Iksar said:Darch said:I'm not saying that looting individually is "bad", I'm saying "giving no alternative" to a repetitious/tedious/menial/rudimentary task that serves no purpose other than generating a time sink in an attempt to give the illusion of productivity via habitual behavior rewards will turn players away after a period of time (varying from player to player, but an eventual inevitability). If a player enjoys that, giving the option to do so should be up to that player.
I can't say I agree that it is tedious or serves no purpose other than generating a time sink. It's a small part of risk/reward, you can kill things that are far away from you so you need to deal with anything between you and the corpse to loot it (whether that is a chasm or handful of other mobs etc) or if more mobs are still being fought and things are going south it's a consideration to try to quickly loot or not.
On top of that, for me it's always at least a little exciting to loot a corpse. To open that window and see what possible treasures might have dropped, be it normal or a named mob (unless the games itemization sucks and normal mobs just have trash).
I don't see people turning away because they have to click on corpses to loot that corpse vs just pressing a button and opening a window to see all dropped loot within an area. The magic button that shows all loot in an area takes the joy out to me.
You always cherry pick my posts, and pick one specific topic to talk about while excluding or omitting very important parts... in this particular misquote, you missed the point that my 2nd bullet clearly states that I advocate for clicking on the corpse, clicking each individual item and dragging it inot your inventory (as you described) is a time sink. Your entire disagreement is moot, and forcing people to drag and drop items from corpses to your inventory (with no other looting option) would absolutely turn people away. I never mentioned anything about a magic button that shows all loot in an area.
Darch said:My personal preferred loot system would be:
- In group/raid situations, "Master Looter(s)" can be chosen (unlimited number, so a group leader can allow an entire party ML rights if they choose).
- Master looters click on a corpse, all loot available on all nearby corpses is presented in a loot window (categorized by each corpse).
Nothing is more frustrating in a game when there are multiple items stacked on each other and being unable to target the correct thing (i.e. you have a pile of 5 corpses to loot, but you can only click the same one over and over and over is fail).
Darch said:Nothing is more frustrating in a game when there are multiple items stacked on each other and being unable to target the correct thing (i.e. you have a pile of 5 corpses to loot, but you can only click the same one over and over and over is fail).
I know you don't advocate trivialising looting at all, but you keep making comments that make me realise the importance of some of the stuff that might be identified as 'frustrating' ;)
It being difficult to click on individual corpses is, again, kinda an analog for something meaningfully tactical and realistic.
If you don't want to be struggling to pull corpses out from under each other, you will need to either kill in a wider area (greater risk of adds) or loot more often (greater risk of being attacked while unprepared).
Yes, you should perhaps be able to tab-target corpses and /loot to open a dialog rather than clicking, if the clicking is truly a tricky/impossible UI task, but trivialising the impact of the *choice* of a player to kill over and over in the same spot? That is an example of the kind of 'frustration' that should not be simply removed.
I really would love to see VR innovating and making looting treasure the important, meaningful part of play it should be. Yes, needless drudgery shouldn't be kept just for nostalgia's sake, but I think eveyone knows, from the way the MMORPG genre has gone, there is great danger in removing frustration and adding convenience without truly appreciating that the removal/addition has perhaps unrealised impact.
Looted corpses should be visually distinct from unlooted corpses OR looted corpses shouldn't be selectable. This cuts down on needless clicking. Also, looted items that no one wanted should show up as distinct items next to the corpse. This is both a QoL design and an effort to be more realistic. If you loot a corpse, you're basically pulling out items of value and putting them in piles for the group to go through. Realistically, no one goes through the hassle of returning all unclaimed items back to the corpse.
Counterfleche said:Looted corpses should be visually distinct from unlooted corpses OR looted corpses shouldn't be selectable. This cuts down on needless clicking. Also, looted items that no one wanted should show up as distinct items next to the corpse. This is both a QoL design and an effort to be more realistic. If you loot a corpse, you're basically pulling out items of value and putting them in piles for the group to go through. Realistically, no one goes through the hassle of returning all unclaimed items back to the corpse.
Yeah, I like these type of ideas. I really think there are ways to make looting less tricky/painful *and* more meaningful/immersive. This is prime for some VR innovation ;)
Balanz said:Counterfleche said:Looted corpses should be visually distinct from unlooted corpses OR looted corpses shouldn't be selectable.Might not corpses need to be skinned, or otherwise processed for parts?
Maybe that should be a different action since it should (IMO) require a harvesting skill. Rifling through the pockets of a dead bandit doesn't require the same skill that skinning an animal does. Perhaps harvesting should be in the same looting window, but the option to roll on it is grayed out unless you have sufficient skill.
Of course, if harvesting takes time, then maybe the whole group should get to roll on each harvest since they all have to wait for the harvester to finish? Or make it so that each group member gets a portion? Or the harvester gets one and the group rolls on a second one? I'm hoping resources won't be abundant and evenly spread all over, making the above suggestions less needed since players won't be constantly stopping to harvest.
Darch said:Iksar said:I can't say I agree that it is tedious or serves no purpose other than generating a time sink. It's a small part of risk/reward, you can kill things that are far away from you so you need to deal with anything between you and the corpse to loot it (whether that is a chasm or handful of other mobs etc) or if more mobs are still being fought and things are going south it's a consideration to try to quickly loot or not.
On top of that, for me it's always at least a little exciting to loot a corpse. To open that window and see what possible treasures might have dropped, be it normal or a named mob (unless the games itemization sucks and normal mobs just have trash).
I don't see people turning away because they have to click on corpses to loot that corpse vs just pressing a button and opening a window to see all dropped loot within an area. The magic button that shows all loot in an area takes the joy out to me.
You always cherry pick my posts, and pick one specific topic to talk about while excluding or omitting very important parts... in this particular misquote, you missed the point that my 2nd bullet clearly states that I advocate for clicking on the corpse, clicking each individual item and dragging it inot your inventory (as you described) is a time sink. Your entire disagreement is moot, and forcing people to drag and drop items from corpses to your inventory (with no other looting option) would absolutely turn people away. I never mentioned anything about a magic button that shows all loot in an area.
But I didn't advocate for drag and drop. You can right click items in the loot window to send them to your inventory but you do still need to make the decision and click for each of them.
Well you did mention EQ's advanced loot system which I believe does the same (shows all items on corpses near in a window) as well as "Master looters click on a corpse, all loot available on all nearby corpses is presented in a loot window (categorized by each corpse)." So I imagined you were advocating for those.
Counterfleche said: Maybe that should be a different action since it should (IMO) require a harvesting skill. Rifling through the pockets of a dead bandit doesn't require the same skill that skinning an animal does. Perhaps harvesting should be in the same looting window, but the option to roll on it is grayed out unless you have sufficient skill.Of course, if harvesting takes time, then maybe the whole group should get to roll on each harvest since they all have to wait for the harvester to finish? Or make it so that each group member gets a portion? Or the harvester gets one and the group rolls on a second one? I'm hoping resources won't be abundant and evenly spread all over, making the above suggestions less needed since players won't be constantly stopping to harvest.
Skinning is absolutely a Harvesting skill. As a separate game mechanic, it will have its own UI. Also, Nephele has said that a corpse has to be empty of loot before it can be skinned. So skinning can't begin until the loot window has been closed.
While I expect that we won't be able to skin NPCs that are mostly humanoid, I think he was mostly referring to mobs that are more animal or non-human in nature. So far, there's no confirmation of group harvesting planned, though anything could happen. Either way, I don't see groups rolling on Harvested resources.
Solo - Autoloot Coin. Settings Option to Autoloot all items without confirmation by clicking the corpse.
In Groups - Autosplit Coin. Forced NBG Items (only characters who can use it can select need, can't need on downgrades)
In Raids - Autosplit Coin. Auto-Random trash items, Master-Loot Rare items/ gear