Forums » Pantheon Classes

Make 1-Handed Melee Viable

    • 888 posts
    August 6, 2022 5:46 PM PDT

    One-handed melee with nothing in the off-hand should be a viable option. In most games, an empty hand is just a wasted slot.  If we got bonuses for fighting this way, it would become a viable option that adds diversity to several classes. 

    1H fighting bonuses could include faster movement in combat,  reduced stamina drain, use of special 1H techniques, increased chance of dodging, etc. 

    Bonus points would be an emote where we throw the weapon from one hand to another,  Inigo  Montoya style.

    • 2000 posts
    August 6, 2022 6:53 PM PDT

    Counterfleche said:

    One-handed melee with nothing in the off-hand should be a viable option. In most games, an empty hand is just a wasted slot.  If we got bonuses for fighting this way, it would become a viable option that adds diversity to several classes. 

    1H fighting bonuses could include faster movement in combat,  reduced stamina drain, use of special 1H techniques, increased chance of dodging, etc. 

    Bonus points would be an emote where we throw the weapon from one hand to another,  Inigo  Montoya style.

    For classes whose role is not DPS (and who don't carry a specialty item in their offhand) I don't see any problem with this idea. Perhaps it could improve the survivability or group support of those characters. For a DPS, I wonder how you can make it viable if the character does significantly less damage than they would wielding a 2-hander. If they can approach the damage output of a 2-hander while having an advantage - like taking less damage for the healer to replenish for example - then doesn't that diminish the value of having a 2-hander?

     

    Tossing one's weapons around à la Inigo would be cool to see, for sure.


    This post was edited by Jothany at August 6, 2022 6:55 PM PDT
    • 326 posts
    August 6, 2022 7:56 PM PDT

     

    One-handed you say? Here is a torch for that empty hand!

    • 888 posts
    August 10, 2022 11:41 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    For classes whose role is not DPS (and who don't carry a specialty item in their offhand) I don't see any problem with this idea. Perhaps it could improve the survivability or group support of those characters. For a DPS, I wonder how you can make it viable if the character does significantly less damage than they would wielding a 2-hander. If they can approach the damage output of a 2-hander while having an advantage - like taking less damage for the healer to replenish for example - then doesn't that diminish the value of having a 2-hander?

     

    I envision it more for DPS and as a way to create another viable playstyle.  A duelist with a quick blade and quick movement.  I don't see it diminishing 2-hand value, instead it just offers an alternative and more player choice.

     

    • 2752 posts
    August 12, 2022 11:37 AM PDT

    I'm not sure how that would work out. How do you balance a single weapon vs people dual wielding or using two handers?

     

    Would they have to create specific weapons that can only be used with a free hand? Would those weapons attack faster than other weapons? How would that figure into procs or possible weapon enchantments? Would they be completely shutout by mobs with thorns/damage reflect? 

    • 1479 posts
    August 13, 2022 3:34 PM PDT

    I remember in EQ2, there were AA/passives in a line named "Coule" that would vastly increase your efficiency should you wield only one weapon. It dubbed at somewhere 70 or 100% to double attack on every auto attack you did with other bonuses like weaponskill and so, enforcing a fencer gameplay.

     

    However it ended killed over time due to :

    -Enough AA to adds in multiple treelines, that would benefit from dual wielding more

    -Too much stats to pass on an offhand

    -Double attack beeing on gear making the coule bonus offer zero compensation for it

     

    The idea was, however, interesting if it was shaped in a way that would make it worthwile.

    • 888 posts
    August 14, 2022 11:50 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    I'm not sure how that would work out. How do you balance a single weapon vs people dual wielding or using two handers?

     

    Would they have to create specific weapons that can only be used with a free hand? Would those weapons attack faster than other weapons? How would that figure into procs or possible weapon enchantments? Would they be completely shutout by mobs with thorns/damage reflect? 

    Creating one-hand only weapons (that require the other hand to remain free) is definately one option. If they do that, they would be free to balance it by making the weapon much more powerful than normal one handed weapons.  They could also create weapons that give extra stats or procs only when wielded this way (which is better, IMO, since it creates balance but is still flexible enough to allow for use even if you're using something in your other hand).

    • 612 posts
    August 15, 2022 12:34 AM PDT

    Counterfleche said:

    Creating one-hand only weapons (that require the other hand to remain free) is definately one option. If they do that, they would be free to balance it by making the weapon much more powerful than normal one handed weapons.

    Would this not just be the definition of a 2-handed weapon? Even if graphically and animation wise it is just in 1 hand, it's basically a 2-handed weapon for all intents and purposes. You'd have to justify it in lore somehow for why a 1-handed weapon could only be used if your other hand is free, like requiring your other hand to be held in a special position for the techniques of thrusting or something like that. But no matter how you explain it, your basically just describing a 2-handed weapon due to the style or balance of the weapon.

    They could also create weapons that give extra stats or procs only when wielded this way (which is better, IMO, since it creates balance but is still flexible enough to allow for use even if you're using something in your other hand).

    This basically requires them to build in an entirely new system in the code that allows for stats to be dependent on if you are using the weapon alone or with another weapon. This adds all sorts of complexities both in coding, but also in balancing itemization across the entire spectrum. All of this just to try and cater to a very niche roleplay element of wanting to use a 1-handed weapon but not duel wield.

    • 13 posts
    August 17, 2022 4:46 AM PDT

    This basically requires them to build in an entirely new system in the code

    It's really not a lot of code to simply check if off-hand is empty, and assign a static bonus to your main hand.  Some classes could qualify for dueling style, and it's in the classes code.

    All of this just to try and cater to a very niche roleplay element

    I wouldn't say it's "very niche" if Inigo Mantoya and the Dread Pirate Roberts both used it!  Not to mention classic sword fighting still modeled today in the sport of fencing.

    • 2752 posts
    August 17, 2022 12:19 PM PDT

    For movies sure, but I believe historically even rapiers/fencing weapons were almost always accompanied by a buckler or dagger in the offhand (and not really weapons for war).


    This post was edited by Iksar at August 17, 2022 12:19 PM PDT
    • 888 posts
    August 17, 2022 3:32 PM PDT

    There's two basic ways to implement this idea:

    1. 1. Create a standard 1-handed bonus that applies any time you have an empty hand.  Note that this could be expanded to allow for bigger bonuses to things like agility, dodge, and stamina if both hands are empty.
    2. 2. Create specific bonuses and attach them to weapons. This would be more work but could make for some interesting gameplay. You could end up swapping between dual wield and one handed, depending upon circumstances. 

     

    Iksar said:

    For movies sure, but I believe historically even rapiers/fencing weapons were almost always accompanied by a buckler or dagger in the offhand (and not really weapons for war).

    Fencing had three weapons:

    1. Epee (dueling sword)
    2. Foil (practice for dueling)
    3. Sabre (calvary sword)
    • 945 posts
    August 23, 2022 6:40 AM PDT

    I love the idea of a "duelist" or "musketeer fencing" type of fighting style - a good way to sate the need to "fill" the offhand slot would be to have something like a "duelist's glove" (which were heavy leather or light metal gloves that could be used to parry/deflect light blades) that provides stats to improve mainhand attacks and/or dodge/parry stats.

    Maybe the guantlet can grant a bonus to taunt too... as you remove it to slap your opponent in the face haha!


    This post was edited by Darch at August 23, 2022 6:48 AM PDT
    • 888 posts
    August 29, 2022 8:35 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    I love the idea of a "duelist" or "musketeer fencing" type of fighting style - a good way to sate the need to "fill" the offhand slot would be to have something like a "duelist's glove" (which were heavy leather or light metal gloves that could be used to parry/deflect light blades) that provides stats to improve mainhand attacks and/or dodge/parry stats.

    Maybe the guantlet can grant a bonus to taunt too... as you remove it to slap your opponent in the face haha!

    I really like this idea.  It accomplishes one-handed viability without changing game mechanics.  And it uses an interesting equipment item that could offer great customization potential. I could make an all-black duelist with one red glove. I really love the idea of a /slap or /challenge emote.

    • 945 posts
    September 7, 2022 9:35 AM PDT

    @Counterfleche - Ya, I think an offhand item with stat boosts is the easiest way to make already existing 1h weapons viable without having to change anything with code.  There could be different "duelest gloves" that provided offset benefits like Haste, Damage reduction (less than a shield) or even added damage effects and bonuses to very specific class skills to kind of persuade classes to play differently and maybe even use skills that may otherwise never be used.  i.e. a glove that perhaps allowed the use of "Pilfer" in combat, but also significantly increased threat generation (along with the other stats with higher level gear) - so it could be desireable to tanks (or a monk) but also valuable to a sly rogue wanting to pick pockets and pop smoke when they get threat.  This would be very fun with the random stat generation on items and really give life to the player trade economy.

    Imagine a duelist gauntlet that did something like grant the use of shield abilities that normally require an equiped shield for the warrior or paladin (while increasing their 1h damage)?  That would be hyper valuable haha.

    • 7 posts
    July 1, 2023 4:20 AM PDT

    I agree, being able to remain a duelist with only one 1-handed weapon would be very nice. At the same time, 2-handed weapons should not be necessarily made as overly clunky, because the additional muscle aids in striking force and quicker recovery from each swing.

    On another point, I believe that dual wielding should not be as common as it was in the older MMOs affected by pop-culture. As humans are a featured race, and the other ones seem to share many traits as humanoids (with the exception of ogres being quite larger, and the archai being made from different substances), we can assume that most of our laws of physics also apply. Dual wielding just wasn't as efficient and had equally as many disadvantages as it did have advantages to actual warriors in the medieval times. There were some masters like Miyamoto Musashi using two swords, but they were not of equal size as well (the off-hand blade was a shortsword or a dagger).
    Some of the biggest offenders I've seen in early Pantheon videos were dual wielding spears... I mean what's the point of that (pun not intended).

    I think that an off-hand item would be the best solution to this case, if an item needs to be included at all. Otherwise, a passive effect "Duelist" could as well boost the weapon's stats appropriately (eg. 1.5x). Other than that, in my opinion dual wielding should be largely reduced to what can be done to maintain a sense of what we could do ourselves (even if we could do magic) for that additional level of immersion we'd have in Pantheon.

    And for the people interested in plausibility of dual wielding, I'm linking the two videos from Skallagrim: Two HEMA instructors comment on dual wielding swords and A Few Thoughts on Dual Wielding and the Cross-Block

    • 8 posts
    July 17, 2023 4:51 PM PDT
    • You're not gonna have an empty slot in your hand unless weight is a factor like in Souls games. 
    • The idea of a "2h" sword moddled to look like a 1h is a good idea because then you can equip a torch, war horn, magic relic, hand crossbow, banner, ect...
    • The complete lack of a use of the left hand seems more like a flex. Perhaps a combat stlye that uses 1h for certain abilities and a swap to 2h use of your weapon for other abilities...like the GW2 weapon swaping mechaic?