I've read many comments on these forums and social media in general. One of the themes I've come across are folks using well known and established methods of gameplay to promote challenge and immersion. Some folks were upset about zone lines ending and how they saw trains/or that gameplay as the only legit form of challenge. Some folks brought up progeny and how, in their previous game, their guild used it as a means to advance their characters before they start a raid. Some folks strongly dislike LAS. Some folks don't like that there will not be a linear and singularly established BIS. Some folks mentioned how this system or gameplay from EQ or some other game represents challenge and that VR is just making things up without any sound logic as to why they exist.
I don't agree with any of that and here's why:
I stopped playing WoW not because of the current drama(I stopped before then and came back for Classic), but because of the meta of min-maxing, 'if your rotations aren't the cookie cutter ones then your trash' mentality, optimization of every single aspect of the game and you have to play this way or your trash, speed runs in dungeons because nothing else matters except gearscore advancement, noone wanting to run dungeons and just paying for mage carries and a host of other reasons. A player's familiarity with all the game mechanics means that there is less incentive to grow, experiement, adventure and just get lost in the world. Gameplay is only about flavor of the month classes, raiding and end game. The game doesn't start til max level. How can we cheese the system to get optimal results.
I am absolutely looking forward to Pantheon because they are, very intenionally, breaking all to most of the metas that exists in current gameplay. From what I've read, that meta mentality has affected current EQ because folks know everything and many are there just to optimize performance, not sincerely enjoy the game. I know that's not everyone, but those with that mentality affect how you play currently. Some seem to want all of that type of EQ/WoW meta gameplay with updated graphics so they can enter the world with established advantages and knowledge.
What I absolutely love about Pantheon is that we will all be, for the most part, noobs when first starting. No 'I cheesed the zone lines by fighting close to the zone lines' type established meta or anything that was used in previous games. We will have new systems and entirely brand new challenges to learn and figure out. Yes, after some time and years we will establish some metas, but you will not be starting Pantheon with a gameplan based on your experiences with previous MMOs. We will all be on the same page, so to speak. I absolutely love that combat will not be static based on having everything at your disposal so you can just pick the highest damage spells and run a rotation. You won't be able to download and add-on so you can watch a movie while healing and say healing is boring. You have to pay attention.
I've had this thought for months now, but the lastest Dev Rountable just solidified everything for me. VR has some smart and talented folks who actually play the game they are creating. They have knowledge equal to us and know the things players do in game from experience. They have not had every single experience one can have in a game, but they are actual players. We should give them the courtesy of remembering that.
Tahom gave one of THE best answers for the logic and reasoning behind the LAS that has ever been given. You may not like it, but you cannot use the reason that it is not a well thought out system that has a clear and intentional purpose. Moreover, having no zone lines opens the door for new challenges. Trains aren't the only way to create meaningful challenges. it was just the way EQ did them...one of many. You will have mobs who can be leashed, mobs who will still respect the zone lines, mobs who can be given a 'relentless' disposition that will chase you across zone lines and a host of new challenges. The real challenge is that you can't rely on previous game knowledge. You will have to create new strategies to overcome and will be killed because you are not familar with all the ways they can challenge you with mobs in Pantheon. That,to me, is even more frightening and interesting.
I could give numerous other examples, but the main point is that Pantheon will be a new game we are all playing and not a game that you will go in knowing all the systems and using old ways of thinking for combat and transversing the world. We will ALL have to develop new strategies and ways of thinking. That cannot be denied as being a more interesting way of introcucing a New MMO that you cannot just race through and come to the forums complaining that you're bored. You'll be too busy dying and thinking and adventuring and learning and being in awe of all the new ways to enjoy an MMO designed to counter your old way of playing an MMO.
...and that is a wonderful thing.
Good post mate.
I dont have concerns about the direction Pantheon is taking. I do somewhat miss zonelines but the same challenge it brought can exist with chases and leashes.
Though I'm also well aware that it's going to take practice and tuning before the combat system is in a good state; it won't happen straight away. It's all about those expectations.
Its strange watching people pushing for things that are entirely against what VR has said, but, my favorite thing to see are people who push for two directly opposing ideas because they don't see the relation between them.
There is a reason we are not game devs :D
Dikenzu said:We will ALL have to develop new strategies and ways of thinking... designed to counter your old way of playing an MMO
Don't hype Pantheon too much. There are clearly tropes and easy methods that are a constant to MMOs. FOTM builds for instance will exist in Pantheon, it may be countered by various zones or dispositions, but it will exist to have an optimized build in the majority of the world the majority of the time. There is only one counter to the MMO norm of bandwagoning FOTM builds and VR is against it.
Nanoushka said: It’s actually my main concern when it comes to playing Pantheon. Will the ‘meta mindset’ dominate once again, or will there be enough people running around who’ll shrug at it. And this isn’t something developers have full control over, even tho some design choices will impact it one way or another. It’s the players themselves who’ll reach a consensus over it. I’m worried that the consensus once again will be: “There is one right way, and if you don’t follow it you’re a terrible burden to others and playing it wrong!” Bleh. If so, I give up on mmorpg’s. I don’t mind people figuring everything out, they will, and it’ll be sooner than you seem to expect :). I know some people love doing that, and I respect that my fun may not be your fun and vice versa. I just hate the results of it in other games and their communities, even if it’s an unintentional side effect.
I too am not interested in playing a game that is ruled by those with that mindset. I expect it to exist, but not be the main focus. For the time being, I see enough of the folks that are sincerely interested in Pantheon to be folks who want to experience a modern 'ole school' MMO and and will appreciate the new challenges enough to create a 'meta' of socialization, adventuring and exploring the horizontal progression so often talked about in Pantheon. I will remain hopeful that enough folks of that mindset will exist to balance things out. I'm not a raider or one who rushes to endgame. It will be a year or more before I get to max level. Even then I might decide to go back and level another class. I, probably, will be advancing either my Paladin to a halfway point and starting my Cleric or vice versa. I'm in no rush to max out and will savor the experience.
Well said. The playerbase has grown too comfortable with these MMO worlds, often catered to and, when not, educated before the trial and error even takes place. Those expecting PRotF to be business as usual...can't wait to see them humbled and dumbfounded, brought down a peg and reminded at every turn of their earliest newb beginnings. Not expecting that those same players will be deterred and change their approach/perspective, but hopefully VR has a few more tricks to disrupt the plans of those who only ever min/max/meta.
Leevolen said:Well said. The playerbase has grown too comfortable with these MMO worlds, often catered to and, when not, educated before the trial and error even takes place. Those expecting PRotF to be business as usual...can't wait to see them humbled and dumbfounded, brought down a peg and reminded at every turn of their earliest newb beginnings. Not expecting that those same players will be deterred and change their approach/perspective, but hopefully VR has a few more tricks to disrupt the plans of those who only ever min/max/meta.
The best players will overcome whatever challenge faced and min/max to create the meta. This may vary depending on group makeup and zone / enemy , but will exist. Someone will publish this (although perhaps not until they have finished consuming contetnt.). They will be right, and trying to stop these players will be impossible and counter productive. VR should instead work with these players to define fun alternatives thatcan break / challenge the meta.
Others will bluntly copy what is published, and some will insistit is the only way to play effectivly. They will be wrong, and this is what you need to try and reduce. You can do this by making meta hard to actually apply (i.e skill capped or changes regularly in different areas) or having multiple challenging metas with similar performance.
As I have expressed elsewhere, hopfully we also end up with imperfect information to client so it cannot be mined and some mystery survives.
Thanks Dikenzu.
I have found that after carefully considering VR's position on each issue, they have put a lot of thought into it. There have been things I would do differently, but that's because I am not a clone of anybody on the VR staff. I am really looking forward to living in Terminus. I know it won't be as soon as I like, but that it will be worth the wait.
Galden said:The best players will overcome whatever challenge faced and min/max to create the meta. This may vary depending on group makeup and zone / enemy , but will exist. Someone will publish this (although perhaps not until they have finished consuming contetnt.).
Galden said:VR should instead work with these players to define fun alternatives thatcan break / challenge the meta.
I want to believe that something like a dedicated test server would be enough to feed the demands of these players, placing "rough draft" content before them so they can work out the kinks and, in turn, obtain world/server first bragging rights, not to mention more experimental loot. Some of those targets and items might not ever see the light of day again, at least in their original OP form, making that server a priority for anyone wanting to be at the forefront, to say they were there and did what was thought to be impossible. However, if the past is any indication, EQ's test server had a low population overall so it might not be worthwhile ultimately.
Coming from project1999's blue server, in my experience it's not as straightforward as saying that the devs need to work with players of this mindset. Some of those players aim not only for the number one position, but also to monopolize content and actively prevent others from experiencing it. Those aren't community members interested in fierce or friendly competition, but individuals looking to make names for themselves and their guilds by chasing all potential competitors off what they consider to be their server. This can earn a server notoriety, as seen with the red server, and cause regular old players to lose interest after asking each other, is this fun?
Galden said:trying to stop these players will be impossible and counter productive.
Impossible is a word that never seems to age well, no matter who uses it. But the idea isn't to stop them outright, I don't think. Instead, it sounds like they will be confronted with pros and cons, needing to consider possible ramifications of partaking in the usual murder hobo NWO tactics of the past...at least from what's been said so far about the infamy system. A very basic, one-dimensional example of this would be the Overseer of Air in Plane of Sky.
Dikenzu said:Some folks brought up progeny and how, in their previous game, their guild used it as a means to advance their characters before they start a raid.
(Actually that's one of the main reasons remort systems like progeny are instated. To reduce the high end bottleneck and relieve alot of the contention for raid mobs by directing players towards other areas of the game)
Leevolen said:I want to believe that something like a dedicated test server would be enough to feed the demands of these players
Most of these players will not play exlusivly on test - I think the value is more in ideas to balance classes / abilities and make multiple meta valid. Dedicated player councils from the top guilds can and will do this. Of course thier feedback needs to be parsed for validity and fun value with lower skill/gear too.
Leevolen said:Some of those players aim not only for the number one position, but also to monopolize content and actively prevent others from experiencing it.
This is a different matter, and needs to be activly policed. Not all top players have this mindset,but once it starts to fester it will quickly propogate.
Leevolen said:Instead, it sounds like they will be confronted with pros and cons, needing to consider possible ramifications of partaking in the usual murder hobo NWO tactics of the past...
Again, I think this is toxic play and a different matter. Not everyone whom either creates or follows the meta is this type of player. Hardcore players and hardcore meta formers / followers / casual / social and all itterations between can co-exist as long as toxic behaviour is monitored, policed and enforced. From what I have heard, this is what FF14 does to some extent.
Galden said:I think the value is more in ideas to balance classes / abilities and make multiple meta valid.
Agreed, 100%. It's not about punishing or hemming in any perspective of fun or types of gameplay, but rather making it more challenging and nuanced no matter which angle players are attacking the game from.
Galden said:This is a different matter, and needs to be activly policed. Not all top players have this mindset,but once it starts to fester it will quickly propogate.
Yes, but how many roleplayers or tradeskillers have ever told you that you were playing the wrong class or race/class combination? That tendency to correct others on how they're "doing it wrong" bleeds over into "world domination" which is pretty much absent in other aspects of gameplay, except maybe auctions but that usually involves one or two players, not many working together towards a goal. of course those who abstain from raiding, or who raid casually, do at times min/max and meta whether they're consciously aware of it or not, but hardcore raiding is synonymous with both and often to extremes. That isn't necessarily bad, but it can seriously conflict with the RPG side of things.
So with best in slot not being as obvious as it has been in previous game worlds and with different tank/healer roles having more leeway, the debate between those who min/max hopefully will be less conclusive and more openended as a result, with VR still patching the game post-launch, meaning nothing is set in stone. Whereas, with these older games, there's next to nothing new under the sun. So the casual raider who doesn't min/max is pressured into certain choices, and even asked to switch to DPS class for a raid because anything else would be subpar and potentially costly in a competitive environment. Even if the guild doesn't insist that every member play the most needed class for an encounter, anyone who decides to bring that "nonessential worker" class is going to stick out like a sore thumb. This is where the festering you mentioned seems to begin, with necessary evils. Those evils may rear their ugly heads again but, if all goes well, their heads will be shrunken down and not nearly as ugly as they were before. There's nothing more demoralizing than a chivalrous knight being referred to as a "trash tank" or a ranger being the "speed bump" between warrior disc swaps. Maybe "death touch fodder".
Galden said:Again, I think this is toxic play and a different matter. Not everyone whom either creates or follows the meta is this type of player. Hardcore players and hardcore meta formers / followers / casual / social and all itterations between can co-exist as long as toxic behaviour is monitored, policed and enforced. From what I have heard, this is what FF14 does to some extent.
True, but often the meta can lead to habitual behavior that could be perceived as toxic by the uninitiated. Killing mobs en masse for faction, for example, could be viewed as zone disruption. Another example: I need to obtain a declaration of war from Dain Frostreaver to have a shot at ring 10, but Dain is pulled and dead before I ever get a chance to perform the turn in. Is it toxic that other players pulled and killed him within a matter of seconds? Not necessarily, even if I asked to have a few seconds to complete the quest; if they don't pull a target ASAP, another guild might FTE instead. That's the new meta; pull Dain immediately and stall for as long as possible. But, being a casual player, I might not know or appreciate those details. I petition, but what can be done when no one is breaking any rules? Should the raid min/max crowd be forced to wait? Should the casual be given a ghost version of the NPC that spawns upon death, allowing the player to continue on their quest? These are questions VR has been answering indirectly through perception, infamy, climbing, etc.
But to continue on with that same example. Let's say my character does manage to complete the necessary turn-in and through no small miracle get to declare a ring war. Well, once the war begins, a zonewide message is broadcast, indicating that all other mobs in the zone will soon despawn. Anyone trying to gain experience now suddenly has to wait hours for my guild's war to end. Yes, there are adjacent zones to gain experience in, but some of those players happened to working on their shawl and needed items that only drop in Great Divide (glowing worm bile). That isn't toxic behavior, but simply a consequence of sharing adventures in an open world. Just with climbing alone, a similar type of war could exist in one area without overlapping and interfering with lower level players who are minding their own business. In fact, it could provide them with an awesome backdrop, something to watch during downtime rather than Netflix.
philo said:Dikenzu said:Some folks brought up progeny and how, in their previous game, their guild used it as a means to advance their characters before they start a raid.
Can you explain what you mean by that? Progeny type systems would generally be at the expense of raiding because you can't delevel through progeny and raid at the same time.(Actually that's one of the main reasons remort systems like progeny are instated. To reduce the high end bottleneck and relieve alot of the contention for raid mobs by directing players towards other areas of the game)
I spent some time trying to find the quote that inspired my comment, but was not able to find it. If I do I will post it here. I read the quote in one of the Guild posts, I think. I also remember VR or one of the community streamers briefly talking about progeny systems in older games. I never played in a game with progeny so I can't speak to that. I was commenting on what I read. My understanding(which could be way off) was that one would level a character and then start an offspring which would have some advantages/bonuses/increased stats etc. For those who min/max that would give them an edge when they reach max level with the offspring. Anyway, that's what I thought was being implied when reading what I did.
In the long run that is correct. Players gain some kind of benefit for releveling through the progeny system (we don't know specifics yet). But you have to understand there is a give and take there and the reason why these type of systems are implemented is to provide incentive for players to replay content and route them away from the high end/raiding.
You may have read my post?
I hope to join a guild that works together to re-level through the content multiple times. Sure the guild could stop and do some raid content when everyone reaches max level (if that raid content isn't monopolized by someone else) before taking the plunge to re-level from level 1 again. There will be some perks for playing this way...but you will mostly miss out on raiding and those rewards. It's just a different direction players can take to progress their character. Optional options.
Edit: I feel like VR will encourage this ^ style of play. It's good for the game. Spreads players out to multiple level ranges. Keeps newbie areas active for newer players. Minimizes the high end zone bottleneck. Reduces competition for raid mobs. Extends content and keeps players around. It's a win-win-win if implemented well ;)
@Dikenzu Thank you for a very well written post. While I may not agree with every choice VR has taken, I am always struck by how carefully they have thought about each problem they are striving to address and how often the solution they have come up with is so elegant. My fears for the game have dwindled away and now I actually look forward to see how they will address the few concerns I have left. I am more than excited to explore this fleshed out world and have to find new ways of overcoming the challanges presented. I also can't wait for my child, as well as, old and new friends to experience what looks to be an incredible adventure!
While I love to see this kind of enthusiasm, the post actually made me sad.
Once upon a time, I was like this. I believed in new games to magically change all the bad stuff and only keep the good,... but it never happened. Then I started to understand why it never happened and will never happen. Pantheon will not be the game you think it will be. There will be a meta and there will be harsh min-maxing unless the game is so cumbersome and boring that no one bothers. If you get a 5% speed increase from it, people will trash skills, trash classes and even trash whole mechanics like group actions / reactions.
Remember: Not everything current MMOs have is bad. Not everything EQ had was good and not everything Pantheon promises to be, will even be possible. Sorry to be that guy, but you will be in for a huge disappointment if you really mean all the stuff you said in the OP.
PRotF devs actually have a history with the games mentioned though, among others, and will also be playing their own game, which should keep them up to speed in terms of the meta. Subsequent patch notes and expansions mean that the meta won't be able to metastasize, at least not until the game is sunseted and brought back as an emulated server. This ability to keep pace with those who are ahead of the curve is more noticeable with games like DotA 2 where the duration of a play session is approx 30 minutes to an hour, and where even a few minor tweaks can have a wide range of implications. Every patch requires time for the players to digest, then theorize and test out. Once those changes become stale, new ones are thrown into the mix. It's similar to DnD if the players are metagaming and becoming OP, the DM can make adjustments on the fly or behind the scenes/in between sessions.
If they just patch stuff to make meta gaming harder, they archive nothing.
If there are two people sitting at a table and the first person is a fan of puzzles but the second person isn't...when the entire puzzle box has been emptied, sorted, and worked on until everything that's been pieced together resembles the box cover, the second person is going to feel relieved that it's finally over...but the first person is going to feel a restless "now what" after the sense of accomplishment wears off. The idea is to give that second person something to look forward to, as in, the completed puzzle is actually an autostereogram, something they thoroughly enjoy that is itself a kind of puzzle. And let's just assume that the first person hates trying to find the 3D image within/behind autostereograms. There is still something to be derived from that for them, since they're puzzle work allowed the other person to do what they enjoy. In both cases, the process is what make each person tick, but they couldn't be more different from one another. And yet, no matter how different the two activities are, those engaged in them are immersed in problem solving, peeling back the layers. This isn't the best example, since the second person could have stared at the picture on the puzzle box the whole time without helping out with the actual puzzle, but you the idea.
In the same way, players who min/max are at this virtual table with explorers. Those who intend to climb and swim every corner of the world accept the fact that, even though they will familiarize themselves with hidden shortcuts and what not, the world is bound to change and there will be new areas made accessible whenever the first expansion is released. So all of their firsthand knowledge isn't safely preserved as fact; the devs can always remove or add something without bringing it to the explorers' attention. That doesn't mean their know-how is worthless. The explorers will simply need to retrace their steps more carefully, then make a mental note or an actual one on their printed map, and make better use of their climbing/sneaking skills to avoid the new pathing KoS mob(s). None of that intends to stop the explorer from discovering the world, but instead to revisit and rediscover it, where before they would be liable to hit autorun and hug a zone wall semi-afk. The same could be applied to the min/max crowd, but again in very different ways.
There is a huge difference in adjusting content, because they want to improve it and changing it just for the sake of changing it to change the meta. I will always support changes to improve the experience. Changes just for the sake of it, are wasted time and will not earn a subscription from me. Fighting a lost battle, just so they can claim they try... not worth it even for a split second. They would need several people and weeks or months of work time to make significant changes. Simulationcraft will adjust the meta to that in seconds.
Simply put wasted time. People will metagame every game that is worth it. You can only "fix" that by making the game not fun.
Min/Max in Pantheon will be possible, people will do it and they will benefit from it as they have in every other game. You cannot design a game that avoids it.
Dikenzu said:We will ALL have to develop new strategies and ways of thinking... designed to counter your old way of playing an MMO
Pantheon is not so different that anyone who has even limited experience in MMOs wouldn't intuitively understand most of the game mechanics. While things like Disposition and Traits will require some modification of strategies, it will only barely adjust the standard approach to combat. Pantheon isn't a revolution in MMOs, only another iteration that adjusts a few things while leaving the vast majority untouched.
Leevolen said:PRotF devs actually have a history with the games mentioned though, among others, and will also be playing their own game, which should keep them up to speed in terms of the meta. Subsequent patch notes and expansions mean that the meta won't be able to metastasize, at least not until the game is sunseted and brought back as an emulated server. This ability to keep pace with those who are ahead of the curve is more noticeable with games like DotA 2 where the duration of a play session is approx 30 minutes to an hour, and where even a few minor tweaks can have a wide range of implications. Every patch requires time for the players to digest, then theorize and test out. Once those changes become stale, new ones are thrown into the mix.
VR will not have the personpower, time or money to waste trying to keep up with what tens of thousands of players are doing to their game and to then patch out those strategies in the vain hopes of 'keeping it fresh'. Players will develop strategies at a pace VR cannot hope to ever match and will adjust strategies, if/when VR might ever change something, in days to weeks at most.
Rattenmann said:There is a huge difference in adjusting content, because they want to improve it and changing it just for the sake of changing it to change the meta. I will always support changes to improve the experience. Changes just for the sake of it, are wasted time and will not earn a subscription from me.
Changes made just for the sake of change would be insulting to the playerbase and undermine the care put into development so far. There's no need for empty calories or filler. However, if there's a reason to further develop something, a good reason that makes gameplay more fun, than it would be smart to at least test the idea out, yeah? We've been seeing that already with new additions like the charged monk ability, some version of which will be finding its way into other classes.
Rattenmann said:Fighting a lost battle, just so they can claim they try... not worth it even for a split second.
The developers are fighting a losing battle, no arguments there, but it's similar to the one faced by DMs in DnD. Better put, the DM is expected to win the battle but lose the war. That doesn't always happen and there are TPKs, but those same players still have the opportunity to roll new characters and try again, eventually besting their DM. It's safe to say that the playerbase will "beat" Pantheon and the meta will have triumphed, but the world will still be there, outlasting all of us. If the dev/DM accepts defeat from the very beginning though, the game/campaign won't be worth it and many MMOs already aren't for that reason.
Rattenmann said:People will metagame every game that is worth it. You can only "fix" that by making the game not fun.
Vandraad said:VR will not have the personpower, time or money to waste trying to keep up with what tens of thousands of players are doing to their game and to then patch out those strategies in the vain hopes of 'keeping it fresh'.
Staff over on project1999 has changed the meta on numerous occasions, sometimes on purpose but more often than not through error. Those servers have a relatively low number population, yes, but then the staff has even less personpower, time, and money because classic EQ is a niche game. Reaction-based strategies are developed by hardcore players in short order, but they aren't perfected and standardized until much later. So if that dedicated bunch is still having trouble with the meta in a decades-old game, keeping the world fresh may not even be necessary.
Plus, whenever a patch comes out, something unintended will catch everyone offguard. The meta will adapt, maybe even before the mistake is corrected, but then there's always the chance that it's overcorrected. There are some memorable examples of this from p99. One patch caused all of the female forsaken revenants in hate to prioritize and spam charm. So pullers had to come up with new strategies on the fly to work around this unexpected NPC behavior. And suddenly monks weren't the default choice to bring in mobs and players who didn't know the zone like the back of their hand were hesistant to assist beyond tagging mobs. Then there was the patch that caused all low HP mobs to flee at normal movement speed. Suddenly groups were LF classes with any form of snare or root. And, for the first time ever, all indoor dungeon groups chose rangers over rogues.
The official patch history for EverQuest had its own laundry list of oopsies, which were laughably harsh in comparison. Zoning into Mistmoore only to be pushed out again and again because a sole player went AFK at the zone-in point? All of your coin poofed because you misclicked while using the banker? The shuttles to Kunark have all been replaced with human models in Vitruvian Man pose? Classic.
Vandraad said:Players will develop strategies at a pace VR cannot hope to ever match and will adjust strategies, if/when VR might ever change something, in days to weeks at most.
A handful of players? More than likely yes, but not the overwhelming majority and not that quickly. And while it's better for devs to overestimate those players than to underestimate them, not everyone is going to have the "personpower, time or money to waste trying to" meta the difficulty out of PRotF. Even the most hardcore players on p99 only recently came up with a more perfect answer to rooted dragons in ToV, a strategy that defeats the whole purpose of rooting dragons in the first place. That meta took months/years, coming from players who put in 8-10 hour sessions regularly.
Rattenmann said:While I love to see this kind of enthusiasm, the post actually made me sad.
Once upon a time, I was like this. I believed in new games to magically change all the bad stuff and only keep the good,... but it never happened. Then I started to understand why it never happened and will never happen. Pantheon will not be the game you think it will be. There will be a meta and there will be harsh min-maxing unless the game is so cumbersome and boring that no one bothers. If you get a 5% speed increase from it, people will trash skills, trash classes and even trash whole mechanics like group actions / reactions.
Remember: Not everything current MMOs have is bad. Not everything EQ had was good and not everything Pantheon promises to be, will even be possible. Sorry to be that guy, but you will be in for a huge disappointment if you really mean all the stuff you said in the OP.
The title of my post was Breaking the Meta not ending it. I know that new metas will be made. I even implied as much, so I don't understand why you think I'm being naive. My persona here is one of positivity. There is more than enough 'woe is me this game sucks-I feel betrayed and scammed-insert negative comment #14 million here' mentality to last a lifetime on these boards and gaming in general.
My specific points were that you can't go into Pantheon with the mentality you had with EQ and thinking this is just an upgraded EQ. You will have to spend time learning new strategies and learning new ways of adventuring that did not exist in EQ, WoW or previous MMOs. That may take one a few days or a few months, but you will be spending time doing so regardless. There will be new systems to get adjusted to and new strategies to learn and master. We ALL will have to do that is what part of my point was.
Ex. Thinking the game is like EQ: Rush to endgame thinking you can just start gearing for raids. Some of the gear lies atop a plateau that you have to climb. You had linear progression because you found the 'optimal' path to max level that involve little climbing. You now have to spend time increasing your climbing(and other skills) to access the other content.
Ex 2 You just got to max level and start your journey. You see a player that is 15 levels lower than you with an epic weapon better than the one you have. You inquire where they got it and they said they were out exploring and got a perception ping. That led them to a mountain hideout of a band of fire giants, which led them to an epic quest and the weapon was the reward.
Both of those(an many more)were examples of how thinking vertically in addtion to just the 'optimal way' you played before can lead to others advancing in ways you did not.
Ex 3 In addtion to what I previously said about this: You see a wolf mob and the mob leashes...easy thing you say. The next time you face the wolf mob it chases you to the zone line this time. The next time you see an elite version and it has a 'relentless' dispostion. Your LAS was set up for the leash and zone wolf mobs, but not the relentless one. As a result you die. Later on you have an 'optimal' LAS for all three which includes using a trap to delay the same wolf mob while you escape. This wolf mob though has a 'free action' dispostion and is immune to traps....again you die. In EQ most of that did not exist. There was no one wolf mob type that presented so many diffferent challenges. Yes, you will adapt, but you will be just like the rest of us in that you were not prepared like you would've been had this simply been an EQ upgrade.
These are clear examples of how the game will be different than if Pantheon was just a graphics updated version of EQ. Yes you will be able to overcome those things eventually, but you had to do more than just act on your previous MMO experience.
That's my point. Not "Everything will be so diffrent folks will never be able to overcome them"
To your point about New MMOs, I don't play them because I don't like action combat gameplay in my MMO. I would just play action adventure single player games if that's the case. I downloaded Black Desert Online and deleted from my hard drive a week or so later. I was very impressed watching it in videos and the graphics that folks ooh and ahh about, but I strongly disliked the action combat. It didn't feel like I was playing an MMO. Plus you just have a bunch of graphically impressive mobs standing around just waiting for you to blow them all up like your a super saiyan. Does the game have good points? It most certainly does, but I'm not interested in discovering all of them because the core gameplay is not to my liking. More power to the millions that enjoy that though.
I'm excited to play Pantheon and try out all the things they advertise. I'm going in not expecting the things I am familar with. I'm going in with an open mind to try a new game with very little expectations other than it being a modern MMO with old school game design. That's all I need to go into this game and enjoy it. The other 'things' discussed are just icing on the cake type stuff.
I can't see being involved with ANY game that you can't have some excitement about and seeing things from a negative point of view. I can understand caution, but I don't hear caution when I read so much negtative doom and gloom comments. I really don't get why some of the folks here are here. One can simply be defiant and say they can be whereever they choose to be and say what they want, but I would much rather go enjoy something I actually LIKE than be miserable on game forums.
I will remain positve and enjoy Pantheon just as I described.