Rattenmann said:Why would that be? Just because?
I know, we are mainly old EQ fans here (me included) and want that old school experience back. We also need the game to actually work and be successful tho. Removing colors from gear does not do anything positive for the game, apart from a few people disliking colors. I am willing to bet that more people (by a factor of 100-1000 actually) like the colors for a quick and easy comparison of item tiers.
We need Pantheon to be a success to enjoy our old school EQ fix. Sacrifices have to be made. Keeping the colors is one of the smallest sacrifices possible (if it is one at all), but removing it would certainly have a noticeable negative impact on the games perception and player base. All the problems people put on the colors can be fixed by fixing the underlying system, which needs to happen anyway. Removing the colors is not fixing anything at all.
Because it isn't terribly useful to the world they are building. Given the lack of "raining gear" compared to other MMOs one isn't likely to end up with an inventory full of magic items, instead it being uncommon to rare to end up with one or two. So taking the time to look at the items you do find and evaluate them on their own merits against what you have or what stats you are after isn't really a chore massively slowing down the player.
And with powerful and lasting magic items where some might last 10, 20, maybe even 30+ levels? Having color coding isn't really helpful. Color coding is more useful when you are getting magic items rained upon you, so you know what is vendor trash and what isn't without much of any work, especially when most items are class/archtype specific. What does coloring even mean when it comes to items, what is the purpose if I still need to inspect the item and compare the stats because sometimes a green is better than a blue or a blue than a purple etc? A quick comparison window is far more useful in this than any color coding.
I don't think having players be a little more thoughtful in their gear choices is a negative thing, in fact it might even make the items more memorable.
Iksar said:Rattenmann said:Why would that be? Just because?
I know, we are mainly old EQ fans here (me included) and want that old school experience back. We also need the game to actually work and be successful tho. Removing colors from gear does not do anything positive for the game, apart from a few people disliking colors. I am willing to bet that more people (by a factor of 100-1000 actually) like the colors for a quick and easy comparison of item tiers.
We need Pantheon to be a success to enjoy our old school EQ fix. Sacrifices have to be made. Keeping the colors is one of the smallest sacrifices possible (if it is one at all), but removing it would certainly have a noticeable negative impact on the games perception and player base. All the problems people put on the colors can be fixed by fixing the underlying system, which needs to happen anyway. Removing the colors is not fixing anything at all.
Because it isn't terribly useful to the world they are building. Given the lack of "raining gear" compared to other MMOs one isn't likely to end up with an inventory full of magic items, instead it being uncommon to rare to end up with one or two. So taking the time to look at the items you do find and evaluate them on their own merits against what you have or what stats you are after isn't really a chore massively slowing down the player.
And with powerful and lasting magic items where some might last 10, 20, maybe even 30+ levels? Having color coding isn't really helpful. Color coding is more useful when you are getting magic items rained upon you, so you know what is vendor trash and what isn't without much of any work, especially when most items are class/archtype specific. What does coloring even mean when it comes to items, what is the purpose if I still need to inspect the item and compare the stats because sometimes a green is better than a blue or a blue than a purple etc? A quick comparison window is far more useful in this than any color coding.
I don't think having players be a little more thoughtful in their gear choices is a negative thing, in fact it might even make the items more memorable.
Could be used for defining Heroic, Epic, Legendary items, etc.
having players be a little more thoughtful in their gear choices is a negative thing, in fact it might even make the items more memorable.
I certainly agree on that one.
I just don't think a niche game like Pantheon has the option to try and change gamer for the better. First it has to get released at some point. Then it needs enough traction to stay online. And if it is GROWING at that point, it can be a great place to start and change the MMO Genre in a meaningful way.
Trying to start with change that the broad masses would not understand and even more would not even consider added value, is not the way to get the thing on the road to success.
I would LOVE to think people will get the EQ vibe and it explodes like it did back then. Reality is different tho. Plenty of games have tried to move away from the working formula. And pretty much all of them had to revert to the norm, just to stay online... meanwhile loosing out on customers and having to scale down development dramatically.
We need change in the MMO space. Not gonna question that. That IS the reason I pledged for Pantheon MANY years ago. We just have to be mindful of which changes we push for at the start. Removing color coding certainly does not bring a big profit that is worth the potential backlash and drawbacks. Each and every change from the working formula needs to carefully weigh gain vs risk. Not how I like it to be, but certainly how it has to be handled in order to not vanish from the market a year after release.
EQ style loot always had tiers, they just did not have colors associated with them.
When raiding we basically said: "We are only raiding content that drops Items with XXX HP, starting from tomorrow"... a week later we said "We are only raiding content that drops items with xxx+50HP starting from tomorrow".
Those where item tiers. When a new expansion launched, we raided it all, until 5 drops did not get distributed, due to no one offering any DKP for them. Then we moved up a tier.
So in EQ terms the color system would not represent magic, rare, legendary, but Tier 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... Yeah, we could just not have these colors. Then people will look at the HP stat again. Or whatever makes Pantheon Items show their tier. Be it number of affixes, HP, Main stat, crit... whatever it may be. There is no way to not have these tiers in a MMO with solo, group and raid content. Then idealy we also have easy solo, normal solo, hard solo... easy group, medium group.... etc.
"The EQ Style loot system", is not much different from WOW of today. It is actually pretty damn identical. The only difference being NUMBER of drops really. And arguably a raiding guild in EQ gets even MORE drops than in WoW. You are just not showered in gear when you LEVEL. After that, EQ was no better than any other MMO I know. We had dozens of drops a raid night. Clearing a Plane of Fire for example, we had several items rot, due to no one wanting them.
Jobeson said: Gear for options not lvl.
+1
If I'm fighting a mob that wielding a weapon and wearing armor he should drop that when I kill him. If he's a wizard or a paladin there should be some chance it's beneficial to that class. If he's a dwarf or a gnome there should be some chance only small races could use. If I don't want to loot that junk I don't have to. Maybe I can use it to outfit a pet. What I dont want is to be getting slightly better gear than I currently have everyday. Gear better than trash loot should be difficult to come by which makes getting new gear far more exciting and will make adventuring more fun.
Halfling-holiday Dev event? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5aZJBLAu1E (smiiling and shimmying, dusts that one off and sees how it lands)
" If he's a dwarf or a gnome there should be some chance only small races could use"
I would have said that if you kill a dwarf or gnome there should be a 100% chance his or her armour and weapons would be dwarf or gnome size. Maybe if the weapon was a massive two hand sword a human could use it as a dagger. OK slight exaggeration.
Mirc said:If I'm fighting a mob that wielding a weapon and wearing armor he should drop that when I kill him. If he's a wizard or a paladin there should be some chance it's beneficial to that class. If he's a dwarf or a gnome there should be some chance only small races could use. If I don't want to loot that junk I don't have to. Maybe I can use it to outfit a pet. What I dont want is to be getting slightly better gear than I currently have everyday. Gear better than trash loot should be difficult to come by which makes getting new gear far more exciting and will make adventuring more fun.
With all due respect to the people expecting the same experience we once had in another video game we all love(d) is probably being a bit unrealistic of the expectations we all would hope. But, even I, as much as I'd love to relive the EQ days I once had. I can't expect to get that type of feeling as much as I do desire it.
We need to keep in mind that this game is way past an era of nostalgia we so much hold dear. Of course, should that stop me from hoping that it should have some type of memory flashback from our old school gaming days? Not really... but saying I'm expecting to relive those moments we all grew up in a newer game that's totally designed with different technology, play styles and different background communities coming into this game, is probably being a bit selfish and unreal.
The reality of it is, we have a lot more people coming from other MMORPG communities and probably even people that have gone to play console games because they couldn't find an MMORPG that could hold their attention. Believing you are owed that priviledge is unrealistic and we need to learn that the best way to relive our own great communities we all once had or have in our gaming history is to best show it by coming together in a game where it's up to us, the community, to make sure we all make a great experience and that I strongly believe is possible.
Can't agree more.
We have to make compromises in order to make it happen. But it is up to us to let the developers know what kind of compromises are ok. Some REALISM has to kick in tho. We can't change everything that makes current MMOs work and expect Pantheon to work anyway. Getting a slice of the broad masses is needed for the cash flow. Nostalgia is not gonna bring in enough people and even less would stay for that.
Hell, I am playing EQ every other year for a while. Remember the great moments, love the experience... and then suddenly don't log in anymore. That is usually 2-3 Months in, when nostalgia wears off and the grind and old school annoyances take over.
That being said: We don't need to make Pantheon a wow copy. Just close enough on SOME aspects, to keep a healthy player base.
Rattenmann said:Can't agree more.
We have to make compromises in order to make it happen. But it is up to us to let the developers know what kind of compromises are ok. Some REALISM has to kick in tho. We can't change everything that makes current MMOs work and expect Pantheon to work anyway. Getting a slice of the broad masses is needed for the cash flow. Nostalgia is not gonna bring in enough people and even less would stay for that.
Hell, I am playing EQ every other year for a while. Remember the great moments, love the experience... and then suddenly don't log in anymore. That is usually 2-3 Months in, when nostalgia wears off and the grind and old school annoyances take over.
That being said: We don't need to make Pantheon a wow copy. Just close enough on SOME aspects, to keep a healthy player base.
Exactly. Take everything in consideration
I'm not saying Pantheon needs to be EQ, but it does not need to be like other MMOs either. It can be its own thing and coexist in the same space as other MMOs. But when it comes to loot, my preference is that it maintains a healthy distance to the loot pinata approach more common these days.
dorotea said:" If he's a dwarf or a gnome there should be some chance only small races could use"
I would have said that if you kill a dwarf or gnome there should be a 100% chance his or her armour and weapons would be dwarf or gnome size. Maybe if the weapon was a massive two hand sword a human could use it as a dagger. OK slight exaggeration.
Ok, that... is hilarious XD
Lafael said:I'm not saying Pantheon needs to be EQ, but it does not need to be like other MMOs either. It can be its own thing and coexist in the same space as other MMOs. But when it comes to loot, my preference is that it maintains a healthy distance to the loot pinata approach more common these days.
I disagree on the own space part. There is not enough space to make it sustainable. At least I don't think so. So many games have tried and failed miserably. And some even tried to be exactly what pantheon is trying now. Failed hard enough that I even forgot the name... was it called Vanguard? Uhm. The one that was supposed to be the "real" EQ2,... semi sure it was Vanguard lol.
As far as loot pinata goes, I remain certain that I got more (raid) loot in EQ per day than I was able to get in WoW at any point in time. Pink glasses if it comes to that I guess. Loot was scares in the very, VERY beginning and ONLY outsides of raid content. What made it special was that getting into a raid guild AND actually getting a boss (without another guild being faster), was hard enough that getting loot felt special.
Remember Sleepers Tomb? It was on farm status by the nr 1 guild on the server, before the second guild actually got their first keys. Finally being able to get in, was a HUGE achievement for some, even tho the loot inside was not THAT great compared to the other raid content. Loot FELT great, but I think it was less the loot itself or the rarity, but the level of work you had to do in order to get there. Once you had the means to get the good loot, it was showered all over you. Much more than in modern MMOs. I remember switching Main toons from a Necromancer to an Archer midway trough the elemental Planes. After 2 raid evenings, my Ranger was geared just as well as the necromancer. Almost all slots filled.
Maybe someone else has a different idea on why we all seem to remember loot being better / more rewarding / more fun than today. For me, it really was the amount of work to get there. And honestly: THAT is not coming back in Pantheon. If they make raiding as hard to get into and don't instance the crap out of the content... the game is gonna die 3 months in, without even getting a chance. I have zero hopes of it making any impact as an MMO, if they screw that one up.
Rattenmann said: So many games have tried and failed miserably. And some even tried to be exactly what pantheon is trying now. Failed hard enough that I even forgot the name... was it called Vanguard? Uhm. The one that was supposed to be the "real" EQ2,... semi sure it was Vanguard lol.
I don't want to derail this thread with a post-mortem of Vanguard. But I am sorry to say you are mistaken in your implications.
Vanguard died because of the economic decisions of the people funding it. It was released WAY before it was ready. Full of glitches, and so UN-optimized that it needed high-powered graphics to run it. By the time it was working well it had lost too many players and suffered from too much negative PR to ever recover. Despite that, it lasted for 7 years and was a great game once it was playable.
While one can argue which problems were the biggest, the game style & mechanics (which is what we're discussing in this thread) have never been considered the reason that it failed.
Lafael said:My foray into EQ was limited to Velious, in both live and P99. I'm not in a position to comment past that era. But during that era, that was not my experience (that raid loot was a plenty).
Velious was certainly loot in abundance. It had like endless raid targets, each dropping several pieces and most took sub 30min to reach and down. And that was before even going into the "real" endgame areas like Sleepers Tomb and... was it Temple of Veshaan? The one with 3 wings full of dragons? The North being like one boss dragon every second corner? That north wing alone dropped more loot than a weekly reset in any WoW expansion I played had total (granted I only played to about Panda land, not sure about the stuff after that).
But your disclaimer about "my experience" may exactly be what we need for Pantheon.
The experience was different for many people. Nowadays, games are designed in a way that EVERYONE can experience EVERY content. Little work needed to get to the most brutal raid targets, usually done in pickup groups. And I know... that is usually considered a very good thing, but it also steals the magic. I remember velious very fondly, when only two guilds on the server dared to venture into that north wing and all the other guildes wiped on the trash at the entrance, or at the gate keeper infront of the zone. Some tried to enter when we killed the gatekeeper and returned with zero loot, since they where not able to get anything done in there.
Being able to pull some raids off was actually an amazing feeling. The feel of scale was real (Velious being a great example, yet again). And the difference between the first raid targets and the strongest raid targets was so huge, that it was hard to imagine even being able to kill the higher tier stuff. Sometimes it took months for the best guilds in the world. Loot was special, because NOT everyone was able to kill them or even SEE them. Get to them. Hell, I guess most people did not even know they existed, because they where so far out of reach.
Loot felt good, not because it was rare (it really was not), but because it was hard to get. Each tier a guild moved up, was a major step with much better loot and a MUCH harder raid evening. THAT is the good stuff most of us remember.
The downside of that: It all got progressively easier with each expansion, even tho stats spiraled out of control and a fresh toon was worthless before getting a few raids worth of loot. The end result: If you did not have friends to take you along, or got raiding yourself for a while,... you could not catch up anymore. You could not seriously help a raid either, because the difference in gear was staggering and outsides of raids gear was hard to come by. Really hard. Depressingly hard even. Saw several people give up and move on.
WOW and others fixed that issue by handing out raid equivalent gear for quests the moment the next xpac hit. Now that removed a HUGE junk of accomplishment for getting good gear, since you knew everyone and their dog would have better a few months down the line for doing a "kill 10 rats" quest.
The more I think about it, the harder it is for me to come up with a good compromise. I want loot to be hard to come by, so it has a meaning. I also want it to last a while and not just 1-2 levels. So it also needs to be semi rare while leveling at least. But how can we manage to keep that, while not pushing away new players? And is it possible to have a MMO that does not automatically give access to everything for everyone? Would a MMO that takes effort to reach the higher tier endgame still work somehow? I am unsure about that. I hope it can work,... but people really got crazy about stuff they think they deserve for logging in without falling over.
Apologies, allow me to correct myself. In live I stopped right before kunark launch. For p99 I played throughout the eras. Though the least was Velious.
Thank you for your descriptive response. I agree with you, especially on loot having meaning and lasting a while.
My hope is that loot is physically identifiable. I want to look at someone and know that their golden breastplate is a rare drop from some difficult and sort after target. Rather than it being just another random nondescript item. I want to look up at other players, dream and set my sights on new exciting goals.
But how Pantheon gets there, and moves forward into future content that brings other challenges, well, that's the dilemma. :)
Lafael said:My hope is that loot is physically identifiable. I want to look at someone and know that their golden breastplate is a rare drop from some difficult and sort after target. Rather than it being just another random nondescript item. I want to look up at other players, dream and set my sights on new exciting goals.
But how Pantheon gets there, and moves forward into future content that brings other challenges, well, that's the dilemma. :)
That may not be possible,... I 100% agree with you. It was SUCH a pleasure to look at people and KNOW from their LOOK how good their guild was. How much effort went into getting that gear. Sometimes asking people where they got an item from, just to learn that you did not even know what boss they where talking about.
I can't see a modern game have that tho. Bosses out of reach of most of the player base? Seems like a big no-no for most. And not being able to adjust the armor and weapon look on demand, also seems to not be possible anymore. People expect to have the look they want... and getting an upgrade, that makes them look ugly... is a valid argument as well.
Pantheon will have to balance A LOT of these kinda things. We KNOW what made EQ great, but replicating it in the modern era is pretty damn hard or impossible.