated, require groups or raids for parts of them, and give epic rewards. I do not at all read Counterfleche as objecting to this kind of quest which by definition is very rare and usually aimed at giving us specific items or new character abilities.
You are basically correct. They don't have to be long or complicated so much as strategically / tactically challenging. And I much prefer that It's not unique to my character or class since that would put the onus on me to recruit and lead a group. I want it to be something where the whole group can complete it together. And I definitely don't want it to be a solo quest.
If it must be unique per character (like it's class-based or something), then make it so compelling or so rewarding for other players that they will hope you have it available and will want to run it.
If a quest is compelling enough to be worth running, there is no need to require it. Thus, making it required is a tacit acknowledgment that it's not compelling.
The more games that I play the more I appreciate EQ's approach to quests, even if perhaps it was accidental or a result of certain limitations.
I love RPGs, they are the game I play the most, but boy can they get up their own butts about quests, even in single player titles. They want to make sure you have the quest first which can often mean going to an area then coming back and discovering, oh look there's a quest for me that wasn't here before. Why? Borderlands may have been the worst about this. I swear I have done fewer than half the quests in any of those games because they never show up until after I have completed the story line for the area. Why couldn't I fetch your rotten skag meat while I was traveling through skag central the first time? Why does this single player/co-op game even need twenty quests in an area? Why does any game need to throw all of those at you?
I think VR is in a good position here with Pantheon because they've already established there won't be ten million quests meant to fast track you to max level. They also don't necessarily need to have every NPC trash drop tie into a quest/task. Quests can be few and far between. Found in the depths of caves or at the tops of mountains and whispered about in the corners of taverns. You might also hear about how an alchemist could really use another twelve or twenty giant bat fangs. You just happen to have a load of them you picked up in your travels (someone in your group mentioned they could be used to make potions.) Or maybe there's a standing bounty on Wraiths in Sorhiryth. Bring some kind of proof to any Guard Captain and receive a small reward.
Quests can arise organically from play. The player starts the game and enters the world, then quests entice them deeper into the world. Rather than starting the game and walking over to the nearest floating glowing thing that only they can see. (It would be funny though if there was a NPC somewhere who had a hat that looked like a big arrow or something.)