Feeding off of what Therek said in the recent Pantheon Plus video and what I have been thinking about for awhile now. I'm trying out different games while being 'Pantheon Patient'. What I have found is that I'm not committed to those games like I want to be. I find myself intentionally not getting too involved in the lore, joining guilds or groups and a host of other things I did when playing WoW. My time feels more important to me and and I'm not interested in spreading myself too thin with a lot of games like I did in the past, so I'm just doing drive-bys on the games I play now.
Hence my strong interest in Pantheon.
I haven't been this invested in a game for many years now. I was heavily invested in WoW and Rift. I would spend time on the forums, print out info from sites and take them to work to read or read as I was walking to work. I was also heavily invested in the many RTS/MMOS games I played when the internet was young. Total Annihilation: Kingdoms, Supreme Commander, Diablo, StarCraft and many others. When I logged into those games they were my place of escapism and solace. It felt like a place to call Home. That's what Pantheon feels like to me now. A place to call Home. I have a very creative and active mind and I have a thousand and one scenarios in my mind of what I will be doing in game. I have other hobbies and interests which are equally as fulfilling, but as far as games go, Pantheon is number one with a bullet right now.
Anyhoo, just sharing some thoughts on how I see this game and welcome thoughts on how others see Pantheon.
Will this be your Home?
I share a lot of the same sentiments. I also got heavily involved in the lore of WoW. I have read multiple books and cared about the characters. I had fun in quite a few MMO's, but the lore usually didn't grab me; WoW was different in that aspect, and I'm starting to feel the pull with Pantheon. I like that the world page with its lore sections is featured on the website, which tells me that the team takes the lore seriously and sees it as integral to the Pantheon expierience. I usually look forward to the Pantheon Plus lore segment each week as well. I just hope Mr Gerhart doesn't run out of ideas too soon. Also, maybe in a few years he'll have a Pantheon novel for us to read.
I'm with you there 100%. This specific subject I spend a lot of time thinking and having Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen be a new MMORPG has such a feel of heavy Lore based MMORPG makes me so eager to finding out a lot about this game which I'm already highly anticipating because I feel this game will have me hooked... and I haven't even played it yet.
I remember the days logging in to a game after a day of work and just immersing myself in the world for a few hours (or 6 or 7 hours somtimes!). That was possible because when I was in that world it felt like I belonged there. I was comitted to it, and it was comitted to me. It sounds strange to say that, but I think it's true. The community was there, and I was part of it. It's not important that *everyone* knows me, but when I log in and someone sends a "Hey, how's it goin?!" or "Was hoping you'd log in, come check this place out with me!" that goes a long way in making me feel like I am part of the world that was created for us all to enjoy.
Looking forward to at least some of that feeling again. It'll probably come down to whether it feels like a game we play vs a community within a fantasy world.
Many of us are right there with you, brother. I went all in on EQ and WoW, and now I'm looking forward to doing the same with Pantheon. I'm saving much of the lore to dive into a launch draws closer, so that it is all fresh in my head and ready to fully immerse myself into. I look forward to adventuring with you all, and creating lasting memories that gamers outside of the MMO sphere have never truly understood or experienced. The game is nothing without the community, which is why WoW is a shadow of its former self. The old community died and what replaced it wasn't really a community at all, but instead a bunch of individuals playing solo in a world populated with other solo players, each doomed to eternally hit the "join group" button as it popped up in order to grind anonymously through another cookie-cutter dungeon. This time we are taking our community back, we are taking our morals and our love for our fellow player back, we are taking back this genre that we once coveted and protected.
You are not alone, and together we will find a new game to call home again.
Grogoo said:I share a lot of the same sentiments. I also got heavily involved in the lore of WoW. I have read multiple books and cared about the characters. I had fun in quite a few MMO's, but the lore usually didn't grab me; WoW was different in that aspect, and I'm starting to feel the pull with Pantheon. I like that the world page with its lore sections is featured on the website, which tells me that the team takes the lore seriously and sees it as integral to the Pantheon expierience. I usually look forward to the Pantheon Plus lore segment each week as well. I just hope Mr Gerhart doesn't run out of ideas too soon. Also, maybe in a few years he'll have a Pantheon novel for us to read.
I read a lot of fantasy novels like WoW and Warhammer would happily make room a Pantheon one.
snocap said:Many of us are right there with you, brother. I went all in on EQ and WoW, and now I'm looking forward to doing the same with Pantheon. I'm saving much of the lore to dive into a launch draws closer, so that it is all fresh in my head and ready to fully immerse myself into. I look forward to adventuring with you all, and creating lasting memories that gamers outside of the MMO sphere have never truly understood or experienced. The game is nothing without the community, which is why WoW is a shadow of its former self. The old community died and what replaced it wasn't really a community at all, but instead a bunch of individuals playing solo in a world populated with other solo players, each doomed to eternally hit the "join group" button as it popped up in order to grind anonymously through another cookie-cutter dungeon. This time we are taking our community back, we are taking our morals and our love for our fellow player back, we are taking back this genre that we once coveted and protected.
You are not alone, and together we will find a new game to call home again.
I agree with everything you said here. That solo priority just going through the motions devouring content without any sense of community rush that dominates WoW and so many other games is disheartening. I'm looking forward to bringing some of the magic back or at least have fun trying.
I am currently taking my partner through EQ2 as she has never played an MMO (she has played D&D and other paper-based games back in the day), but not digitally. We are playing together so she can gain experience of such games before PRotF opens to Alpha and she doesn't yet feel comfortable with strangers (yet).
Anyway, I dont agree that solo play is just going through the motions. I play in raids, full groups, small groups and solo since EQ1. I love to play solo when I want down time from Guild Officer duties or just want to look around. I get fun from all styles of play; it's just different. I also find myself taking more time when I am soloing, too. I tend to read more lore because groups want to press on and things are missed. I take more time exploring and checking things out by myself as groups tend to have a plan in mind and a set route.
I think all styles of play have their place. There will always be those that think the end game is where it is at, but us in the know, will take our time regardless of how we are playing and enjoy everything there is to discover on the way. I plan to solo, duo, group, and raid (probably in that order) and I don't think solo play is necessarily unwanted or a bad way to play.
chenzeme said:Anyway, I dont agree that solo play is just going through the motions. I play in raids, full groups, small groups and solo since EQ1. I love to play solo when I want down time from Guild Officer duties or just want to look around. I get fun from all styles of play; it's just different. I also find myself taking more time when I am soloing, too. I tend to read more lore because groups want to press on and things are missed. I take more time exploring and checking things out by myself as groups tend to have a plan in mind and a set route.
I agree, and I realize that my previous post might have seemed like I was downplaying solo play in favor of "everything must be grouped!" play. On the contrary, I love solo play, especially in EQ1 where you had to really be good at your class and use your noggin to accomplish it properly. I solo'd my druid practically from 20-60, with minimal grouping. I still made lots of friends though, because of the way the game helps build relartionships (buffs, LF port, has anyone seen my corpse?, anyone want to kill a named?, etc.)
What I more meant was that when you DO group, as we all do from time to time in MMOs even if you like prefer to solo, you don't actually interact with anyone... you more just click "find group" then "join group" then spam your rotation without saying a word until the dungeon is over. At least, that's how it is in WoW.
So what I meant was that the game should be a more rewarding grouping experience when you do choose to group, and (even when you are playing solo) the game should encourage community building and relationship forming, which is something lacking in WoW and other MMOs today.
chenzeme said:I am currently taking my partner through EQ2 as she has never played an MMO (she has played D&D and other paper-based games back in the day), but not digitally. We are playing together so she can gain experience of such games before PRotF opens to Alpha and she doesn't yet feel comfortable with strangers (yet).
Anyway, I dont agree that solo play is just going through the motions. I play in raids, full groups, small groups and solo since EQ1. I love to play solo when I want down time from Guild Officer duties or just want to look around. I get fun from all styles of play; it's just different. I also find myself taking more time when I am soloing, too. I tend to read more lore because groups want to press on and things are missed. I take more time exploring and checking things out by myself as groups tend to have a plan in mind and a set route.
I think all styles of play have their place. There will always be those that think the end game is where it is at, but us in the know, will take our time regardless of how we are playing and enjoy everything there is to discover on the way. I plan to solo, duo, group, and raid (probably in that order) and I don't think solo play is necessarily unwanted or a bad way to play.
My point was not about one aspect of what I said. You have to speak on the entirty. It was a long run on sentence of a type of person, not just a solo person. I played solo in MMOS as well, but that, alone, is not what I wrote. I'm speaking on the current mindset of modern MMOS that care little for group/social/community gameplay. Their only priority is solo gameplay designed for optimizing, having their QoL gameplay and action combat mowing down mobs and time not being 'respected' by the very things VR has made the tenets of Pantheon. One such person said as much in a Cohh Pantheon stream after hearing Joppa talk and I have heard many others voiced their displeasure with Pantheon's gameplay.
Also, what I mean by going through the motions is only using optimal builds and all the other metas that folks do instead of just having fun adventuring and engaging in a world. To those folks there is only one way to play if you want to be a valuable player, not multiple. I just read quotes stating that in a comment section earlier and far too many times on WoW Forums.
Dikenzu, I am sorry you feel I was speaking unfairly, but all I was doing was enforcing that solo play should be considered important in Pantheon. I may have mis-understood the intention of your point, but I certainly don't agree that I have to "speak on the entirety" of your post at all. I was just saying that solo play is important, and I was not specifically ignoring your points or trying to mis-represent you in any way.
But for clarity; I agree that current games are all about the individual. I too dont want a game where every mob is just cannon fodder. I want substance. I want to play the game in groups and solo and would hate to have Pantheon become another "cookie build follow the heard" type game, and I have every belief that it won't. I want a game that caters to both styles of play. Of course, the social side of Pantheon is important, the most important one could argue, but solo play needs to be there and in good order for when we just want some exploration and me time.
It's a fine line to walk. I think anyone here is interesting in a focus on group content. Pretty sure most would want to be able to solo only in certain situations.
The problem is that any 'focus' on soloing is almost by it's nature a loss of focus from grouping.
I don't think soloing should be considered 'important' at all.
I think even EQ had it slightly wrong in this regard. It was good, but perhaps too much of the world was soloable or even easier to solo than to group in (or at least more profitable by XP/loot gain rate). You would find soloers monopolising content that groups could have enjoyed and people who just soloed when others couldn't get a group together there, which is an odd thing for a social, co-op, multiplayer game.
If VR can work out a way to make sure solo content doesn't detract from group content or encourage people to solo *in preference* to grouping, then great, but I hope they err on the side of caution in that regard.
I'm sure I will want to solo in Pantheon sometimes, but I will be quite happy for it to be just a much less profitable 'filler' experience while I'm waiting for a group or something that enables me to explore without having to *always* have a group back me up (though I'll be quite happy to find I need a group to explore in some areas or explore deeply, like in dungeons).
I would also consider trading, crafting, socialising, etc to be 'solo content' when I can't get a group.
The main upshot is this: There are a load of solo games out there if that's what you feel like doing. To give it emphasis in Pantheon almost certainly at the expense of grouping is just not needed when other games, including almost all other MMORPGs (unfortunately?) do it.
The strong emphasis on group content was a primary factor for my becoming a backer all those years ago.
To me it's like the emphasis on PvE (another primary factor for my pledging). You can't consider PvP 'important' and still make the best PvE game you can. At least it's never worked out that way at all in the last 20 years... maybe VR can do it!? But I mostly hope they don't even try, sorry...
disposalist: The main upshot is this: There are a load of solo games out there if that's what you feel like doing.
We are all investors in Pantheon and I think it is a tad insulting to suggest that anyone with a view to solo should look elsewhere. A point of view that is different from your own should not be fobbed off with such a flippant remark.
Pantheon is group based experience, as stated by VR a number of times but that doesnt preclude a good and substantial solo element which includes adventuring, either. Trading and crafting are of course solo, but it is not adventuring. I beleive both can be achieved without compromise to either element. Strong emphasis on group play is fine and dandy, but we are not always going to want group activities.
I dont agree that considering and providing content for solo play will detract from group play in any way what so ever. I want a good solo experience and a good group experience in a PvE environment. I am certainly not going to look elsewhere until I know what the game is going to be about.
Vandraad said:The game doesn't need content specifically designed for solo play, instead the game shouldl be populated with NPCs and the player determine which ones they can handle themselves with the spells/abilities they have at their disposal.
I disagree. There should be solo content specifically designed.
You'll have to define what solo content means then chenzeme. If it's designed for soloers will that mean groups can not engage in it? If it's designed for groups will soloers be unable to engage in it?
I say this because literally any content can be done solo when you get strong enough and/or any content can be done with a group that is strong enough.
(unless there are mechanics that lock players out based on their group size of course)
From Kickstarter to today, VR has been clear on what their goal is: "Pantheon is first and foremost a deeply social game. Players who desire cooperative play, working together as a team, and the shared experiences that result from playing with other real people to overcome challenges will enjoy Pantheon". That is a huge part of what drew me to Pantheon, and clearly what drew a huge majority of others as well.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/faq/who-is-the-targeted-player-demographic-base-for-this-game-and-why/
There is ample evidence from MANY games available today that giving Players an easy pathway to achieve most of what the game offers thru solo efforts alone will result in a very large % of players chosing to do so. While 5% of the players soloing will likely not have much affect on the rest of us, 50% of them soloing very likely will.
I don't object at all to anyone who wants to join the game and play those aspects of it that they like, and skip those aspects that they don't enjoy. Exploring the world, learning the Lore thru Perception, Harvesting, Crafting, and even Combat with carefully chosen enemies are already solo possibilities for anyone who wishes. I don't ask for VR to prohibit such gameplay.
But I strongly oppose the idea of VR spending time or money developing content for the purpose of solo play.
It's just not the game that they set out to create, and that I pledged to support.
chenzeme said:disposalist: The main upshot is this: There are a load of solo games out there if that's what you feel like doing.
We are all investors in Pantheon and I think it is a tad insulting to suggest that anyone with a view to solo should look elsewhere. A point of view that is different from your own should not be fobbed off with such a flippant remark.
Pantheon is group based experience, as stated by VR a number of times but that doesnt preclude a good and substantial solo element which includes adventuring, either. Trading and crafting are of course solo, but it is not adventuring. I beleive both can be achieved without compromise to either element. Strong emphasis on group play is fine and dandy, but we are not always going to want group activities.
I dont agree that considering and providing content for solo play will detract from group play in any way what so ever. I want a good solo experience and a good group experience in a PvE environment. I am certainly not going to look elsewhere until I know what the game is going to be about.
I really didn't mean it to sound insulting, but I see how you might take it that way, and I certainly didn't intend flippancy. I am serious about the subject and respect a desire for solo content, but I simply disagree it can be anything like an important accomodation without detriment to the group experience.
Considering any content designed for soloing would be trivial for a group, isn't it pretty much an objective fact that if VR develop a significant amount of solo specific content - maybe the phrase should be 'balance content for solo players' - it will mean they develop less group content - content balanced to be challenging and fun for groups?
Maybe this is somewhat semantics. One person's idea of "a good and substantial solo element" is different than another's. I do think there will be 'soloable' content - as I explained earlier - but I expect it to be way less desirable and beneficial than grouping. For example, to solo you should need to be taking on outdoor, non-intelligent, relatively low level, relatively unrewarding encounters. To take on level appropriate, intelligent, indoor monsters for good loot, you should need to group up. Again, of course it would be detrimental to grouping if less people actually need to be (and find they enjoy) doing it.
There are also, of course, other variations to consider, like duos and trios and groups with non-ideal synergies. All these things will be *possible* and - as I said earlier - I would *want* them to be - very interesting and exciting to try and do group content with a less-than-ideal make-up - *but* if you design and balance for those other possibilities as a targeted ideal, you are making content that is boring for groups and, after all, focusing on challenging group content has always been a core tenet of Pantheon.
As for when I say "there are other games if you prefer to solo", what is wrong with that? Can we only play one game, these days? I don't expect MMORPGs to satisfy my need for a shooter - I play Battlefield for that. For an arcade game I'd play another. For a puzzle game, another. I don't expect any one game to do it all for me. In fact, I'm sure that's a bad idea to even hope for.
Soloing and grouping aren't two different things, though, of course, but they are at extreme ends of a scale that, over the last 20 years of MMORPG trending, I think we have seen can't both be satisfied if both are to be a good experience and certainly if you want one to be a focus.
I have actually enjoyed soloable MMORPGs. They aren't awful. They can be good. But it is a very different experience and I am absolutely and desperately gagging thirsty, after 20 years of the MMORPG genre heading *away* from it, to have a properly group-focused MMORPG and hoping (I'm actually sure) Pantheon is it.
The last time I grouped up with some friends and most of the content wasn't a boring trivial experience because of it, I was playing Everquest around 1999. I should say, that's the last time *prior* to playing Pantheon pre-alpha, of course, which is already an excellent group-focused experience (but with the 'possibility' of soloing, just like the old website always said).
disposalist: Considering any content designed for soloing would be trivial for a group...
Agreed, presuming there is no auto scaling involved (which I think has been hinted at in the past) and assuming that diminishing returns will not be a feature of the game. If either are in game, then I dont agree. If scaling is involved, it doesnt matter. If diminishing returns are a feature, then why would a group bother to take out a solo mob unless they had to (which is absolutely fine)?
disposalist: ...to solo you should need to be taking on outdoor, non-intelligent, relatively low level, relatively unrewarding encounters...
I dont agree. I think solo should be anywhere and be of good reward. And I dont see why the mobs must be dumb for solo play either. Both styles of play can go hand in hand and penalising a style of play (because that is what you are suggesting) is not on. I am not saying solo play should be easy to find or easy to complete, but there should be good play opportunities in all areas for both styles. Quite frankly, from the tools that VR have shown, I dont think it would be difficult or time consuming to do both.
disposalist: Soloing and grouping aren't two different things, though, of course, but they are at extreme ends of a scale that, over the last 20 years of MMORPG trending, I think we have seen can't both be satisfied if both are to be a good experience and certainly if you want one to be a focus.
Again, I dont agree. In the early days of EQ, I played solo and in groups. Both were possible, challenging and rewarding. It can be done. It is just MMOs now cater for the common denominator (which is usually casual solo play) so group play becomes uninteresting or too easy. I have seen solo play can run along side group play, quite easily. It just isnt done anymore, thats all.
disposalist: I have actually enjoyed soloable MMORPGs. They aren't awful. They can be good. But it is a very different experience and I am absolutely and desperately gagging thirsty, after 20 years of the MMORPG genre heading *away* from it, to have a properly group-focused MMORPG and hoping (I'm actually sure) Pantheon is it.
I agree, to a point. I want a good group game, but I also dont want a game where I am forced into group play constantly to get any decent rewards or progress. I want time to explore and look around without someone pressing on to the next kill. I dont think it is too much to ask to be able to solo in open ground and the dungeon setting. I also dont think it is too much to ask for rewards on a par with group play when I do so. I am not saying it should be easy to come by. I dont see why a solo side chute in a dungeon would detract from the majority group play in there? I dont see why taking such a route should be frowned upon and heavily penalised either.
disposalist:The last time I grouped up with some friends and most of the content wasn't a boring trivial experience because of it, I was playing Everquest around 1999. I should say, that's the last time *prior* to playing Pantheon pre-alpha, of course, which is already an excellent group-focused experience (but with the 'possibility' of soloing, just like the old website always said).
If solo play was in line with EQ in the early days, then I would be happy. I just think there needs to be good quality solo play in there that is of little use to groups. I dont want to solo constantly and I wont be. The majority of the time I will want to group and press on. But when I dont, I dont want to be excluded from content or penalised for it either.
We don't disagree much. It's mostly a matter of degree and emphasis, I think. Phew! What a relief! *hugs* I hate to fight.
Early Everquest was pretty close to what I would want. All the more interesting areas and rewards in the game needed a group or to solo required you to total over-level and cheese it. Either way, at any aprticular level, you were getting much better and more appropriate reward and much more interesting content in a group. In this way, grouping was hugely encouraged and it was, generally, easy and acceptable to get a pick-up group pretty much anywhere at any time because of that.
I guess it's just what I really really really REALLY DON'T want is a game that leans into the modern trend of making soloing equally viable, because, if it is, it *will* be to the detriment of the group game to some degree.
I am very much looking forward to spending time exploring, doing dungeons in groups etc. However as someone who thoroughly enjoys single player cRPG's, when it comes to MMO's I do like to spend time reading quest text and taking in the lore/environment/surroundings etc. I also have a full time job and other hobbies. I would like to at times be able to take my time, take things in but at the same time explore/kill a few mobs and not just be restricted to chat/trading.
Looking at the responses I do not think people are far away from each other. When playing solo I wouldn't expect to be clearing dungeons or even groups of mobs for that matter unless I was a much higher level. However I would hope to be able to take on single mobs around my level or even trying to pull/break up mobs from bigger groups as a solo player. I have never played EQ so I cannot use that for any comparitive purposes unfortunately.
I understand I'm a casual player but I think if there is no adventuring to be done without being able to be on for hours at a time (taking into account time to form a group/travel and then complete reasonable content) then this really will only be a game for hardcore players. Though I do believe most people in the thread are actually on similar pages.
chenzeme said:I dont agree. I think solo should be anywhere and be of good reward. And I dont see why the mobs must be dumb for solo play either. Both styles of play can go hand in hand and penalising a style of play (because that is what you are suggesting) is not on. I am not saying solo play should be easy to find or easy to complete, but there should be good play opportunities in all areas for both styles. Quite frankly, from the tools that VR have shown, I dont think it would be difficult or time consuming to do both.
So you think that a solo player should be able to solo down in the depths of a dungeon which is, historically, the perview of groups, and obtaining equally good rewards? Really?
I hate to say it, but if you're wanting a lot of soloing in Pantheon then you'd better be happy being relegated to outdoor zones killing animals or waiting until indoor content is so far below you in level to be nearly worthless in terms of XP. That's what you're going to get.