I will just say this. I love and completely agree with Pantheon's Tenets. I'm not gonna to set up line-in-the-sand expectations on how they implement those tenets. The less expectations I have regarding those tenets, the better I will be able to deal with the time it takes to develop this game. I find when I give audience to my detailed expectations, the easier it is to be upset when changes are made.
I have spent enough time listening intently to VR over the years to sincerely appreciate their commitment to making a game based on the tenets they stated. My favorite game of all time is WoW. Despite that, I left that game because of the 'type A' meta that Brad talked about in the quote posted.
------Begin Quote------
The reality is there are, in this case, two types of people:
Player Type A: those who want to play a game where they are entitled to experience everything, obtain everything, etc. merely because they pay the fee and put some time in, though it had better be time in allotments and at a frequency that works with the rest of their lives.
Player Type B: And then there are those who want more of a challenge and don’t mind indirect competition and finite resources and realize, that unless they really try hard, they’re not going to achieve everything, or see everything – but they also think that’s fine – in fact, arguably, it makes the world more real – you can’t see every square foot of the real world, after all – and you always need something to dream about, or another goal to head towards.
Stickiness. Retention. By eliminating or severely reducing competition, player advancement accelerates – access to items that help you advance your player are not limited by other players seeking them as well, either legitimately or by griefing. By making items easier to get, human nature dictates that at least a lot (most?) of people will find they value these items less, that their sense of accomplishment and attachment to a virtual character or item is diminished. People tend to value things they had to work for more than things they obtained more easily, or for no real effort.
-------End Quote------
Despite the frustrations that can occur during this long development, I have found exceptionally more genuine reasons to be excited about the state of Pantheon at this present moment.
One example is the HDRP. Even though I value game play above graphics(Thanks to early WoW and the many old RPGs and RTS games I still play), VR has shown that you can have both as your goal and do a decent job at it. Had the game come out years ago(like many have wanted) the graphics would have been dated. While that's not a deal breaker, I'm still focused on the real chance of having my cake and eating it too. I have spent a lot of time watching HDRP videos and the potential of HDRP to deliver an emotionally beautiful world that is comparable to(I don't want to need a 3070 or higher GPU to play) many modern MMOs. I'm basing this off of how the final product can actually look rather than the images currently shown. Although the current images allow me to visualize a more polished product. and get me excited for that finished product.
Having both potentially excellent game play with very decent graphical fidelity is huge plus for me. Let's be clear that is only one example of many as to why I am "Pantheon Patient."
I have no desire to spend time here if this was a project that continually frustates me or that I'm disappointed in. I did that with WoW and my time could be better spent on things that I actually like and brings me some satisfaction. Pantheon does that for me currently, so I'm happy to be here.
I couldn't agree more with you Dikenzu!
Dikenzu said:I will just say this. I love and completely agree with Pantheon's Tenets. I'm not gonna to set up line-in-the-sand expectations on how they implement those tenets. The less expectations I have regarding those tenets, the better I will be able to deal with the time it takes to develop this game. I find when I give audience to my detailed expectations, the easier it is to be upset when changes are made.
I have spent enough time listening intently to VR over the years to sincerely appreciate their commitment to making a game based on the tenets they stated. My favorite game of all time is WoW. Despite that, I left that game because of the 'type A' meta that Brad talked about in the quote posted.
------Begin Quote------
The reality is there are, in this case, two types of people:
Player Type A: those who want to play a game where they are entitled to experience everything, obtain everything, etc. merely because they pay the fee and put some time in, though it had better be time in allotments and at a frequency that works with the rest of their lives.
Player Type B: And then there are those who want more of a challenge and don’t mind indirect competition and finite resources and realize, that unless they really try hard, they’re not going to achieve everything, or see everything – but they also think that’s fine – in fact, arguably, it makes the world more real – you can’t see every square foot of the real world, after all – and you always need something to dream about, or another goal to head towards.
Stickiness. Retention. By eliminating or severely reducing competition, player advancement accelerates – access to items that help you advance your player are not limited by other players seeking them as well, either legitimately or by griefing. By making items easier to get, human nature dictates that at least a lot (most?) of people will find they value these items less, that their sense of accomplishment and attachment to a virtual character or item is diminished. People tend to value things they had to work for more than things they obtained more easily, or for no real effort.
-------End Quote------
Despite the frustrations that can occur during this long development, I have found exceptionally more genuine reasons to be excited about the state of Pantheon at this present moment.
One example is the HDRP. Even though I value game play above graphics(Thanks to early WoW and the many old RPGs and RTS games I still play), VR has shown that you can have both as your goal and do a decent job at it. Had the game come out years ago(like many have wanted) the graphics would have been dated. While that's not a deal breaker, I'm still focused on the real chance of having my cake and eating it too. I have spent a lot of time watching HDRP videos and the potential of HDRP to deliver an emotionally beautiful world that is comparable to(I don't want to need a 3070 or higher GPU to play) many modern MMOs. I'm basing this off of how the final product can actually look rather than the images currently shown. Although the current images allow me to visualize a more polished product. and get me excited for that finished product.
Having both potentially excellent game play with very decent graphical fidelity is huge plus for me. Let's be clear that is only one example of many as to why I am "Pantheon Patient."
I have no desire to spend time here if this was a project that continually frustates me or that I'm disappointed in. I did that with WoW and my time could be better spent on things that I actually like and brings me some satisfaction. Pantheon does that for me currently, so I'm happy to be here.
Glad to hear like-minded people talk real $#!+ from time time >:) Much respect, bro <3
I'm not here because of the graphics or the challenge and for sure I won't experience everything. I'm here because of the teamplay.
Once, a colleague prodly told me he reached top tier in an MMORPG all alone and I'm asking myself: Why are you playing an MMORPG solo?
In the early 90's my friends and I were setting up a BNC network, installed the IPX drivers on our DOS PCs and played Doom 2 as multiplayer. In these days I played the LAN games with my friends because I enjoyed the games. Since the last 10 or 15 years I realized that it are not the games anymore which I like on LAN parties, it is the companionship of my friends that I like. We meanwhile live in different places but to talk with them and hear what has changed in their lives or is new makes even more fun than the games we play.
For me it is the promise of the teamplay to be here, fight together, win together, die together... that's why I am "Pantheon Patient".
I'm here because I heard about Brad's involvement and I loved classic Everquest. A simple but huge shiny hook I was glad to bite!
I was quickly even more enthusiastic when I was aware of the tenets and The Vision and it was clear they were immutable and pivotal to VR.
I was certain Pantheon would be my MMORPG prayers answered when reading further about commitment to a good level of challenge, group-focused and co-op PvE-focused content, all of which had been declining in modern games.
That was enough for me to pledge about $250 back then, I think it was. With the way MMORPGs had gone over the previous years, it felt almost like a worthy charitable donation to get the genre I love back on track! Hehe. Was more than happy to do my bit and be involved to some degree.
Since then, though obviously Brad's passing was a huge shock and blow, I've heard nothing but enthusiasm, passion and determination from VR. Whenever I hear from any of VR, especially Joppa, Justin, Kyle and Jared (though it is apparent from all) you realise how dedicated and capable they are and I'm so pleased to be involved even in a small way.
I can't remember when I upped my pledge to $1000, but I was happy to do it. You could easily spend more on a holiday, these days, and I've had more fun and satisfaction than a week in the sun would give me and the pledge is the gift that keeps giving hehe.
I know I maybe sound optimistic, but I truly believe anyone really following Pantheon and VR couldn't be anything but. I understand where those being negative are coming from, but any pessimism is mis-judged and cynical, in my not-so-humble opinion. There's just no rational reason for it. Everything we see and hear should lead people to be anything but negative, not to mention the self-defeating, pointlessness of being a backer to a crowd-funded project and being negative about it hehe. Anyway, enough said.
So, well said Dikenzu. See you in Terminus.
Time for me to be contrarian. Again.
It is no secret that my reasons for supporting the game are very different from those of most other supporters.
I can and will group - but I can also be quite happy in a game that focuses on solo play and leaves players to group or not group as they choose. The focus on grouping in Pantheon is a negative to me not a positive since I do not expect there to be enough things to do on days when I do not want to group or do not have the uninterrupted time to do so. But I knew the game's focus long before I pledged, I accept the game's focus, and I try very hard whenever I encourage VR to throw in more soloable content to emphasize that it should be slower and less rewarding than group content because this is a group-focused game.
Why do those like me far prefer MMOs to single player games even when we do not group. Short answer - talking to other players, joining and supporting guilds, crafting and selling to and buying from other players - a MMO has many social aspects other than grouping to kill things and I far prefer games that have those social aspects. I also value the opportunity to group but the key word here is opportunity. Forced grouping is a whole other story and when other MMOs like EQ2 flirted with it the experiment almost killed them.
To me the draw of Pantheon is slow leveling, slow travel, more challenge, real death penalty and the like. Plus the hope of a large and complex world with a lot of races, classes and things to explore. All of which I still hope to see one day.
Only an ...overly optimisitic person .... or the owner of VR ..... should expect the game to have everything he or she wants and nothing he or she does not want. I remain confident that the game will be far better than other MMOs out there . I remain confident that it will have far more that I like than that I do not like. This is more than sufficient for me to still be here trying to support and encourage.
dorotea said:Time for me to be contrarian. Again.
It is no secret that my reasons for supporting the game are very different from those of most other supporters.
I can and will group - but I can also be quite happy in a game that focuses on solo play and leaves players to group or not group as they choose. The focus on grouping in Pantheon is a negative to me not a positive since I do not expect there to be enough things to do on days when I do not want to group or do not have the uninterrupted time to do so. But I knew the game's focus long before I pledged, I accept the game's focus, and I try very hard whenever I encourage VR to throw in more soloable content to emphasize that it should be slower and less rewarding than group content because this is a group-focused game.
Why do those like me far prefer MMOs to single player games even when we do not group. Short answer - talking to other players, joining and supporting guilds, crafting and selling to and buying from other players - a MMO has many social aspects other than grouping to kill things and I far prefer games that have those social aspects. I also value the opportunity to group but the key word here is opportunity. Forced grouping is a whole other story and when other MMOs like EQ2 flirted with it the experiment almost killed them.
To me the draw of Pantheon is slow leveling, slow travel, more challenge, real death penalty and the like. Plus the hope of a large and complex world with a lot of races, classes and things to explore. All of which I still hope to see one day.
Only an ...overly optimisitic person .... or the owner of VR ..... should expect the game to have everything he or she wants and nothing he or she does not want. I remain confident that the game will be far better than other MMOs out there . I remain confident that it will have far more that I like than that I do not like. This is more than sufficient for me to still be here trying to support and encourage.
Most of my time in MMOs were spent soloing, so I'm intensely familair with the playstyle. However, I see the solo mindset in a macro sense rather than from my personal one. Catering to solo players with exclusive solo content like they have group content will bring folks who can appreciate both, but also a great many others who will use that as reason to demand more. More solo content, more QoL, more complaints to appeal to the millions of folks who only play solo and care very little for anyone else other than them and their friends. The proof is every MMO out there that does that. Which is part of my point. Part of the reason I choose Pantheon over those many other solo catering MMOS. I see it as a plague and I will, admittedly being bias and admittedly applying a well substantiated 'slippery slope' point of view, fight against adding structered solo content.
WoW forums and daily chat was innundated with demand after demands after demands after demands after demands...the redundancy of my words pales in comparison to what actually took place. It was never ending. You give in to one request for more solo content, then you open the floodgates. I doubt anyone can show me a game that catered to that and it didn't change that game drastically. You can never satisfy individuals because they want a game that caters to them and not a world to explore or community to be a part of. They usually want to be THE center of attention. I was never affected by it, but it became the meta and was allowed to grow and morph and consume MMOS into something different. I have yet to find a game or company that actively attempts to bring balance to those two points of view. Most companies and players take the path of least resistance and profitability and care lettle about the balance.
I have faith that enough players that will appreciate this game to make it profittable for VR to be successful in whatever way their business plan defines that. Even many solo players will come around to appreciating the game if the community is welcoming and fosters the communal vibe most of us are proselytizing. I believe there will be very, very large influx of new players joining to experience this new MMO and a lot of them will leave, but enough will appreciate the innovation and gameplay and stay.
On the many days that I feel like soloing, I will engage in the things VR has already said will be implemented. That and the fact that I can slowly advance in Terminus like you are saying as is. That is still an option even if they add nothing new to the soloing thing. Harvesting and gathering, grinding for experience, seeing other single players or smaller groups in the world that need help, being scared and excited in exploring dangerous areas on my own and seeing how far I can get and many other things I used to do in other MMOS. I'm resourceful when playing alone and I know I will be able to carve out many solo-like activities to engage in in Terminus.
All without asking for more solo content. I have done all my MMOS like this, so I know it can be done.
But, my very, very strong support of Pantheon comes from knowing that to enjoy this world and all it's wonderful tenets, I have to strongly support that group and communal aspect. The early days of WoW supporting that group aspect, community and such were my absolute best MMOS experiences. When folks pushed for a more solo meta and Blizzard actively supported that solo meta, it was a slow decline into the nonsense that drove me away. So, I can't support asking for more solo content. I'm actively conditioning myself to become more group oriented. I already have the community part down. i like grouping with like minded folks. I like being helpful to others and will usually be on the lookout to help others when I'm not grouping or enjoying my solo moments. I see the trajectory of how this will work for me and get genuinely excited for all of it.
We've had this to-and-fro before and, while I understand Dorotea's position, respectfully; I too hope VR only ever look at soloable content as the unintended side effect of having a range of level and skill appropriate content for groups (and no auto-scaling).
(@dorotea I don't think you're being contrary and I respect your opinion and desires. You show a very reasonable understanding of the situation (and always do in these forums, I think). I don't disagree with what you're saying, really, and there will no doubt be aspects of Pantheon that I would prefer be otherwise too, *but* when it comes to the fundamental tenets and vision, I think there shouldn't be much compromise and it will perhaps always 'hit a nerve' with some and get somewhat 'combative' reactions, if you suggest it could be otherwise, hehe. "Solo content?!?! Heresy! Burn the witch!" hehe)
A well-balanced, full group should find the great majority of the game a challenge.
An oddly configured and/or smaller group should have to be more skilled or better equipped than average or have to aim at lower level (less rewarding) content.
A solo player? Well, the difference between a well balanced full group and a solo character is so large that to cater for solo would mean to make content that is trivially boring to an average group, never mind a good one. I think that is a reasonable observational 'truth' from the last 20 years of the genre.
I am not saying there should not be soloable MMORPGs. There are. Many. I have even enjoyed them over the years. I've had to, to some extent, but I have, and, yes, the aspectes of being an MMO does make it better than a solo RPG.
I am saying, though, there should definitely also be challenging group-focused MMORPGs. (I am also saying that "MMORPG" as a genre makes much more sense for groups, but that is almost beside the point.)
The point is, there has not been an MMORPG that is focused on group content for a long long time and a lot of people, like me, are desparate for one.
In general, games can't be all things to all people, even within a sub-genre. Recent versions in the Battlefield franchise have upset fans more and more as they attempt to fold in concepts like Battle Royale and Hero Shooter into a successful and popular team strategic FPS. But they are both FPS/shooter games? Surely they can have both aspects? Well, no. Hero Shooter and Battle Royale are very different to strategic team FPSs. If EA wanted to grab some of the Hero Shooter or Battle Royale fad money pie, they should have made a specific, new game, not bend the genre of a popular franchise game, ruining it in the process. Fans of the franchise for 15 years, like me, have basically given up on it, because it is no longer the game they enjoy. Even more crazy is, in fact, they *did* make a separate Battle Royale Hero Shooter FPS and it *was* successful, but they *still* chose to warp BF toward the same thing and ended up with a product inferior to both the Battle Royale game *and* previous Battlefield games.
Maybe they'll make the next The Sims or FIFA have a Battle Royale emphasis... People like BR right?... *sigh*
*steps down from soapbox*
Pantheon is new with no loyal franchise fans to please, but, I pledged to Pantheon because it made group-focus such a solid priority intentionally because it has been diluted and de-emphasised in the genre for so long.
I don't think it will be a problem, though. I firmly believe people that like to solo will be able to solo a good amount in Pantheon and will find grouping more than bearable to get to the non-solo-friendly bits.
I agree with Dikenzu and disposalist, the point that I would add is to refer to one of VR's stated goals of brining "Comradery" back to MMO. It is sort of hard (or at least unhealthy) to have the "Comradery" experience solo... ;-) Unless you are like Stallone in "Spy Kids 3-D: Game Over" where he argues with himself, which may be a little unstable if not unhealthy ;-)
im here because I'm looking for something thats old school MMO like EverQuest, Final fantasy 11, and old WoW. I saw Pantheon on YouTube years ago and wanted to check it out. I heard Pantheon going for a niech crowd and I was sold and pledged.
Waiting and will continue to wait.
I'd say it important to note that (IIRC) that is a quote from Brad in 2005. I'd have loved to hear his thoughts in the modern era, alas.
By making items easier to get, human nature dictates that at least a lot (most?) of people will find they value these items less, that their sense of accomplishment and attachment to a virtual character or item is diminished. People tend to value things they had to work for more than things they obtained more easily, or for no real effort.
Doesn't mean things can't still be accessible to people with more limited time provided they still put in the work/time and have the skills to pull whatever off. Competition/player gating does not need to be a core part of the equation or primary blocked of player advancement, it can be a thing but doesn't have to be for things to still end up rare/hard to get etc.
I am here because i am looking for ... a sort of WoW classic/vanilla. I loved to explore the immersive world, doing nice quests and fighting harder raid bosses. And not one big thing was possible without community interaction. I played it for 7 years (2 years vanilla, 3 years on a private server and then again 2 years in the classic version xD). It is so sad what Blizzard has made with this game. :(
I hope, that those things i loved in WoW vanilla are possible in Pantheon. :)
Cheers
I am looking for friendship, fun, exploring, adventure and challenge. I want to go everywhere, although I'll never be the first to get anywhere. The most fun i had in EQ was when I found a friend to group with consistently. We used EQ as a long distance chat service. I met a friend that lived in Egypt! Egypt! What a blast. Terminus looks like it will have everything I'm looking for in a world to live in.