I'm really interested to know what kind of tangible ways VR is planning to track/announce/display renown.
I'm thinking about some of the tenets from the Pantheon FAQ:
- Meaningful character progression increases player power and prestige
- An immersive world requires intelligent inhabitants
- Faction and alignment is an integral part of interacting with the world and its citizens
- The greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared – and earned
I want to more about how these will be meted out as an inhabitant of not only a world, but a game. How will accomplishments be known by other players/inhabitants? For instance, I'm not sure I like the global messages that announce a guild has just attained lvl 50, but it might be world-appropriate and also super cool to have NPCs talking about it in the tavern.
Any player accomplishments should be spread through word of mouth. Community interaction.
We don't need the game telling other people what we have done. Most players will know what someone has done by seeing what gear they have equiped anyway (part of why item identity matters...that has been discussed repeatedly).
Desiring recognition for an in game accomplishment is a bad mindset. Just have fun. We don't need a gold star or an announcement for doing something.
I understand and share the point of view that there shouldn't be 4th-wall breaking acknowledgments of players/guilds, and I agree that most of the "renown" experienced should be in and around community interaction. However, don't you also inhabit the world of the NPCs? Don't you think the town you just saved from the rampaging giant might say, "thanks" when you come around?
Anyone have any thoughts on how to meaningfully accomplish those tenets I mentioned above? If it is only "community interaction" then I don't think "An immersive world requires intelligent inhabitants" and "Faction and alignment is an integral part of interacting with the world and its citizens" will be accomplished.
I'm sure there could be the type of acknowledgement you seek in a flavor of server.
After all there are to be more than a few servers. Some more pvp or some role-playing , so I can imagine one of the servers being an achievement hunter type, maybe a billboard in town with top 10 lists and whatnot. Local NPCs that give discounts for saving the goat that wandered off. Who knows.
Manofrohan said:Anyone have any thoughts on how to meaningfully accomplish those tenets I mentioned above?
They went over the tenets in multiple of the early videos. Brad mentioned them in his blogs. Tenets have been referred to many multiple times throughout development..
If you have a specific question referring to 1 tenet and want an example of how that might be accomplished, many here can probably answer your question. As presented, the answer would be a book. You probably just need to get caught up. It will take awhile. I recommend watching all the videos on the official pantheon YouTube channel as a start.
Manofrohan said:Sigh, I've been a pledger and have been following since 2016. I just don't happen to post a lot and I'm beginning to remember why. Also not looking to "get an answer", just trying to have a conversation. Oh well.
Manofrohan said:I'm really interested to know what kind of tangible ways VR is planning to track/announce/display renown.
I'm thinking about some of the tenets from the Pantheon FAQ:
- Meaningful character progression increases player power and prestige
- An immersive world requires intelligent inhabitants
- Faction and alignment is an integral part of interacting with the world and its citizens
- The greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared – and earnedI want to more about how these will be meted out as an inhabitant of not only a world, but a game. How will accomplishments be known by other players/inhabitants? For instance, I'm not sure I like the global messages that announce a guild has just attained lvl 50, but it might be world-appropriate and also super cool to have NPCs talking about it in the tavern.
I actually like certain announcements going out over the general chat for big accomplishments. My preferred way to see it, however, would be that the farthest-progressed guild's downing a boss for the first time in the game's history could be announced by a GM. I hope they are engaged that much in the community that they remain invisible and watch big events like that.
A side example of this train of thought would be something like an in-game wedding where an invitation is sent out to the server if the event is big enough. Whether it would be big enough I guess is essentially a popularity contest but one that is based on the achievements of the parties involved. If it's a huge server personality or someone who has many accomplishments on the server, a GM could recognize that pillar in the community with the appropriate announcement.
Jobeson said: Renown on the player side is helped by titles and their rarity. So many games push crazy but meaningless titles on everyone. I hope VR tamps it down. Titles should be rare. If 95% of the active players has the same title that title should be removed. Factions and the keeper system will hopefully handle the rest. I have said it before, but if you go out and kill Robinhood the locals should remember. I hope VR uses their flags for this.
Totally agree, especially when I used to look at my 72 titles in EQ2 and didn't care about any of them enough to choose one.
StoneFish said: You all good frohan, just scared the heck out of me. Thinking a slippery slope till we have sponsors and whatnot. I personally want this to be an escape for relaxing chaos. I don't read people magazine irl and don't care what in game celebrity group does. Your discussion is good, I came across a little salty, my bad.
Appreciate it StoneFish. I'm as excited about VR's vision as anyone else and I'm a software designer so I'm just speculating about how they are tactically tackling those at a world-level. I hope they are able to accomplish all of those tenets. It's a hefty list :)
Manofrohan said:Jobeson said: Renown on the player side is helped by titles and their rarity. So many games push crazy but meaningless titles on everyone. I hope VR tamps it down. Titles should be rare. If 95% of the active players has the same title that title should be removed. Factions and the keeper system will hopefully handle the rest. I have said it before, but if you go out and kill Robinhood the locals should remember. I hope VR uses their flags for this.Totally agree, especially when I used to look at my 72 titles in EQ2 and didn't care about any of them enough to choose one.
I like the idea of only one person having a particular title. If you see a title above someone's head, that person is the only one or one of a small few. That means something. Otherwise, it's almost screen clutter.
The suggestion about the game announcing things reminded me of Neverwinter which I tried briefly and ...disliked. Every time someone got something from a pay-to-win lootbox the server was spammed with "oooh Fred just got a horse" or the like. I know that isn't what you are suggesting but I don't think the world should be told when someone does something - anything.
A fairer analogy would be EQ2 where certain achievements are spammed worldwide. "Norrath is still as Mary gets a Tome of Ascension". Something that took a lot of work 4 expansions ago but now is trivially easy to do although they never bothered to remove it from the world spam list. That has really biased me against any world spam.
If VR wants to make certain achievements notable to other players they have better ways. Awarding a mount (when and if the game has such) that is ONLY available to people that accomplish the achievement and that has a distinctive look so it can be recognized. Awarding a weapon or piece of armour or set of armour that is ONLY achievable that way and has a distinctive look. So that people familiar with the game will recognize what it means as I ride through town on the special Steed of the Renowned Paladin or wear the Armour of the Godslayer".
Manofrohan said:I understand and share the point of view that there shouldn't be 4th-wall breaking acknowledgments of players/guilds, and I agree that most of the "renown" experienced should be in and around community interaction. However, don't you also inhabit the world of the NPCs? Don't you think the town you just saved from the rampaging giant might say, "thanks" when you come around?
True but it breaks "the wall" if that is local chat. If I myself haven't slain the dragon but people in town are talking about some person who saved the day? Bummer.
dorotea said:If VR wants to make certain achievements notable to other players they have better ways. Awarding a mount (when and if the game has such) that is ONLY available to people that accomplish the achievement and that has a distinctive look so it can be recognized. Awarding a weapon or piece of armour or set of armour that is ONLY achievable that way and has a distinctive look. So that people familiar with the game will recognize what it means as I ride through town on the special Steed of the Renowned Paladin or wear the Armour of the Godslayer".
I think you're probably right that [maybe :)] the best way to show where you've been and what you've accomplished is your adventuring accoutrement. I think that means VR will really need to stick to their guns and award sparingly. I recall distinctly seeing a Wurmslayer for the first time at the druid rings the west commons and a crowd of people surrounding that guy. Was pretty cool and made me want to find out where got it from.
Iksar said:Manofrohan said:I understand and share the point of view that there shouldn't be 4th-wall breaking acknowledgments of players/guilds, and I agree that most of the "renown" experienced should be in and around community interaction. However, don't you also inhabit the world of the NPCs? Don't you think the town you just saved from the rampaging giant might say, "thanks" when you come around?
True but it breaks "the wall" if that is local chat. If I myself haven't slain the dragon but people in town are talking about some person who saved the day? Bummer.
Ha! Yeah, that would be really tricky to figure out with several players around that area. However, I've also never really liked that I did just accomplish some deed, the person who asked me to do the deed says, "Good job" and gives me some silver, and when I immediately talk to him again, he's in the exact same predicament. From a game standpoint, it means I can get more xp and money, but it definitely separates me a bit from feeling like I'm part of the world.
there is an example of this on a small scale in an old MMO that is on its 28th expansion where they re-did one half of the 2nd expansion in the 28th (juiced up the model from the 2nd expansion) Anyways. After you did some of the initial quests in the story-line, whenever you passed the areas of the walls that were guarded, the NPC's guarding the area would greet you and call out to you by your name. "Oh look, its manouk." or "greetings manouk, nice to see you" . Thing is, when I passed with others? I only "heard" it (chat window) directed to me, I never heard - I never saw a spam chat of greetings to all the players that happened to pass by at the same time. I just saw one greeting to me, specifying me, in the chat window.
However, I think I know what you are getting at and to accomplish it, I think would require a certain amount of memory to be stored for a certain amount of time, after which time it will be relinquished and can be regained or achieved by someone else. What comes to mind is the fairy tale "Seven with one blow". A very small thing for a very small achievement- it could be a source of humor as the NPC's talk vaguely about it and when you finally meet the player character and ask them if what the NPC's are saying is true, they can role-play it or not but also show evidence(the quest reward, in this case, the newbie belt). RL event. PLayer rage quits the next day. How long will the NPC's still chatter about that player before it re-sets? Or on the flip side the narcisict seeing the accolades given by the NPC's and how other players hear of it, plays a Meta of always and forever keeping that honor to himself, regaining it on the exact day it resets so whenever anyone goes intoa certain town they only hear the renown of said player.
Like the guards, if only directed at the player everyone could get a"Seven with one blow" belt and hear- to themselves- the vague accolades from the NPC's. But to individualize it would mean having to get the machine to write that players name into the script once the player has succeed in completing a series of steps. That has a feeling of permanence to me and I think such permanence should be reserved for the folly of the creators.
I hope that there will be no worldwide announcements about player achievements. Not even regional. What an absolutely massive break in realism. You could have a town crier maybe announce something in a nearby town. That's it. The reward is the reward. I think titles are silly too. No titles floating over somebodies head. A name is necessary in game. Titles are not.
... However, I've also never really liked that I did just accomplish some deed, the person who asked me to do the deed says, "Good job" and gives me some silver, and when I immediately talk to him again, he's in the exact same predicament....
I really really hope VR does a good job with flagging stuff like this. They talked about flagging in the perception stream a while back and I hope it also applies to repeatable quests (if there are repeatable quests). The text of the NPC could change based on whether or not you've done the quest before. They can get creative with the wording. But I totally get what you're saying. Here's to hoping!
i can only think about Final fantasy 11 "fame quest" in order for you to get a main story quests, a certain fame must be met i.e sell crystal to gate guard or turn in a bunch of corn and cabbage to a farmer until you max out the require fame criteria.
After you reach a certain fame rank or main quest completion, each town acknowledged your contribution and greatness!
"Welcome Absolute Terror! Thanks to your heroic triumph over Dark Vader we can now live in peace! Take what you need! " (Potions half price)
BUT the game never announced it live on the server. There is a musical bard that shout a song in your name and the server/world you live in will see a message "Absolute Terror... just..slayed... Dark Vader..." <--- music but you have to pay him to sing it each time. Which no one really use or pay hahaha. Maybe some just for giggles.