Kinda covered this is the medieval combat animations thread recently, but to summarise: -
Yes, realistic animations are important. There has to be a level of realism even in a fantasy game. If things are not, at their core, grounded, believable and convincing (within a particular fantasy realm's lore) then the game will feel fake and weird. Immersion is much easier if a game is convincing.
Personal preference is I prefer fantasy to be quite gritty and down-to-earth. Not constant over-the-top, bizarre, spectacular, flashy and over-blown. This is, of course, a difficult line to tread when a fantasy world includes pretty widely used magic.
For example, when a character is performing 'mundane' (non-magical) actions I don't want to see manga-esque, gravity-defying, physically wildly impossible acrobatic moves. Now, of course, things can be somewhat 'exaggerated' when a character is being particularly heroic - yes, my hero may be extremely fit and capable - but if you go too far, it feels fake, weird and childish. Suspension of disbelief will only stretch so far.
For another example, when a wizard is casting a spell, of course the spell effect will be fantastic and 'unreal', but I would expect the wizard to act under realistic constraints, like in order to target the spell, he must be able to see the target. They shouldn't be levitating and teleporting around unless the are casting a levitate or teleport spell. Again, if a casting hero is being particularly 'heroic' they might rise into the air while casting a powerful spell, but again, take it too far - have every little spell spin the character through the air in a blinding light show - and it becomes jarringly over-the-top.
We are not toddlers that need clowns and flashing colours to hold our attention. Quite the opposite.
I suppose, essentially, it's like the difference between 'bad' and 'good' acting. If an actor hams it up with over-dramatic, wild, exaggerated gestures, everyone is unconvinced and made hugely aware they are watching (bad) acting. If the actor is subtle and believable and only takes the heights of their performance to the edge of believability for the situation they are in, the audience is convinced, drawn in and immersed.
If movement is fluid and seamless, then that is the main thing for me. Realistic comes next (coupled within the fantasy element).
I would go further and ask that contacts also affect animations. If a character is hit, then I would like to see them recoil from the impact, maybe the harder a hit, the bigger the recoil. I would like to see a wizard launching a bolt or a fireball be pushed away from its firing.
The little things make a big difference.
Realism is just as important in high fantasy as in any other genre. No .....more important.
First the writer or developer sets the parameters. Whatever rules for the universe are desired for the book or game - as fantastic as desired.
Then everything else needs to be realistic - but realistic to the basic groundrules. So if a basic law of the universe is that gravity changes every 5 minutes having gravity change is realisitic and having it work like the so-called real world is extremely unrealistic and would require some good explanation - special magic or deific intervention for example.
Flowing, realistic animations are extremely satisfying to watch. After some time you tend to tune out what your character is doing, but I definitely tend to notice particularly well done or particularly goofy animations from time to time even after I've played for a long time. EQ2 had a bad habit of leaving the animations as some variation of "swinging your arms wildly" and anytime I took a break from that game of more than a few days I would alwyas get a little repulsed by just how terrible character movement was in general.
Kilsin said:Even though Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is a high fantasy game, are realistic combat animations important to you? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
I connect more with my character if the moves make sense. But also as long as I can visually distinguish what that character is doing while in combat.
I do not intent to play a game where it feels more like a dance off with my character bouncing around in a blurry haze.
A combat animation can be heroic or a long time to cast/complete but that only holds up to a certain point.
There are already so many combat/ritualistic moves that a human has displayed throughout the years and continents that it provides a wide array of options.
I don't expect my character to make complex moves from the start. Less is more.
Combat animations do not need to be super pretty or realistic in my opinion, but they do need to be correctly synchronized with their respective abilities in order to provide the best feedback possible to the player. The timing has to be tight between the application of damage and visual representation of the impact.
E.g. I do not like WoW. However one has to appreciate the fact that the characters combat animations are super tuned do their abilities which results in a very good feedback to the player.
Edit: Also want to had that each ability should have its own animation, at least per class. This makes it a lot easier to figure out what going on around you in a group/raid scenario.
Most of the finer points I can think of have already been mentioned, and I agree with those above.
The little I can add is this:
Barin999 said: Less is more.
I could enjoy much flashier animations in a single player game where I was the only one casting vulns and hurling fireballs. When surrounded by a group of others - as well as some number of enemies - doing the same, my screen can easily get too 'busy' and turn into meaningless visual noise.
After viewing the same exact movement hundreds of times, I tend to stop being conciously aware of it. But (my) perception being what it is, I seem to easily ignore those things that I like, and always notice those things which I don't like. An animation that is poorly done, out of sync or blatantly over-the-top compared to most others will always remind me of how dumb it looks.
I'd prefer simple, fluid, easily recognized animations.
Realistic to real world combat? Absolutely not. Real fighting (with fast weapons) is lightning quick and often uses small actions that even experienced observers can struggle to comprehend. It doesn't translate into gaming well since we need large, visually distinct actions that are slow enough to interpret and react to.
Realistic to theatrical / game world combat? Yes. I want to be immersed in the believability of the game. I don't feel highly stylized combat fits with what Pantheon is trying to do. I do hope for some variety in styles, but the styles need to all feel real. And there needs to be a minimum of visual effect clutter, especially with martial weapons. Most games end up with Pigpen-like clouds of effect spam that hides the action.
chenzeme said:I would go further and ask that contacts also affect animations. If a character is hit, then I would like to see them recoil from the impact, maybe the harder a hit, the bigger the recoil. I would like to see a wizard launching a bolt or a fireball be pushed away from its firing.
This opens up some interesting, unintended consequences. I'd love to see a wizard accidentally push themself backwards off a cliff by casting fireball. The rest of the group will then try to type out "Newton's 3rd Law" before the wizard hits the ground.
Counterfleche said: The rest of the group will then try to type out "Newton's 3rd Law" before the wizard hits the ground.
Your group must be much more academically inclined than most of my groups.
We would all be peering over the edge, waiting to see Newton's 1st Law in action.
:)
Kilsin said:Even though Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is a high fantasy game, are realistic combat animations important to you? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
Absolutely the combat animations should be realistic in that they should fit the reality that is Terminus.
EDIT: I'll add that all animations should have the appropriate amount of weight and intertia representative of the weapon wielded.
Combat animations are kind of important to me but I don't know if realistic is the term I'd use to describe what matters to me. Whatever the animations are, they need to feel smooth and natural to me.
I don't really want to see character jumping 15 feet into the air and slamming their massive hammer down onto a mob from above...that is too unrealistic for me. There's a line somewhere on the realism scale for my liking, but I think smooth, natural, and how they flow is probably more important to me.
If by "realistic combat animations" you mean making contact with your target rather than swatting at the air three feet away, then yes that would be satisfying.
Barring contact being made, I would settle for visually recognizable and distinct animations between weapon types.
Of particular note, as opined by chenzeme, having a caster exhibit 'kick back' from high power spells would be a great feedback/visual.
Dropping a weapon due to a disarm or critical failure/spell-reflect of some sort would be immersive to be sure. What a great 'oh crap" moment...
I don't have a problem with super flashy over the top combat animations like this in Tera... If they are in Tera. That game was fun when I played it, but nothing about it tried to achieve realism, from the armor, to the weapons, to the architecture. So when the world you live in is completely unrealistic then unrealistic combat animations can be fun; you have already suspended your disbelief.
But for a game like Pantheon where you are staying true to the High Fantasy Pen&Paper/MUD RPG roots it would be incredibly wierd to have the big flashy animations. With Pantheon when the combat dialog says "You hit a gas bat with your axe for 50 points of damage" I basically want to just see a corresponding swing of my axe. Even abilities should be pretty subdued. It should be something an athletic well trained flesh and blood humanoid could pull off in Earth-like gravity.
Or I could have just quoted Vandraad who summed up my whole thing in one line.
I agree with Counterfleche. Verisimilitude is much more important than strict realism. Animations should appear real-ish, believable, and consistent. We should be able to reason correctly how things should work out.
Simplification and exaggeration for effect are acceptable, if it makes the game playable.
VR should aim for what I would call fluid animations. A spear and shield shouldn't teleport into your hands from your back. A door should swing open rather than pop instantly open. Spears shouldn't be swung like really long one handed clubs. The animations are there to help tell the story of what is happening and it needs to make a baseline level of sense. If I am bonking someone with a spear it should do bludgeoning damage. Animation need to be understandable and not perfect. Sheathing and unsheathing a sword doesn't have to fit perfectly. There can be a little clipping few will notice or care. Such as in Witcher 3 where the swords clip through the sheathes in the drawing and sheathing animations.
The fluff: The further you go into the basics the cooler it can look, but it doesn't change as much on the game. I love when the character actuallys steps on a step instead of an invisible ramp near a stair texture. I would love to grab cracks in a wall instead of a generic climbing animation, but overall it doesn't change the game and is a minor return on investment. Center of gravity for a thrown axe doesn't have to be tracked by the animation. Rotates in the air after thrown is enough
The broken: Animation locking should be used after critical points have been passed on some skills, but more importantly nothing should happen if players cancel previous actions. The rise of animation canceling to speed up DPS is just a horrible mechanic. Be it 25% or 500% faster attacks the animation canceling breaks the balance and looks horrible from an animation standpoint. None of them take skill to perform people simply need to learn about them. This is part of the realism debate because warping weapons, to speed up animations is just a silly mechanic.
Disliked Personal Opinion: Mechanically I believe players should need to ready themselves for combat by drawing weapons for that second of animation. Instantly leaping off a horse and equipping a shield and drawing a sword and swinging a huge cleave and instantly backpedaling the second you hit the ground has always looked silly to me.
Kilsin said:Even though Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen is a high fantasy game, are realistic combat animations important to you? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
I think that it is important that combat animations are realistic in the sense that they fit in with the overall game design. I am ok with slightly exaggerated spell effects as long as they are believable and not overly flashy. It is also important for combat animations to be realistic in the sense that they show blocking, dodging, and parrying. I think that realistic combat animations can help cultivate a sense of combat fluidity, and combat fluidity is important for facilitating a decent playing experience.
Realistic combat/spell animations are important to me. I think spell effects should come from my casters weapon(staff etc) that's way more fun for me. Melee weapon skills should be as real as VR can make them within the context of the rest of the world. I'm good with spell animations are down played a bit.
I like smooth, semi-realistic animations like others have mentioned above, but regarding what Jobeson said about animation locking, I'm torn on this issue. I completely agree that animation cancelling for the purposes of increasing DPS is dumb, which is a common mechanic in Elder Scrolls online, and would be only too happy to see it not exist. But I'm not entirely sure I like animation locking at all to be honest. Few things aremore irritating then hitting a skill that has a slightly longer animation, followed immediately by a wide range AE being cast by your enemy that you are then unable to escape from. I feel if animation locking is going to be a thing, then there should at the very least be a way to break it, like a roll-dodge mechanic or something, that doesn't set off the ability timer for the ability you just inturrupted. I'm also really not a fan of how Lost Ark does it, where they put a timer on your roll dodge, I'd prefer it be based off stamina or something.
And I'm not talking about things like casters having to stand still for the duration of a cast timer, that only makes sense. But something like a high-powered backstab ability that has a 2 second animation lock and a 30 second ability cooldown, I want to be able to break the animation with an escape ability and be able to immediately use the ability without the 30 second cooldown being initiated. Cooldowns should be triggered by the completion of the ability.
I do like smooth and well thought out animations though
@Eolair Regarding animation locking, I did mention it should be used only on "some skills" Most skills should be escapable without much impact other than nothing happening. In new world for instance rolling was a move ability one could break out of mid way through in order to not be locked into the move animation. Breaking out of an animation with a roll was not a problem. It made combat feel responsive. Breaking out of the roll animation however allowed players to move faster or attack quicker after using said move ability. Canceling out of a move skill can't just warp you back to the starting point since the move has already mostly happened. Some skills, such as move skills I think should be animation locked. If I were to broaden it, any animation breaking ability needs to be up for strong consiration to lock you into an animation.
As for your preference on the backstab I think different abilities can work in different ways and it makes the game better. It adds to the risk vs reward of the CAs and options are fun. Difficulty to use well can be rewarded with greater damage and it is a great balance.
CA hits 5x after a 1 second charge time. You can cancel out of the CA but the cool down is used.
CA hits 5x after a 1 second charge time. You can cancel out of the CA and the cool down is not used.
CA hits 5x over 1 second doing 1 hit every .2 seconds. You can cancel out of the CA animation and the damage stops at that point. The cool down is used.
CA hits 5x instantly but you have a one second global lockout timer so you can't do other CAs.
If all 4 of those CAs did the exact same damage it would be stupid to ever use the non instant one. The difficulty of potentially losing your cast time and or your CD and doing no damage or being interrupted and doing only partial damage should be rewarded.
Engaging game play is the most important thing to me. As long as the animations communicate clearly what my character is doing, I'm happy. That said, I would prefer animations that are fluid and flow with each other, but are not overly flashy. Hopefully they make logical sense within the context of the high fantasy world and lore of Terminus.
As a healer the only animation I see during combat is that of the HP bars. I see it on the screen, in my sleep, in my daydreams.
I would prefer for there not to be animation cancelling. It's not realistic, but I'm strangely okay with slide casting (being able to move just before a cast is over but the cast actually completes so it's not cancelling).
I think not allowing breaking animation lock for things like roll abilities or other such escape type moves is fair. At least with those you are travelling and not locked to a single position like most attack ability animation locks would be.
As for the ability comparison, I'd agree with your conclusion, if a 1 second cooldown was the only cooldown present and no additional cooldown is present? But what if ability 4 has a 10 second cooldown timer? You wouldn't just sit and wait for the cooldown, you'd be using other abilities as well, with each having their own cooldowns. And personally, I think I would probably take more issue with the idea that an instant damage ability would do the same damage as an ability that has some sort of charge time. I would think a balance of examples 2 and 4, with 2 doing 5x damage and 4 doing 2x damage, would be what to go for, with specific cooldown lengths also being a consideration. Maybe ability 4 has a 5 second cooldown and 2 has a 10 second cooldown. You can break the animation, do no damage, but not set off the timer. I have to think there are enough examples out there from other games to strike a decent balance.