Renathras said:If a team of 50 Warriors wants to form a phalanx to fight a mountain giant, why not? Hold your shields high and firm, fellows! If a game gives a player the option to play as a stealthy Rogue, why does it make them break stealth to open a chest quietly? You can pick someone's pocket without making them aware but opening a box in a corner reveals yourself to everyone in a 50 foot radius?
I agree with this sentiment, it makes the game world much more immersive. Actually this reminds me of a game back in the days called Heroe's Quest 3, where in order to perform an action you would actually type it in and then and only then your character will perform. For instance if you stood below Baba Yaga's hut, to get inside you can't click on the door, you would need to type out: "Try and climb the steps."
Kilsin said: ... That's not really how that works mate. Maybe for a solo or very small team but for any company with proper structure, morals and values, there are goals, deadlines, targets that all need to be hit, meetings to hold departments and staff accountable etc. when working with peoples money, the law holds you accountable. ...
IMO:
Pantheon has missed every public date it has ever set for any significant milestone from 2014 to 2020. Every single one. Even the annual vague indications of "we would like to see alpha this year" have never been met. I would extend that to 2021, but I know the brigade would say "They met their 4 hour testing window schedule for the year, you can't say that!".
Plus, it's not "peoples money", it's donations. You can do whatever the hell you want with donations, because you're a for-profit company. You're not a charity, even they are governed by rules with donations. People have given you free money for 8 years. You have no obligation of any kind to produce any product or service, EVER. It's in the Terms of Service, right here.
" ... VR offers no guarantees or warranties of performance, service, Pantheon Rise of the Fallen (“PRotF”) completion or delivery of Pledge Package items. ... "
" ... For any number of reasons, VR may not be able to complete PRotF, offer access to the game, or may not be able to deliver some or all items listed in the Pledge Packages. ... "
" ... VR reserves the right to suspend, change, or cease the service (including, but not limited to, the availability of any support, item, function, feature, database, or Content) at any time for any reason or no reason ..."
" ... VR does not offer refunds under any circumstances including but not limited to cases when it is unable to deliver all of part of a PRotF or a Pledge Package.
Terms are subject to change at any time without notice. ... "
You have gone to great lengths to ensure you are not accountable, in any way, to anyone. And further, that no-one has any legal recourse of any kind.
Why would you pretend or claim otherwise? Your Terms of Service state the opposite, and the past 8 years is evidence entirely to the contrary of your claim, Kilsin.
Spirit of the Law vs Letter of the law
For the discerning (the letter) jdm14605.pdf (upenn.edu)
For the concerning (the spirit) Caught in Providence: Car Clock - YouTube
Manouk said:For the concerning (the spirit) Caught in Providence: Car Clock - YouTube
I really enjoyed the Car Clock video. Thanks for shareing.
If I could change one thing.. Hmmm. I dont know what I would change really. Live happens mistakes get made.
BladeDancer said:Manouk said:For the concerning (the spirit) Caught in Providence: Car Clock - YouTube
I really enjoyed the Car Clock video. Thanks for shareing.
If I could change one thing.. Hmmm. I dont know what I would change really. Live happens mistakes get made.
"10 o'clock is 10 o'clock, Judge. " XD
vjek said:Kilsin said: ... That's not really how that works mate. Maybe for a solo or very small team but for any company with proper structure, morals and values, there are goals, deadlines, targets that all need to be hit, meetings to hold departments and staff accountable etc. when working with peoples money, the law holds you accountable. ...IMO:
Pantheon has missed every public date it has ever set for any significant milestone from 2014 to 2020. Every single one. Even the annual vague indications of "we would like to see alpha this year" have never been met. I would extend that to 2021, but I know the brigade would say "They met their 4 hour testing window schedule for the year, you can't say that!".
Plus, it's not "peoples money", it's donations. You can do whatever the hell you want with donations, because you're a for-profit company. You're not a charity, even they are governed by rules with donations. People have given you free money for 8 years. You have no obligation of any kind to produce any product or service, EVER. It's in the Terms of Service, right here.
" ... VR offers no guarantees or warranties of performance, service, Pantheon Rise of the Fallen (“PRotF”) completion or delivery of Pledge Package items. ... "
" ... For any number of reasons, VR may not be able to complete PRotF, offer access to the game, or may not be able to deliver some or all items listed in the Pledge Packages. ... "
" ... VR reserves the right to suspend, change, or cease the service (including, but not limited to, the availability of any support, item, function, feature, database, or Content) at any time for any reason or no reason ..."
" ... VR does not offer refunds under any circumstances including but not limited to cases when it is unable to deliver all of part of a PRotF or a Pledge Package.
Terms are subject to change at any time without notice. ... "You have gone to great lengths to ensure you are not accountable, in any way, to anyone. And further, that no-one has any legal recourse of any kind.
Why would you pretend or claim otherwise? Your Terms of Service state the opposite, and the past 8 years is evidence entirely to the contrary of your claim, Kilsin.
1. We have never set a hard date, we have always given rough estimates for when we expected to be releasing something, we have been transparent with our game wipes and resets but people still try to hold us accountable and lock us into these rough estimates, for this exact reason we won't give anymore until we know we can lock a date in, be close to it and know we can make it.
2. You're purchasing a digital product when you purchase a pledge. The law governs this.
3. Every company on the planet has a basic ToS that cover themselves and it has been developed from people (customers) finding loopholes, therefore a lengthy all-encompassing ToS is needed to protect from this.
With respect, you have no idea what you're talking about mate, everything you proclaimed is just not true, you're just trying to find ways to attack us and smear our name and it's getting a bit old, I am not going to be as lenient on your next post if you derail something to argue over non-issues with your jaded opinion anymore, so please take this as a friendly warning.
Let's get this back on topic please or I will have to start removing posts to enforce the guidelines.
Going for 3:
1) Need to button spam to make any class work - goodbye tactical impactful abilities (and any chance to socialise) , hello RSI
2) Super duper cosmetics for all! If someone looks like a winged gairish burning clown, they should have earnt it!
3) Gearscore and exact stats for all. Let me at least have a chance to cause a Total Party Kill before I am kicked froma group.
My list on this topic is long, but the big 2 that come to mind foremost are microtransactions and the wow-style "group finder" tools.
Microtransactions turn the game into one made and developed to promote more micro transactions and also detract from putting in effort to achieve things without paying for them.
The "LFG" tool takes away any aspect of community and randomly puts you in a pre made group across servers and shards with people you will never see again, and couldn't even see again if you wanted to generally. While it's a great thing if you are super causal and only have 1 hour to play per day a couple times a week, I would argue that it kills the joy you get for those few hours. With LFG tools like I mentioned there really isn't a point to playing "MMO" versus playing a single player game.
A game without the LFG finder may not be for every casual player out there, but not every game can be for every person, and I know VR knows this and has built Pantheon based off of this principle.
(Resisting the urge to comment on some posts as they have already been dealt with admirably)...
I would change having to kill everything to progress and prosper. I would love to see meaningful quests without the need to slaughter every orc I encounter. For instance, I loved the quest in EQ2's Great Divide where you had to train and feed a pet before it becomes a mount. Yes, there was killing in the quest line, but it was to feed the little critter, not for the sole purpose of pilfering a belt or two.
DONT GET ME WRONG! Fighting is what Pantheon is about, I just think there could be other stuff (apart from crafting) that doesn't have to be slaughter based.
chenzeme said:I would change having to kill everything to progress and prosper.
DONT GET ME WRONG! Fighting is what Pantheon is about, I just think there could be other stuff (apart from crafting) that doesn't have to be slaughter based.
I agree with this. In fact, I'd like it if there were some creatures in the world, who are friendly and don't appear to be anything one need worry about killing. But if you get enough negative faction from them, you start having problems everywhere you go. And it's not obvious why, so you have to do some serious exploring to find out. Maybe get a high level Keeper to help figure it out. THEN you have to find some way to gain back faction standing with them.
Conversely, if you chose to build faction with them then at some point they become much more 'rewarding' to interact with. Not necessarily with gold, it could be any type of benefit.
Kilsin said:1. We have never set a hard date, we have always given rough estimates for when we expected to be releasing something, we have been transparent with our game wipes and resets but people still try to hold us accountable and lock us into these rough estimates, for this exact reason we won't give anymore until we know we can lock a date in, be close to it and know we can make it.
2. You're purchasing a digital product when you purchase a pledge. The law governs this.
3. Every company on the planet has a basic ToS that cover themselves and it has been developed from people (customers) finding loopholes, therefore a lengthy all-encompassing ToS is needed to protect from this.
I would choose the removal of microtransactions (and indirectly "subscription free" MMOs).
The desire for more and more money over quality is ultimately what cheapens a game's quality (IMO).
Mod Edit: Removed continued off-topic discussion that was stopped in a previous post.
snocap said:The "LFG" tool takes away any aspect of community and randomly puts you in a pre made group across servers and shards with people you will never see again, and couldn't even see again if you wanted to generally. While it's a great thing if you are super causal and only have 1 hour to play per day a couple times a week, I would argue that it kills the joy you get for those few hours. With LFG tools like I mentioned there really isn't a point to playing "MMO" versus playing a single player game.
A game without the LFG finder may not be for every casual player out there, but not every game can be for every person, and I know VR knows this and has built Pantheon based off of this principle.
I think I know what you are saying, but lets not confuse "LFG tool" with "Dungeon Finder" (software that creates a group and teleports the entire group to a dungeon to kill things and then never speak again).
Even EQ1 implemented a LFG tool once they figured out how; You can't really have an MMO without the ability to look for a "Massive" amount of "Multiple" players "Online". Without LFG, you have restricted access to the community without using a 3rd party application (web browser for forums, Discord, ect.) which is an awful alternative (because you again split your populatoin up between the use of different applications). Typing in chat will only allow you to communicate to a limited number of people (to a handful of people that happen to read scrolling text and simultaneously also LFG at that very second) - effectively negating the "MM" from MMO. That is only advantageous to people who like to read everyone else's chat - which some of us play an MMO to be immersed into a world void of nonsensical chatter, and look at the surroundings as though we are really there... and not having to tab out to scroll through forums or reply to Discord pings, but instead get a message from another player saying "hey, we see you are in the LFG tool and our group can really use a hand. Are you still LFG?"
Add: EQ's LFG tool was kind of perfect. If you were looking for a group member replacement, you could select which role you are looking for by a level range and hit search, then every player of that role within the level range that had their /LFG tag on populated in the list... alternatively, you could add a note stating which areas you preferred to group at (or in the case of PRotF - areas you are or aren't acclimated to).
Kilsin said:Community Opinion - If you could change one thing about modern MMORPGs, what would it be and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
The targeting of the 'mass market' by their developers.
That has lead to: -
The dumbing down effect (if it's easy, everyone can 'enjoy' it!)
The excessive bells and whistles effect (if it has *everything* then *everyone* will love it!)
The homogenisation effect (must make it so everyone can do everything equally well so everyone will love it!)
The over-accessibility effect (mustn't exclude *any* playstyle even if other game genres already do it better!)
And lots of other detrimental effects, both in production standards and to the games themselves.
A big factor leading me to be a backer in Pantheon was the clear intention to target a particular playstyle in order to make the best game it can.
Always feel I have to add this disclaimer: Targeting a particular playstyle does not mean it will be a niche game with a niche audience. I think there will definitely be a core audience that will be very happy, but good is good and Pantheon will be good such that *anyone* can enjoy it even though its vision is quite particular.
Players like me will be extremely happy, but Pantheon will be able to achieve a 'mass market' simply by being a great game and not by aiming for that 'mass' and attempting to satisfy everyone.
I remember when companies, in all areas, not just game developers, used to design and produce a product because they thought it was good and they had expertease and experience in that area. They would make good products and have happy, loyal customers.
It seems now most companies are lead by marketing and balance sheets alone, including game studios. There are some disappointing customer trends that mean they are often successful...
Gintoki88 said:On the same point of mass marketing is the censorship of everything today.
I'm not asking for a AO rated game but it getting kinda silly how far companies are going recently to be as in offensive to everyone as they can be.
Agreed yup. It's another one of those 'lowest common denominators' that is often encorporated when aiming for the mass market.
Why would you want something to be gritty and seriously awesome when it could be a twee and brightly coloured child-friendly product that hits the under-10s sales demographic too!
Double the sales figures but quarter the retention of the mature audience? Fine. Corporations love short-term balance sheet bulges!
And audiences have apparently gotten used to it and keep lapping it up...
... Oh no ... I've gotten my soapbox out!
More investment: of yourself, of time.
You should still make progress in a short play session but the overall progress should be nice and slow.
Some amount of socialization should be required in order to group or at least to make grouping easier. Grouping should be required to achieve anything significant.
An increased scale of time adds a shift of expectations from shorter to longer-term planning. You have more 'latency' between objectives. More dependency on yourself to plot the optimal way forward and on others to help you. The most confident trailblazers should feel humbled by the greatness of the journey at times.
A truly immersive world goes hand in hand with this type of thinking. Even while high fidelity gaphics are key for most, lower end graphics don't necessarily take away from immersion, as far as they don't interfere with your ablility to invest yourself in the game, because they require more use of imagination in order to fill in the gaps.
Kilsin said:Community Opinion - If you could change one thing about modern MMORPGs, what would it be and why?
Complexity
P2W game dynamics, to me, are a complete disaster. I would prefer the opposite approach. I'd like building a character to be long and tedious but ultimately rewarding. Also would want to continue to stregnthen the toon at endgame. EQ's AA tree comes to mind. Something that doesn't unlock until max level and/or some achievements are finished.
The goal would be to have a recognizable character with provenance. A toon that can't be rivaled by an alt that someone power leveled and geared up in 2 weeks. Make players work their way up so they at least know how to play the toon.