Syrif said:Zorkon said:Noticed it posted on youtube (I subscribe to Baz) ...
didn't have time to watch it...Now I'm looking for it and can't find it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NFqA7th9ox0
Zorkon (and anyone else who is still here and concerned)- this is the link of Bazgrim's you may be looking for, not the other links just posted before this. This one is about the niche subject. You can hear what Joppa says.
People are *right* to be concerned the audience for Pantheon May be becoming too broad and seeing the Vision slowly vanish, and the direction changing since the beginnings.
Thats the one
Thanks Syrif
oneADseven said:If Pantheon goes on to be wildly successful, many people will attribute that success to "The Vision" of Brad. If Pantheon struggles or fails, a lot of the blame will be placed squarely on the shoulders of Joppa. We're all familiar with the concept of Risk / Reward and I would wager that most adventurers would give pause before charging into that battle. Speaking of adventures ...
I'm an adventure-loving gamer. My brothers are adventure-loving gamers. My wife and daughter are adventure-loving gamers. I very much enjoy the thought of being able to go on an adventure through Terminus with all of my loved ones. Even though we all have different levels of experience, playstyles, and preferences ... the prospect of going on an adventure in a virtual world resonates with each of us. Speaking of worlds ...
What is the world supposed to represent? To use a metaphor, it should function like a really good Indian curry dish. The unique flavors that go into the dish are what create the complexity and beauty of the "melting pot flavor of the world." The ginger doesn't want to convince the pepper to become ginger. The coriander doesn't want to convince the cumin to become coriander. It's the difference between these flavors and textures that make the overall dish so bold and satisfying to our palate. Differences are not only acceptable in this context, they are encouraged. Speaking of acceptance ...
There were some setbacks that will forever be a part of the story here but I commend VR for not succumbing to the hardships of adversity. Pantheon is in a wonderful place if you're an adventure-loving gamer. Onward and upward!
Niche, compared to what?
As long as I can dungeon crawl slow enough to remember what the mobs look like, have time to appreciate group interaction and actually chat with members while doing so, or leave game activities feeling like I actually accomplished something worth my time then I'm 50% good right there.
If Pantheon commits to their tenets and goals, I'll be happily blown away!
From their FAQ - Community.
WHO IS THE TARGETED PLAYER (DEMOGRAPHIC) BASE FOR THIS GAME, AND WHY?
While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about creating more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences. Pantheon is first and foremost a deeply social game. Players who desire cooperative play, working together as a team, and the shared experiences that result from playing with other real people to overcome challenges will enjoy Pantheon. Players who want an MMO to be their home and to interact with communities and player-driven economies will find what they are looking for in Pantheon. Why? We feel that, at least recently, the MMO players who enjoy these elements have been orphaned. In fact, the Visionary Realms team feels they are part of this orphaned group. And it doesn’t take a lot of research to find countless articles, blogs, and posts full of players seeking for the kind of experience we aim to offer in Pantheon.
Bestowing a focus on social, interactive, and cooperative gameplay makes Pantheon 'niche'? Because, IMO, that's the most significant discrepency most other MMOs have. It might actually attract folks who feel the same way about the droll of current titles. That's not a bad thing.
Upon further discussion, there have been some interesting responses from the community! The fact remains: no where in the definition of niche is there a negative connotation. I suppose that any word in the English language can technically be made into a "bad" word. I don’t quite buy into niche being "taboo." As is abundantly pointed out, I think niche has been a huge benefit. I also think niche is just as cool then as it is now.
#nicheiscool
Syrif said:Upon further discussion, there have been some interesting responses from the community! The fact remains: no where in the definition of niche is there a negative connotation. I suppose that any word in the English language can technically be made into a "bad" word. I don’t quite buy into niche being "taboo." As is abundantly pointed out, I think niche has been a huge benefit. I also think niche is just as cool then as it is now.
#nicheiscool
I agree with this and well said.
Syrif said:Upon further discussion, there have been some interesting responses from the community! The fact remains: no where in the definition of niche is there a negative connotation. I suppose that any word in the English language can technically be made into a "bad" word. I don’t quite buy into niche being "taboo." As is abundantly pointed out, I think niche has been a huge benefit. I also think niche is just as cool then as it is now.
#nicheiscool
Fair point. It does very much come down to how it is used. I think the point many here are trying to make (Joppa and Kilsin included) is that there are some people here who WANT to use the term in an exclusionary manner (i.e. as a "bad word"). I referred to it as "this game is for me, not for you", Joppa called it gatekeeping. The intent, for that group, is pretty clear. They want Pantheon to brand itself as niche in order to keep "that certain group who shall not be named" away. They view that as a "good thing". They want VR to emphasize that "this game isn't made for you, you won't like it."
The difference seems to be that VR does NOT necessarily view that as a good thing. If they make a great game that aligns with the visions and tenets, and that group just so happens to want to come play it - awesome! That's a huge win. For them as developers, as a company, and for the GENRE as a whole. It would be hard proof that modern gamers DO like "old school gaming" done well, EVOLVED well. This could open up whole new doors in MMO possibilities as companies strive to take that "other evolutionary path".
I'll say it again: There is this underlying assumption that accepting that group of players is somehow the same as designing the game to attract them. That assumption, IMO, is blindly wrong.
To be clear, I am fine with people having that desire to keep the "bad players out". Just be honest about it, and stop using these other crazy attempts to claim that Pantheon is somehow turning into WoW. Say you want Pantheon designed in a way that actively drives modern gamers away. You don't want WoW players here, that's fine, that's your preference.
Just own it, and stop trying to sugar coat it.
EDIT:
Serious question, though. How many times are you all going to say "the vision has changed!" despite Joppa repeatedly saying "No, it really hasn't"?
Do you all think he is lying? Confused? Ignorant?
Because despite ALL the reasurances that they aren't changing the vision, you all still just flat out refuse to accept it.
(Response to Finn- I think you provide an example of why people would like a modern alternative to mainstream (ie World of Warcraft and the others). I personally hope for that to happen in the future, whether it's here or elsewhere remains to be seen. Anyway, that’s getting into another discussion, so I won’t respond on that further).
Syrif said:(Response to Finn- I think you provide an example of why people would like a modern alternative to mainstream (ie World of Warcraft and the others). I personally hope for that to happen in the future, whether it's here or elsewhere remains to be seen. Anyway, that’s getting into another discussion, so I won’t respond on that further).
I know you said you won't respond, but this is confusing the heck out of me.
What about anyting Joppa has said indicates it won't be an alternative to mainstream MMOs? Or are you conflating mainstream game design with mainstream gamers?
Do you not think it is possible to create a great MMO, that embodies all the tenets that VR wants to focus on, that will be attractive to mainstream gamers? Do you think modern gamers will only play an MMO with "mainstream features"?
Do you think that, just maybe, the reason "modern gamers" only play "mainstream MMOs" is because they don't have a good alternative? Subsequently, if Pantheon can end up truly being that "modern alternative", that "mainstream gamers" might just find out they like it?
Was this your roundabout way of acknowledging you just don't want "WoW gamers" in Pantheon?
I almost hate to add to this thread, but it actually makes me pretty sad to see some of the comments.
I heard about Pantheon via a Facebook post that was titled something to the effect of "the guy that made EQ and Vanguard is making a new one". Clearly, that was not an accurate title at all, but I loved EQ and my initial interest was piqued. Prior, I had played EQ Live since beta, EQ2, and Vanguard (the simulation).
So starting following VR. I pledged a little and learned who Chris (Joppa) Dave (Roenick) and Chris Rowan, and Ben (Machail) were as people, and what their team goal(s) was. I found I had more faith in them to deliver a game that works and is fun than I ever had had in Brad, and I really liked Brad. So I pledged to VIP.
Now I'm not happy with every single hire VR has made, but Chris, Rob, Kyle and Adam have got me completely sold on where VR is going. Each test seems to have made improvements and I truly like the current direction and pace. Joppa's communication in particular needs specific mention for how clear, consistent and even patient it is with us. Kilsin, to be sure, does a great job in the Discords and the Forum. We really can't complain about any of that communication.
(And I just can't wait for the first testing session in 2022, I think we'll be impressed favorably.)
But... just as we are about to see massive improvements in the game, this vitriol breaks out. I don't understand it honestly. Perhaps the podcast format should be retired for a bit, and the next Dev Stream expanded to include the next question or questions. I never saw such anger as is in this thread, at those.
See I disagree with Nagaskee on the sentiment that it's "vitriol". These are legitimate concerns. And I don't see any issue at all with calling this game a "Niche" title because it IS. If they move too far into mainstream game design I will not be playing nor will many others who pledged, I followed EQ2's development on their forums for years and ended up never playing the game because they said and I quote, "This game is not for you." That is what they told the old school EQ players. Brad never did that with Vanguard, I wasn't able to play it at launch and it had a disastrous launch but I played it under you know who..and they ruined it. It was still an amazing experience but all that P2W nonsense and lack of updates led to it's demise. The core of the game had serious issues the "chunking" was a disaster. But I don't want to stray off topic, my point is that you should not blindly defend anyone. I haven't seen VR say "this game is not for you" to the old school EQ players yet so I still keep an eye on things. I will fully admit my hopes are not high for this game at this point. Should they be? Maybe a lowering of expectations is in order as I would like to see this game release in my lifetime lol.
Syrif said:Upon further discussion, there have been some interesting responses from the community! The fact remains: no where in the definition of niche is there a negative connotation. I suppose that any word in the English language can technically be made into a "bad" word. I don’t quite buy into niche being "taboo." As is abundantly pointed out, I think niche has been a huge benefit. I also think niche is just as cool then as it is now.
#nicheiscool
You're missing the point, my friend, the word niche is limiting by definition, and therefore in many ways negative. We are not limited or bound to one small portion of the gaming market, nor are we just specialising in a small segment.
We are making a game for ourselves that we want to be fun and incorporate all of our game tenets, we believe a large portion of gamers will enjoy this type of game and calling Pantheon "niche" is limiting us or trying to corner us into a select portion of the market/industry and that is just not fair or accurate.
We are not making a niche game or targeting a niche audience.
Joppa's posts were spot on, I would suggest reading them or even re-reading them if needed so you can understand where we are coming from.
The term usually carries connotations of criticism, implying that the classification scheme referred to inadequately reflects the entities being sorted, or that it is based on stereotypes.[1]
When considering various classification schemes, one must be aware of the following pitfalls:
Darch said:Some people feel that: "The word "niche" is just an awful word to use for a game".
I personally believe it is what has attracted the people that are "currently" interested in the game and will only attract more people, opposed to discourage them. But I get the desire to steer away from the word "niche" because "some" people relate it to exclusivity, or elitism and we want inclusivity... even though niche doesn't mean to exclude.
I can totally understand the desire to steer away from a negative image of exclusivity. I think a different approach could be explaining what niche means (and doesn't mean) to PRotF instead of suggesting that PRotF is not being designed to be different than the modern MMO.
Some MMO players won't like it, by definition, that is niche. We need to get the negative connotation away from the word. It is not exclusivity, it is just not appealing to all. USMC is a niche branch of the military, that's neither good nor bad, it's just something that's not for everyone.
"But I get the desire to steer away from the word "niche" because "some" people relate it to exclusivity, or elitism and we want inclusivity... even though niche doesn't mean to exclude"
"USMC is a niche branch of the military, that's neither good nor bad, it's just something that's not for everyone."
USMC has mental, physical, and age requirements to join.. That does exclude a huge % of the US population.
Was EQ a "niche" game when it was released?
UO(hardcore pvp/crafting) dominated the MMO world when EQ(PVE) was released but EQ was marketed to the entire gaming comunity.
no game should market itself as a niche game.
Back to my point.. .. Is a small giant small? Of course it is if you're a giant... of course not if you're a gnome.
I still believe people are getting "EQ core values" and "Niche" confused. Removing "Niche" doesn't mean they are removing the core values of the game.
I'd highly disagree this is a "niche" game. It's basically what Everquest 1 and 2 should have been all along, and that's NOT a "niche" market. That's a HUGE market of players who are dissatisfied with EQ1, EQ2, and even wow. I finally quit EQ2, for good, 1 year ago because daybreak won't fix all their existing bugs, won't fix the game engine to perform properly (because it only uses ONE CPU thread), and they just slap in content with so much P2W stuff that it's crazy. EQ2 had a MASSIVE following until Sony kept nerfing things to heck in 2005 which caused about a 50% loss to their subscriber base. All of the current EQ2, and many prev EQ2 players are CRAVING some like EQ2 (and EQ1) used to be like during their haydays. A lot of those people will FLOCK to Pantheon, and as long as VR doesn't repeat the mistakes SOE and Daybreak have, they will keep their subscriber base.
I'd argue it MIGHT be a niche market if everyone who played EQ1 and EQ2 were long dead and buried, but that's not the case. I was 28 when EQ1 first came out, and now I'm 50. From what I've seen this will have everything I've ever really wanted in an MMORPG. So if I live to be 70 or 75, I will be playing MMORPGs until I drop dead, and chances are, there are also a lot younger people in their late 30s and 40s who are EQ2 fans who will want something like this.
A lot of people really can't stand the new "action" MMORPGS. They cater more towards the Gen Z. Pantheon will cater more towards Gen X, Gen Y, and Millenials who will still be alive and gaming anywhere from 20-40 years from now and beyond. Let's put it this way, the youngest Millenials will be 75 in 2070. It's going to be a LONG time before Gen Z, and newer generations, really get in and redefine gaming to suit their needs and wants. As long as Gen X, Y, and M (Millennials) are alive, there will be demands for a classic MMORPG like Pantheon. I can see this game not working well for younger Gen Z and most of Gen A (Alpha), but those generations won't dominate the gaming market for 20+ years (which is probably beyond the lifetime of any MMORPG made today).
If Pantheon came out 20 to 30 years from now, then maybe... just maybe this type of MMORPG may be out of date, but in the 2020s? No way. If Pantheon didn't come out until 2030 to 2035, then I'd be a bit worried.
Edited for spelling and grammar mistakes.
dorotea said:When I typed my last post I hadn't read what Joppa said - since his came out while I was typing.
Had it been otherwise I could have just typed "what Joppa said" and saved myself some effort.
I'd agree - Joppa covered it pretty well I'd say.
I'll also point out, that for a game that has had people in PA for 4 years now - there's not really a body of disgruntled VIPs out there that I've seen. I'm a pretty hardcore EQ fan going back to launch (+P99 & TLP), and while it hasn't been without it's challenges (7-8 years gestation & 4 years of PA is rough & frustrating for everyone), I'm pretty happy with my pledge level - a level that includes PA access. So are my guildies that I talk to with similar pledges - which consist of more hardcore EQ fans. Take from that what you will, but I'll note that there are quite a few VIPs out here saying people are off-base with the sort of concerns raised in this thread (& others). Maybe that will be of some solace.
First said:dorotea said:When I typed my last post I hadn't read what Joppa said - since his came out while I was typing.
Had it been otherwise I could have just typed "what Joppa said" and saved myself some effort.
I'd agree - Joppa covered it pretty well I'd say.
I'll also point out, that for a game that has had people in PA for 4 years now - there's not really a body of disgruntled VIPs out there that I've seen. I'm a pretty hardcore EQ fan going back to launch (+P99 & TLP), and while it hasn't been without it's challenges (7-8 years gestation & 4 years of PA is rough & frustrating for everyone), I'm pretty happy with my pledge level - a level that includes PA access. So are my guildies that I talk to with similar pledges - which consist of more hardcore EQ fans. Take from that what you will, but I'll note that there are quite a few VIPs out here saying people are off-base with the sort of concerns raised in this thread (& others). Maybe that will be of some solace.
I am not one myself, but that exact take is one thing I consider when I read some of these watering down grievances. There are a ton of PA testers not (without breaking NDA) joining in any kind of fear of future watering down / sky is falling in threads officially or non officially. This gives me great confidence that the devs are well and truly on track
vjek said:IMO:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/faqs#project_faq_78859
What makes Pantheon Unique?
" We believe we are offering something that no one else is - a return to classic-style game play that encourages more social interaction and rewards effort. We believe that the player should dictate how far they progress and not have everyone with the same quality of character, despite the amount of effort put in. To us effort = reward and there will be a difference between players that have a lot of dedication versus those who can only play a little. We believe that when players get together and put in a group effort, the rewards should match. We believe that content and encounters should be meaningful and memorable and not something that gets rushed through in a few seconds, leaving little impression on the players. We believe we can make a world players will actually want to live in again, instead of a game people play when they have some spare time. "
Last updated: Tue, January 14 2014 6:14 PM MST
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/1070199 (Dec 1, 2014) Nov Video
" ... We are targeting a ‘niche’ audience who wants more of a challenge, with a mixture of classic MMO mechanics and modern ideas. ... "https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/1016589 (Oct 13, 2014) Oct Vid
" ... We are targeting a ‘niche’ audience who wants more of a challenge, with a mixture of classic MMO mechanics and modern ideas. ... "https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/1149531 (Feb 27, 2015) New Video
" ... We are targeting a ‘niche’ audience who wants more of a challenge, with a mixture of classic MMO mechanics and modern ideas. ... "--
So, from January 14th, 2014 to at least February 27th, 2015, they were targeting a niche audience.
All the money they gathered during that time, and likely for several years after, was based on that premise and promise.
Attempting to change the meaning of a word is of little value, and just makes them look desperate.
They wrote niche. No-one at VR should be surprised when their potential customers hold them to the meaning of the word.
This is articulated well. Based on what is written and what was communicated, niche helped VR get its start. I think this is why niche was always seen as a benefit; a positive, not a negative. There was lots of excitement and positive discussion at that time from what I remember.
In honest, I'm actually quite happy that they are taking away the "niche" tag from this game, given that some have used it as a means to drive people away from the game; including people that have pledge to the game as well. I knew about this game at kickstarter, but I was hesitant to pledge. I eventually did but, to get there I read what the game and team had in mind. Despite the term "niche" being thrown around, I looked at the game for what it was outside of that tag. In honest, nothing about this game has changed, and to be quite fair, what Joppa has said here, as given me hope again in this game that...maybe it won't be as bad as I thought; and maybe it will actually be what I pledge for. I, and I am sure many other, pledge to this game because they read about the game and understood how the term "niche" was being used.
I have played both EQ and WOW, and After reading as much as I had about Pantheon, I was excited about it and it did eventually make me pledge to this game. I am after a game that is a balance, and I feel that a lot of others are after the same thing. I guess in that sense, the group that wanted the balance was the "niche" they were after, but there are a lot of people on these forums and other places that have taken that term, and have used it as the reason to tell others to either leave the game and go fins something else, or that this game isn't for them.
Pantheon offered a balance between grouping and soloing, and it has from the very beginning. It's this balance that was one of the reasons that I pledged. I loved the way EQ had grouping done, but I also loved the WOW style of solo play...but neither one was very appealing to me. Both games took their respective sides to the extreme and didn't allow for any middle ground and flexibility. Pantheon is offering that, and as a bonus it's even allowing for things to be done in small increments of time. I understand that grouping is going to be favored in this game, and I'm fine with that, but the option after long shifts at work to just come and unwind for a very little amount of time by myself is very refreshing.
This leads to the LFG tool that seemed to have stirred up heated debate as well. I loved the idea in EQ of working and searching for a group of people on my server and in my area to get something accomplished, but I also loved the idea of using the tool in WOW to find a quick group when I didn't have enough time. Though, like with the previous example, neither one allowed for a middle ground or a leeway in any regard; one more both took their respective sides to the extreme, with WOW taking it a step too far for me by adding cross server grouping...which completely destroyed running a group or dungeons in WOW. Pantheon gave me this middle ground in being able to look and search for a group when I had the time, but having the LFG when I might not have that time to spend hours looking for individual people. So long as VR don't do cross server and stick to your area, then it will be the best LFG that is out there now.
Another thing that made me pledge was the idea of the death penalty, believe it or not. I loved the way EQ had it where you had to go back and get your body and your items, but I also loved the way that WOW let you get back into the action quick. Though, what I didn't like is that EQ had a massive hit to your XP, in fact sending you back levels; which I absolutely detested. It felt like what time I had put into my character was completely wasted, and I eventually stopped playing because of it. WOW, while it didn't hit me hard, or at all on the XP scale, it did do durability, which I was alright with...but after a while, the WOW style did get boring after a while, and it seemed I was down and back up again too quickly. Once more, both games took their sides to the extremes and neither was fun. Pantheon seemed to come by with a middle ground for this, even though I don't think there really should be a death penalty at all, I see the need for it. The issue with EQ's version is that it didn't respect the time you were putting into the game by being so harsh and punishing; whereas with WOW it did respect your time, but it didn't at the same time because it essentially just became a nuisance, in turn not respecting your time and efforts. I'm going to be frank here and say that, I think a death penalty is a waste of time, but with the penalty that Pantheon has...I believe it is a good middle ground between the two and it is something I can live with.
The next thing is the challenge. Both EQ and WOW gave me the same sense of challenge in the worlds they offered, but once more they both took their sides to the extreme. EQ made the world too hard and it suffered from technical limitations which also added to the artificial challenge of the world, WOW fixed these issues and technical limitations that EQ had, and made a challenging game world in its own right at the start...but over time, they have added too much to make the game world easy, while also artificially making the world too hard because of it. What I mean is, because it made tools to make leveling easy, it had to start adding ridiculous hard bosses and mobs in order to offset that, which just led into a vicious cycle of your character becoming ever stronger, and fighting ever stronger mobs...I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself correctly here, I'm sorry if it's muddled. If I find the right words, I will edit them in to give myself a bit of better clarity. Pantheon came with the benefits of advancement in tech and mechanics and offered a middle ground in terms of challenge. They offered an actually challenging world but also respected the players want to stay somewhat at level with what they were doing.
Travel was another. EQ made it so hard to travel anywhere, and it once more didn't respect the players time, whereas WOW made it way too easy. I loved the idea of EQ in that you had to walk everywhere, but I also loved the idea of WOW in that you could cut some time off in traveling to major cities and had a mount if you didn't have enough time for something. Pantheon once more came with a middle ground and while it does offer mounts and (I'm hoping they will anyways) offer flight paths or fast travel to and from major cities only, but also made the majority of your travel walking is a very nice balance. Mounts shouldn't be rare, but they should be very basic, like a horse or whatever race specific mount one can have, and that's it, nothing too flashy or out there, but something simple as that. I'm getting off topic here though, sorry. Overall I love that Pantheon is bringing a middle ground to this area and that's all I really want.
Maps, quests, quest markers, and quest journals. EQ didn't have any of these, whereas WOW has completely taken these things to an obnoxious extreme. Pantheon once again came to the middle ground and has offered a map that opens as you go, and I like that idea. I also love the idea of going to find a quest like in EQ where you had to talk to people, but sometimes it's confusing and hard to find. You could spend literal hours trying to locate it and never locate it. I also hate the fact that WOW has so many quest markers that you can't see the map through them, and it's overwhelming. I'm hoping that the middle ground that Pantheon has come to with this is that, give the player enough time to search for the quest on their own, and after a set period of time, maybe recognize that the person can't find it, and then pop a quest marker up as a 'hey, we see you struggling, it's right here' Now, I know that's going to get me a lot of hate, but I don't want ALL of the quests to do that, just like main story ones, and ONLY the one that you are on at the moment. I love the idea of a quest journal as well and I think if done nice and done well it won't be an eyesore like in WOW, but something to serve as a little reminder of where you left off. I'm use to having quest journals from D&D where I would write down certain pieces of info and what they were related to. having something like that in Pantheon would greatly benefit the game.
These, and more, were reasons that I had pledge despite the "niche" tag, and came to the conclusion that possibly the "niche" tag was targeted towards people like myself as well as hardcore EQ players. Though, this tag has become the reason a lot of people here tell others that they either need to leave as this game is not for them, or that they need to look elsewhere for another game. I have been told that very thing while on these forums, even though I have put money towards this game based on the very things above, as well as a vast amount of other reasons. I have seen others be told the same thing and, that's just not right. This game was never marketed as "EQ clone" or " The next EQ2" or anything like that, it WAS marketed as a spiritual successor to EQ, and to me, and I'm sure a lot of others, that means you are taken the elements that made EQ great, and applying a lot of the great innovations from other games to that world to make Pantheon a fantastic game. In honest, I had lost a lot of hope to this game, and I eventually left the forums and stopped posting because a lot of people told me I wasn't welcome here, and that I wanted to water down this game...and in honest, I only wanted the game I pledged to. Joppa's post in this thread has given me new hope, and I'm hoping, it has given others that have felt completely unwelcomed here for wanting what they had pledged for that same glimmer of hope again that this game is going to be the balance that appealed to them and had them pledged. So yes, taking out the "niche" title out of this game is going to stop people from telling others to leave and using it as a reason to force others who have put money towards it, and potential people that want to pledge, away from this game.
Guys, y'all are talking about just a word that ultimately makes sense to the reader only. Whether the word niche means positive or negative, the reflection of your own understanding of the word is what you make of it, you're the only person responsible to read and take the meaning how you will. And whether you see it as negative and you seem convinced that is a negative message given by the other person is your own perception of it. I'm sure if the word niche was used by our developer team on a previous post. As I'm sure was used with a purpose that they once viewed as, but because there has been changes to the game. Not because it was done to ignore a certain crowd of community or was done maliciously because the trajectional ideology of how this game was forseen to be and we all so expected... is mostly impossible to be done because companies do suffer from misfortunes they once had with a projection that they unfortunately had to change by force not because they thought the way the game was once thought of would work. Kilsin mentioned that's what happens when you make a game and you go with how the way a game could work. So, I don't think there should be any bad feelings about what we were once promised but how about instead of complaining of what we did not get or might of gotten is gone and just come together as a community to enjoy a game of communities we were once part of and enjoy it in this new game? Just my 2 cents.
BigBadAzz1 said:Guys, y'all are talking about just a word that ultimately makes sense to the reader only. Whether the word niche means positive or negative, the reflection of your own understanding of the word is what you make of it, you're the only person responsible to read and take the meaning how you will. And whether you see it as negative and you seem convinced that is a negative message given by the other person is your own perception of it. I'm sure if the word niche was used by our developer team on a previous post. As I'm sure was used with a purpose that they once viewed as, but because there has been changes to the game. Not because it was done to ignore a certain crowd of community or was done maliciously because the trajectional ideology of how this game was forseen to be and we all so expected... is mostly impossible to be done because companies do suffer from misfortunes they once had with a projection that they unfortunately had to change by force not because they thought the way the game was once thought of would work. Kilsin mentioned that's what happens when you make a game and you go with how the way a game could work. So, I don't think there should be any bad feelings about what we were once promised but how about instead of complaining of what we did not get or might of gotten is gone and just come together as a community to enjoy a game of communities we were once part of and enjoy it in this new game? Just my 2 cents.
I apologize. I had to edit it many times. This is the actual thought of it xD
OCastitatisLilium said:In honest, I'm actually quite happy that they are taking away the "niche" tag from this game, given that some have used it as a means to drive people away from the game; including people that have pledge to the game as well. I knew about this game at kickstarter, but I was hesitant to pledge. I eventually did but, to get there I read what the game and team had in mind. Despite the term "niche" being thrown around, I looked at the game for what it was outside of that tag. In honest, nothing about this game has changed, and to be quite fair, what Joppa has said here, as given me hope again in this game that...maybe it won't be as bad as I thought; and maybe it will actually be what I pledge for. I, and I am sure many other, pledge to this game because they read about the game and understood how the term "niche" was being used.
I have played both EQ and WOW, and After reading as much as I had about Pantheon, I was excited about it and it did eventually make me pledge to this game. I am after a game that is a balance, and I feel that a lot of others are after the same thing. I guess in that sense, the group that wanted the balance was the "niche" they were after, but there are a lot of people on these forums and other places that have taken that term, and have used it as the reason to tell others to either leave the game and go fins something else, or that this game isn't for them.
Pantheon offered a balance between grouping and soloing, and it has from the very beginning. It's this balance that was one of the reasons that I pledged. I loved the way EQ had grouping done, but I also loved the WOW style of solo play...but neither one was very appealing to me. Both games took their respective sides to the extreme and didn't allow for any middle ground and flexibility. Pantheon is offering that, and as a bonus it's even allowing for things to be done in small increments of time. I understand that grouping is going to be favored in this game, and I'm fine with that, but the option after long shifts at work to just come and unwind for a very little amount of time by myself is very refreshing.
This leads to the LFG tool that seemed to have stirred up heated debate as well. I loved the idea in EQ of working and searching for a group of people on my server and in my area to get something accomplished, but I also loved the idea of using the tool in WOW to find a quick group when I didn't have enough time. Though, like with the previous example, neither one allowed for a middle ground or a leeway in any regard; one more both took their respective sides to the extreme, with WOW taking it a step too far for me by adding cross server grouping...which completely destroyed running a group or dungeons in WOW. Pantheon gave me this middle ground in being able to look and search for a group when I had the time, but having the LFG when I might not have that time to spend hours looking for individual people. So long as VR don't do cross server and stick to your area, then it will be the best LFG that is out there now.
Another thing that made me pledge was the idea of the death penalty, believe it or not. I loved the way EQ had it where you had to go back and get your body and your items, but I also loved the way that WOW let you get back into the action quick. Though, what I didn't like is that EQ had a massive hit to your XP, in fact sending you back levels; which I absolutely detested. It felt like what time I had put into my character was completely wasted, and I eventually stopped playing because of it. WOW, while it didn't hit me hard, or at all on the XP scale, it did do durability, which I was alright with...but after a while, the WOW style did get boring after a while, and it seemed I was down and back up again too quickly. Once more, both games took their sides to the extremes and neither was fun. Pantheon seemed to come by with a middle ground for this, even though I don't think there really should be a death penalty at all, I see the need for it. The issue with EQ's version is that it didn't respect the time you were putting into the game by being so harsh and punishing; whereas with WOW it did respect your time, but it didn't at the same time because it essentially just became a nuisance, in turn not respecting your time and efforts. I'm going to be frank here and say that, I think a death penalty is a waste of time, but with the penalty that Pantheon has...I believe it is a good middle ground between the two and it is something I can live with.
The next thing is the challenge. Both EQ and WOW gave me the same sense of challenge in the worlds they offered, but once more they both took their sides to the extreme. EQ made the world too hard and it suffered from technical limitations which also added to the artificial challenge of the world, WOW fixed these issues and technical limitations that EQ had, and made a challenging game world in its own right at the start...but over time, they have added too much to make the game world easy, while also artificially making the world too hard because of it. What I mean is, because it made tools to make leveling easy, it had to start adding ridiculous hard bosses and mobs in order to offset that, which just led into a vicious cycle of your character becoming ever stronger, and fighting ever stronger mobs...I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself correctly here, I'm sorry if it's muddled. If I find the right words, I will edit them in to give myself a bit of better clarity. Pantheon came with the benefits of advancement in tech and mechanics and offered a middle ground in terms of challenge. They offered an actually challenging world but also respected the players want to stay somewhat at level with what they were doing.
Travel was another. EQ made it so hard to travel anywhere, and it once more didn't respect the players time, whereas WOW made it way too easy. I loved the idea of EQ in that you had to walk everywhere, but I also loved the idea of WOW in that you could cut some time off in traveling to major cities and had a mount if you didn't have enough time for something. Pantheon once more came with a middle ground and while it does offer mounts and (I'm hoping they will anyways) offer flight paths or fast travel to and from major cities only, but also made the majority of your travel walking is a very nice balance. Mounts shouldn't be rare, but they should be very basic, like a horse or whatever race specific mount one can have, and that's it, nothing too flashy or out there, but something simple as that. I'm getting off topic here though, sorry. Overall I love that Pantheon is bringing a middle ground to this area and that's all I really want.
Maps, quests, quest markers, and quest journals. EQ didn't have any of these, whereas WOW has completely taken these things to an obnoxious extreme. Pantheon once again came to the middle ground and has offered a map that opens as you go, and I like that idea. I also love the idea of going to find a quest like in EQ where you had to talk to people, but sometimes it's confusing and hard to find. You could spend literal hours trying to locate it and never locate it. I also hate the fact that WOW has so many quest markers that you can't see the map through them, and it's overwhelming. I'm hoping that the middle ground that Pantheon has come to with this is that, give the player enough time to search for the quest on their own, and after a set period of time, maybe recognize that the person can't find it, and then pop a quest marker up as a 'hey, we see you struggling, it's right here' Now, I know that's going to get me a lot of hate, but I don't want ALL of the quests to do that, just like main story ones, and ONLY the one that you are on at the moment. I love the idea of a quest journal as well and I think if done nice and done well it won't be an eyesore like in WOW, but something to serve as a little reminder of where you left off. I'm use to having quest journals from D&D where I would write down certain pieces of info and what they were related to. having something like that in Pantheon would greatly benefit the game.
These, and more, were reasons that I had pledge despite the "niche" tag, and came to the conclusion that possibly the "niche" tag was targeted towards people like myself as well as hardcore EQ players. Though, this tag has become the reason a lot of people here tell others that they either need to leave as this game is not for them, or that they need to look elsewhere for another game. I have been told that very thing while on these forums, even though I have put money towards this game based on the very things above, as well as a vast amount of other reasons. I have seen others be told the same thing and, that's just not right. This game was never marketed as "EQ clone" or " The next EQ2" or anything like that, it WAS marketed as a spiritual successor to EQ, and to me, and I'm sure a lot of others, that means you are taken the elements that made EQ great, and applying a lot of the great innovations from other games to that world to make Pantheon a fantastic game. In honest, I had lost a lot of hope to this game, and I eventually left the forums and stopped posting because a lot of people told me I wasn't welcome here, and that I wanted to water down this game...and in honest, I only wanted the game I pledged to. Joppa's post in this thread has given me new hope, and I'm hoping, it has given others that have felt completely unwelcomed here for wanting what they had pledged for that same glimmer of hope again that this game is going to be the balance that appealed to them and had them pledged. So yes, taking out the "niche" title out of this game is going to stop people from telling others to leave and using it as a reason to force others who have put money towards it, and potential people that want to pledge, away from this game.
I completely agree with this post. Lurked on the forums for many years before pledging, thinking inside maybe the game is just too hardcore for me (wanting to be able to do some solo content and enjoy questing etc). I never played EQ but really enjoyed Vanilla WoW which again if you read the forums gave the impression I won't enjoy pantheon, but I like most of the things I've seen so far. After all it is its own game
Hokanu said:First said:dorotea said:When I typed my last post I hadn't read what Joppa said - since his came out while I was typing.
Had it been otherwise I could have just typed "what Joppa said" and saved myself some effort.
I'd agree - Joppa covered it pretty well I'd say.
I'll also point out, that for a game that has had people in PA for 4 years now - there's not really a body of disgruntled VIPs out there that I've seen. I'm a pretty hardcore EQ fan going back to launch (+P99 & TLP), and while it hasn't been without it's challenges (7-8 years gestation & 4 years of PA is rough & frustrating for everyone), I'm pretty happy with my pledge level - a level that includes PA access. So are my guildies that I talk to with similar pledges - which consist of more hardcore EQ fans. Take from that what you will, but I'll note that there are quite a few VIPs out here saying people are off-base with the sort of concerns raised in this thread (& others). Maybe that will be of some solace.
I am not one myself, but that exact take is one thing I consider when I read some of these watering down grievances. There are a ton of PA testers not (without breaking NDA) joining in any kind of fear of future watering down / sky is falling in threads officially or non officially. This gives me great confidence that the devs are well and truly on track
This is actually a very important point and one that I factor in when talking to community members. The majority of the fearmongers are people who have not experienced Pantheon in any form yet and are impatient, to them it must seem like whatever we say can't be taken as the truth and instead, they get worried over nothing, when in fact, the PA testers and majority of VIPs are very happy with how things are going.
I think once we hit Alpha we will see a big change in attitude across all platforms as more people will be able to experience what we are talking about and finally be able to trust us and accept that what we say is in fact true and there is nothing to worry about.
Until then, all we can do is try to communicate as much information as possible and clear up any misinformation out there, nothing stops trolls and doomsayers faster than facts! :D
I can't wait until we can open up to thousands more community members in Alpha but we're still working on getting there and appreciate everyone's patience in the meantime.
I am going to lock this thread now as it has run it's course and the questions have been answered officially. Thanks to everyone who kept their replies constructive and reasonable, it is greatly appreciated.