Just learned about Ashes of Creation mount breeding and taming system.
Please never have this...
If mounts are infinite they are not special or exciting at all.
No one wants the same horse with 50 skins.
Or breeding mounts and hoping for RNG to give you something good.
Stuff like this remove effort from making NPCs fun, filling up towns and taverns with people who have lives, putting minigames in the taverns also.
That is all.
I don't understand your complaint. What game has mounts that are not infinite? Be it EQ, WoW, SWTOR, ESO, AoC there are the same infinite mounts often with different skins. AoC simply made it a trade skill. I am not advocating a trade skill approach, but it is certainly more "exciting" than buying a mount from a vendor.
I am the type of person who wants to have mounts die in game. I don't want to see a world where people train left and right with their mounts. If you let your pack animal die not only does all your stuff it was carrying drop but you need to buy a new pack animal or "pay for a resurrection" to make people not feel horrible they killed their favorite mount. If you train with your horse instead of playing it safe well that is on you go buy a new horse you got your old one killed in a goblin swarm.
As I recall FFXIV has something similar with regard to mounts - perhaps the inspiration for Ashes.
I didn't particularly like it but I am not sure I see your point here. If you get a mount at a vendor, as is common in MMOs, everyone can get the same mounts. If you grind a festival in order to get a festival mount - everyone in the game can grind the same festival for the same mount. If you do a quest for a mount - everyone can do the same quest.
Other than certain highly unusual and special promotions e.g. for charity I cannot think of ever seeing a unique mount or even one limited to the first X people to do something. Nor do I want a game to have a small number of a particular mount that players have to compete with each other for.
Suppose Pantheon introduced mounts and said the first 10 players on a server to get a class to maximum level would be able to get a special champion's mount for that class. Not at all illogical but encouraging people to speed-level is not very much in line with the core objectives. I know you never suggested that but that would be one way to have unique mounts or at least very limited quantity mounts.
bigdigchris - you are making an assumption that mounts in Pantheon would work the way they do in other MMOs. This may be accurate but, then again, it may not be. Mounts could quite conceivably have the same speed as characters do and be put in the game as a cosmetic type item perhaps only available at maximum level. To help show off one's achievement.
Alternatively they could have the same speed as a class with a speed buff so that if they were available at maximum level a high level character with a mount could move at the same speed as a faster class could on foot. One can debate whether that is at all a good idea but if limited to the speed of the fastest character it isn't necessarily unbalancing in terms of gameplay - just questionable in terms of class balance.
Jobeson said:I don't understand your complaint. What game has mounts that are not infinite? Be it EQ, WoW, SWTOR, ESO, AoC there are the same infinite mounts often with different skins. AoC simply made it a trade skill. I am not advocating a trade skill approach, but it is certainly more "exciting" than buying a mount from a vendor.
I am the type of person who wants to have mounts die in game. I don't want to see a world where people train left and right with their mounts. If you let your pack animal die not only does all your stuff it was carrying drop but you need to buy a new pack animal or "pay for a resurrection" to make people not feel horrible they killed their favorite mount. If you train with your horse instead of playing it safe well that is on you go buy a new horse you got your old one killed in a goblin swarm.
All those games to my knowledge have limited mounts, you cant make more than the game supplies.
If in wow you could breed the Zulian Tiger to get infinite tigers with infinite variations, no one would care about the original tiger or any others.
Even as an athiest i pray to the gamer gods they ever implement dying mouts, as you describe.
dorotea said:As I recall FFXIV has something similar with regard to mounts - perhaps the inspiration for Ashes.
I didn't particularly like it but I am not sure I see your point here. If you get a mount at a vendor, as is common in MMOs, everyone can get the same mounts. If you grind a festival in order to get a festival mount - everyone in the game can grind the same festival for the same mount. If you do a quest for a mount - everyone can do the same quest.
Other than certain highly unusual and special promotions e.g. for charity I cannot think of ever seeing a unique mount or even one limited to the first X people to do something. Nor do I want a game to have a small number of a particular mount that players have to compete with each other for.
Suppose Pantheon introduced mounts and said the first 10 players on a server to get a class to maximum level would be able to get a special champion's mount for that class. Not at all illogical but encouraging people to speed-level is not very much in line with the core objectives. I know you never suggested that but that would be one way to have unique mounts or at least very limited quantity mounts.
bigdigchris - you are making an assumption that mounts in Pantheon would work the way they do in other MMOs. This may be accurate but, then again, it may not be. Mounts could quite conceivably have the same speed as characters do and be put in the game as a cosmetic type item perhaps only available at maximum level. To help show off one's achievement.
Alternatively they could have the same speed as a class with a speed buff so that if they were available at maximum level a high level character with a mount could move at the same speed as a faster class could on foot. One can debate whether that is at all a good idea but if limited to the speed of the fastest character it isn't necessarily unbalancing in terms of gameplay - just questionable in terms of class balance.
bigdogchris said:I don't want mounts at all. It completely changes the game.
Oh no my friend mounts are vital, without them any MMO is lacking without them.
They have no negative effect towards a game at all, affecting not pvp or anything else.
Theyre so fun to collect (many mmo players are collectors)
Most of all they keep content relevant, the raids and dungeons that drop mounts/pets get farmed forever, this in turn creates groups for new players/alts who otherwsie would never get a group for content no one needs.
Source: wow, eso and every mmo ever.
"In a nutshell, i dont want there to be any more mounts thn the game supplies, for exmaple breeding them, this wil create too many and with to any variations making none of them special."
I didn't understand your point before, and having read this my lack of understanding continues unabated. It doesn't seem to respond to anything I or jobeson said - it just repeats the comment we said we didn't follow.
"That's a big fat incorrect statement if I've ever seen one."
I have to agree. Mounts have advantages and disadvantages - I find it hard to believe that even the most ardent fan of mounts would not see so much as a single small disadvantage. In Pantheon one of the major objectives is slowing leveling and slowing travel and making the world feel larger. There are areas where I would support fast travel - there are areas where VR has said they support fast travel. These two do not necessarily overlap. But if personal mounts travel faster than characters I see no way they could not undercut the core objective of making the world seem larger. They may be worth having for reasons that override this problem (wording chosen deliberately, of course) or they may never be worth having but to say they have no disadvantages at all - no that simply cannot be.
My 2 cents:. Mounts are rare and die. Falling off cliffs or by a mob.
-- mounts only as pack animals you could keep(with a tax of sometype) to use on long adventures into the wilds.
I don't want to see peeps just buzzing through areas on fast horses and never getting a chance to interact with travelers.
Basic mounts for all would shrink the world and make it feel more theme park.
Grimseethe said: They have no negative effect towards a game at all, affecting not pvp or anything else.
I'm sorry my friend, but that is not correct. There have been plenty of threads discussing mounts and the 'negative effect' they can have. Here are 2 of the biggest ones, if you want to learn what those effects are.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2605/mounts/view/page/1
I am not a fan of mounts, partly because of how thwy are used. to get to someplace and back? ok. To stay mounted while fighting or on a raid? no. It's in the way and cumbersome and your movemements are limited- yes they are. Get to where you are going and...dismount. Fun little bit of fluff.
But if I had to choose I would prefer none EXCEPT-in quests, one time use. Kudos to the clever PC that can "use" the mount the longest at that part in the quest without losing it before finishing that part of the quest where the mount poofs. Who remembers the level 10 ghost rider bridle from befallen?-Pally quest- that was special and made people gawk. One all-too-short distance at SoW speed though, yes I had ghost riders in the sky playing in my head...
"NO flying mounts. That just really bypasses content."
Vanguard had flying mounts - I think added after release. One of the few elelments of Vanguard I will criticize. I agree we shouldn't have them with one exception.
If Pantheon has any public transport system between areas very far apart - like between continents - boats might be better but flying mounts wouldn't be an issue. The problems only arise with personal mounts.
I'm personally against mounts, but if Pantheon were to have them I would say you could purchase a mount, then it is in the world. You can't "unsummon" or "summon" it. Therefore, if you get off of it and leave it, it goes away (runs off, gets eaten, etc). So you can ride around on your horse to some places, but if you have to climb somewhere, or enter an area mounts do do well in and have to dismount and you leave the horse behind, it's gone. And give them hit points (maybe scale it based on price of mount), so that mobs can kill your mount if you go into a dangerous area, so best to stick to the roads.
Yeah, I just dont really see the point to having mounts. The short term benefits dont outweigh the long term negatives. If there's a speed buff on it then not only do you bypass content faster but you also are probably faster than mobs, making the world less dangerous and therefore less immersive. Thankfully, I don't think VR plans on introducing mounts in the game, at least not for a good long while.
I would prefer no mounts in the game at all, be they ground or flying mounts (espcially flyng mounts). They tend to make the game world feel smaller, decrease travel time and exploration, and people mostly use mounts to try to bypass content by riding by it and hoping to outrun whatever they happen to aggro, training the zone in the process.
If there has to be mounts in game, make them inconvenient. No pocket mounts that just "poof" when summoned or unsummoned. They must be stabled, and then retrieved from said stable when you leave the city if you want to use it. Want to go to Halnir Caves? Stable your mount at the nearest settlement because 1) the mount will not go into the Caves, 2) you would have to leave the mount outside the Caves and risk having it wander off or get eaten by mobs, or 3) some wandering NPC steals the horse it found outside the Caves and sells them to Black Rose Keep.
Just my 2 cents
Daloskar
Grimseethe said:Oh no my friend mounts are vital, without them any MMO is lacking without them.
What you give up in everyone having fast travel at all times, you gain in forcing players to learn the environment and forced social interaction to get travel from classes that offer it. Worth it IMO.
They have no negative effect towards a game at all, affecting not pvp or anything else.
See first statement
Theyre so fun to collect (many mmo players are collectors)
Most of all they keep content relevant, the raids and dungeons that drop mounts/pets get farmed forever, this in turn creates groups for new players/alts who otherwsie would never get a group for content no one needs.
Source: wow, eso and every mmo ever.
Source WoW, ESO, and every mmo ever? Thanks for proving my point that mounts are not what's right for this game because of this very reason. If you want what those games offer, play those games. Pantheon must be different if it's going to survive.
Generally not a fan of mounts due to what they do to shrink the world and running through/past mob camps...but if they do have one I hope it is a full in-depth system. Breeding and taming sounds great to me personally, especially if you can put in time to get various colors etc as I remember putting in effort to breed/create different colored Chocobos in FF7 and FFXIV.
Ideally if mounts exist I'd like to see them have their own leveling/stats/equipment, comparatively low HP, aggro mobs that the player might outlevel, and possibly even have permanent death (either after a single or multiple deaths within a time span). Stabling fees, can't be called "at will" by clicking your bar anywhere and remain in the area/region where one dismounts, need to return to the nearest stable to re-mount if one leaves the area/region. Taming/breeding sounds nice too. Make it a rich/deep system.
I like the idea of mounts only as pack animals. This could let you carry more, but at the expense of protecting and feeding your mount. Get off your mount and go in a dungeon and your mount may be killed while you're away and you lose what it was carrying. If you get into a fight your mount can be attacked. If it dies you will have to carry everything your mount was carrying so may need to leave some gear behind due to weight limits. Your mount should be no faster than you. Maybe we'd end up with caravans with hired guards. That could be interesting.
Mirc said:I like the idea of mounts only as pack animals. This could let you carry more, but at the expense of protecting and feeding your mount. Get off your mount and go in a dungeon and your mount may be killed while you're away and you lose what it was carrying. If you get into a fight your mount can be attacked. If it dies you will have to carry everything your mount was carrying so may need to leave some gear behind due to weight limits. Your mount should be no faster than you. Maybe we'd end up with caravans with hired guards. That could be interesting.
Funny you should mention this, because back in late 2013 the concept of the 'Pack Mule' was something Brad promoted heavily. He wanted players have the freedom to stay out in the wilds for longer periods of time so the pack mule would be a mobile, secure, storage. The idea was that sprinkled throughout the wilds would be little outpostss, tiny villages or just some random inn at a crossroads where, for a fee, you could hitch your pack mule while you went adventuring nearby. One important point was that your pack mule was completely secure and could not be destroyed. Brad did not want people losing their pack mules due to griefing, etc.
I wish that idea was still around but the game world has changed far from his original ideas to really incorporate it now. Sad.
I would actually prefer the approach of a more "realistic" mount system, where you can't just go to a stable and purchase a mount that have X% movement speed and then fits in your pocket and never dies or eats. I really appreciated the mount system in BDO, where there was a breeding and raising skill that required you to increasingly upkeep your mount to keep it at peek performance - and you could breed either a pack animal to carry heavy loads (to include armor to help it survive - because it could be damaged and die), or a fast mount which typically died quickly... and they weren't cheap. When you dismounted, you had to remember where you left it, or it could follow you (where it was allowed to) and if you went into a place where it wasn't allowed, and left it for too long, depending on its training it could roam back to it's last stable or stay there until it was finally killed/died... and the coolest part of that system was the horse actually traveled... so if it stumbled upon a pack of traveling goblins or something, say byebye to your horse (and whatever it was carrying), and if you got a teleport to the stable you expected to pick it up at, the horse had to actually travel along the road.
I do believe that mounts are a necessity in any MMO that lasts longer than a couple of years. It is a vital part of every successful MMO... even EQ figured that out very quickly. It is a very easy way to include horizontal progression combined with an economic money sink (opposed to food/water sustenance/upkeep which is just frign' annoying) while allowing players to express/distinguish themselves from others in a slight way.
For those concerned with mounts somehow trivializing terrain traversal, nothing says that mounts have to make you move 100% faster, but they could perhaps allow for an equivalent speed increase as say SoW (aka Wind Strider) with extra storage and perhaps an auto travel feature that allows your mount to walk along roads to destinations it has previously been to, so you can feel free to chat or whatever while sitting on the back of your mount (at the same speed you would otherwise have ran with SoW... but now you don't feel like clawing your eyes out as you hold the "W" button down for 40mins, or /autorun while trying to turn every couple of mins and trying to symultaneously chat).
