Good questions! My thoughts would be as follows:
Dire Lords will still be the go-to tanks for caster mobs, and won't need a shield to guard against magic attacks. And if they balance it well, I think the Dire Lord's self-healing will partially make up for their lower AC when fighting non-caster mobs. Not so much that they will be on par with a Warrior, but non-casters are a Warrior's specialty, while casters are a Dire Lord's. Overall, I'm not worried about DLs getting nerfed, as I think they are paying attention to proper balance among the tanks.
My choice of race for a Shaman hinges on whether or not they end up using shields, so I hope they do! We'll see, though.
It was stated on the old class pages that certain shields might help a warrior block a certain amount of spell damage. I don't know if this is still planned or not, especially since Dire Lords have their Vital Cage ability which acts as a Shield Block against magic, but that may be one thing that makes arcane shields different. Or they may just be special shields that casters can use. Time will tell.
For classes that use shields, I imagine they will need to choose what to hold in their offhand -- a shield for added AC or a tome, totem, etc. for other stats. It would be another of those meaningful choices the devs are cramming the game full of for players to make. :)
Theres been a ton of talk about this since the class page for the DL was updated.
Untill we get to the full balance stage and that'll probably be Beta we can only complain speculate.
On the plus side, making the DL the first tank loaded into the system puts them as the base that the other two need to atleast perfom at.
I hope the potent side applies to all weapons. I am tired of games where one handed weapons are simply 5% worse damage than two handed weapons but its made up by the additional stats on the off hand. There are so many varieties of mechanics different weapons could passively have that I hope Pantheon delves in to.
I love when you have a hard choice to make because all your choices matter to the point where you want alternative weapons (horizontal progression) and not simply looking at the damage.
Do you have the reach with your spear to stand outside of short AOEs daggers simply couldn't dream of doing?
Is the heavy two hander easier to dodge but harder to parry?
Will some tanks run a parrying blade instead of a shield?
Will large shields be better at stopping ranged attacks but worse at stopping small agile attacks?
Would trying to puncture the vulnerabilities in the armor with a warpick be better than using a warhammer to simply maximise the bludgeoning damage on the person inside the armor?
Gyldervane said: Dire Lords will still be the go-to tanks for caster mobs, and won't need a shield to guard against magic attacks. And if they balance it well, I think the Dire Lord's self-healing will partially make up for their lower AC when fighting non-caster mobs. Not so much that they will be on par with a Warrior, but non-casters are a Warrior's specialty, while casters are a Dire Lord's.
I think a common problem in many forum discussions like this one is a VERY common human tendency to define issues in absolute, black & white terms while the reality is usually a matter of degrees. Of course I see a pure melee Boss being a much tougher challenge for a DL than for a Warrior. And a pure caster Boss being an equivalent challenge to a Warrior.
But I doubt that the majority of mobs (and especially Bosses) will be 100% melee fighters OR 100% magic fighters. I see no reason why the relative percentage of those mobs' offensive attacks can't be adjusted to a balance between the 2 types of attack that match the relative 'mitigation balance' between DL's and the other Classes of Tank.
I think I remember some discussion in a stream about mobs altering their behavior based on the makeup of the Player group that attacks them. Taking the type of Tank into account seems like an ideal aspect of that alorithm.
It is my hunch that many of the Dire Lord abilities that are still unknown are going to play into their tendancy to take more damage than other tanks.
In the Dire Lord description we read: "By mastering Essence-manipulation, the Dire Lord is able to wield their own blood in battle, using it to replenish themselves or to assail their enemies from the inside out."
So it's part of the plan that Dire Lords will want to take more damage as they tank, as they will be able to twist that against their enemies. As they take wounds they may be able to enhance themselves to become more resistant to damage, and they can even bend their own shed blood into toxic debuffs to lower the damage output of their foe!
We just don't know what kind of Abilities are out there still for the Dire Lord to discover that will make him just as useful in tanking situations as those basic Shield Bashing Warriors or Holy Reflecting Paladins :-)
I'd like to see shields used better. If you had an ability 'block' and enabled it, each time it was succesful it could drain your stamina but prevent damage. If you had 'block' on and an enemy used an attack designed to break through a shield block, it may use even more of your stamina, so you have to think about when or when not to use it. If you were not using the active block ability, the shield could still provide a general AC bonus to help with avoidance or mitigation.
bigdogchris said:I'd like to see shields used better. If you had an ability 'block' and enabled it, each time it was succesful it could drain your stamina but prevent damage. If you had 'block' on and an enemy used an attack designed to break through a shield block, it may use even more of your stamina, so you have to think about when or when not to use it. If you were not using the active block ability, the shield could still provide a general AC bonus to help with avoidance or mitigation.
And for casters using arcane shields, perhaps blocking would expend mana instead.
In the case of tank classes, I could see mastery points being spent towards shield effectiveness with those conditions in place, somewhat similar to the augments Adamance and Periphery in Dragon's Dogma. More offensive/taunting shield abilities would also make players actually want to equip one rather than always just out of an abundance of caution. The fighter had quite a few of those in that game. The only skill missing from their set was the ability to throw their shield.
The title of this thread brought to mind the bard and the question of whether that class will be allowed to offhand a select few shields, such as bucklers, for those who like to swash. This circles back around to Dragon's Dogma and the Shield Drum skill, which I could see bards using in lieu of an actual drum. It's all spitballing and speculation at this point, but I like that we can expect shields to be more than just an extra layer of AC/HP plus bash.
Warriors are actually being built around Active shield use. The Warrior class has a special combat Resource called 'Resilience'. The pool (Max amount) of Resilience you can build up is calculated from your total overall AC. When you Shield Block you will aquire more Resilience. When you get hit by physical damage it will use this Resilience to absorb some of the incoming damage before it gets to your other Mitigation from Armor. So the more actively you block with your shield, the more damage reduction you will have as you take hits. When out of combat your Resilience will fill or drain back to the 50% of your total Resilience pool. So Warriors will always have some Resilience at the start of fights.
AFAIK Dire Lords cannot use shields, nor plate armor, whereas warriors and paladins can, out of the 3 DPS classes. Apparently, they will have to rely on other means to make up for this deficiency, most probably magic (arcane and/or divine), or innate/spell-like abilities.
So warriors, paladins, and clerics can use shields, but the cleric is not a DPS archetype, whereas the former two are. I forsee all who play clerics using shields, simply for the fact that it grants them high AC so they can heal their party.
Thus the true question: If you have a good two-handed or greatweapon, will you wield this, or your store-bought one-handed weapon and use a shield for AC.
Me personally, I play paladins, and if this were the case, I would sell my shield and use my greatsword. Simply because they have so many healing buffs that you can just wield a greatblade and just cast healing and regen on yourself everytime your hitpoints go low. Something about a paladin with a greatsword that is tremendously appealing to me, ever since d&d 2nd edition. Of course your party members might jive about having a pally in the party who never heals or buffs them and always heals and buffs himself by the end of the day, but at least you have that legendary sword.
CygnusBinary said:AFAIK Dire Lords cannot use shields, nor plate armor, whereas warriors and paladins can, out of the 3 DPS classes. Apparently, they will have to rely on other means to make up for this deficiency, most probably magic (arcane and/or divine), or innate/spell-like abilities.
So warriors, paladins, and clerics can use shields, but the cleric is not a DPS archetype, whereas the former two are. I forsee all who play clerics using shields, simply for the fact that it grants them high AC so they can heal their party.
DPS? Warrior, dire lord, paladin nor cleric are DPS archetypes and should never with any gear approach the DPS of a ranger, rogue, monk, wizard or sorcerer. They may be useful, but not equal in this role. Nor should a DPS class be able to tank on level group or raid content. While many mmos have gone the blender vanilla approach to let many classes do many tasks, I don't expect Pantheon to be so lenient.
Silvermink said:DPS? Warrior, dire lord, paladin nor cleric are DPS archetypes and should never with any gear approach the DPS of a ranger, rogue, monk, wizard or sorcerer. They may be useful, but not equal in this role. Nor should a DPS class be able to tank on level group or raid content. While many mmos have gone the blender vanilla approach to let many classes do many tasks, I don't expect Pantheon to be so lenient.
According to canon, yes. But I have seen the videos and it would seem VR has designated the monk to be a DPS class. Probably the ranger too. But how can you deal more damage with fists or two scimitars when there's a ogre with a sword three times the size of a man wading into battle. Mechanic's-wise, it would seem we are in for a little change, in order to balance the classes and have more people look to the "secondary" classes as being more fun to play.
CygnusBinary said:Silvermink said:DPS? Warrior, dire lord, paladin nor cleric are DPS archetypes and should never with any gear approach the DPS of a ranger, rogue, monk, wizard or sorcerer. They may be useful, but not equal in this role. Nor should a DPS class be able to tank on level group or raid content. While many mmos have gone the blender vanilla approach to let many classes do many tasks, I don't expect Pantheon to be so lenient.According to canon, yes. But I have seen the videos and it would seem VR has designated the monk to be a DPS class. Probably the ranger too. But how can you deal more damage with fists or two scimitars when there's a ogre with a sword three times the size of a man wading into battle. Mechanic's-wise, it would seem we are in for a little change, in order to balance the classes and have more people look to the "secondary" classes as being more fun to play.
Damage isn't always about how hard you hit, but also by how fast you hit. 2 weapons or fists hitting 10x as often as a giant sword can easily outdamage it. Also, don't forget ability damage, not directly attributed to weapons.
Not sure about all the concern about DL balance due to lack of shield, the intent all along is for them to be fully capable tanks with parity to Paladin/Warrior (and not simply relgated to tanking magic mobs). So the same way they balance having heavy chain as their highest armor, VR can further balance them around not having a shield figured it. Not a big issue if you ask me.
CygnusBinary said:AFAIK Dire Lords cannot use shields, nor plate armor, whereas warriors and paladins can, out of the 3 DPS classes.
Silvermink said:DPS? Warrior, dire lord, paladin nor cleric are DPS archetypes.
CygnusBinary said:According to canon, yes. But I have seen the videos and it would seem VR has designated the monk to be a DPS class. Probably the ranger too.
I am just guessing here... but either CygnusBinary is trolling... or maybe english is not his primary language and he is missing the difference between Tank vs DPS.
Tank = Your Job is to be the one who gets hit.
Warriors, Paladins, and Dire Lords.
DPS = Your Job is to be the one who does lots of damage.
Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Wizard, and Summoner.
Healer = Your Job is to keep the other players alive.
Cleric, Druid, and Shaman.
Support = Your Job is to make sure the enemy has the hardest time possible hurting other Players.
Enchanter (Eventually Bard and Necromancer when they get implemented)
GoofyWarriorGuy said:CygnusBinary said:AFAIK Dire Lords cannot use shields, nor plate armor, whereas warriors and paladins can, out of the 3 DPS classes.
Silvermink said:DPS? Warrior, dire lord, paladin nor cleric are DPS archetypes.
CygnusBinary said:According to canon, yes. But I have seen the videos and it would seem VR has designated the monk to be a DPS class. Probably the ranger too.
I am just guessing here... but either CygnusBinary is trolling... or maybe english is not his primary language and he is missing the difference between Tank vs DPS.
Tank = Your Job is to be the one who gets hit.
Warriors, Paladins, and Dire Lords.
DPS = Your Job is to be the one who does lots of damage.
Rogue, Ranger, Monk, Wizard, and Summoner.
Healer = Your Job is to keep the other players alive.
Cleric, Druid, and Shaman.
Support = Your Job is to make sure the enemy has the hardest time possible hurting other Players.
Enchanter (Eventually Bard and Necromancer when they get implemented)
Actually that makes more sense, thanks. I'm not a troll, just new to Pantheon and MMOs. Understand the difference, look at your name.
BamBam said: @CygnusBinary welcome to Pantheon, thanks for joining the discussion. :)
Thank you, @BamBam. To get back on topic, IMO it depends on the shield, really. If you have a well-crafted one or an artifact-tier shield then I would use that and a one-handed weapon. If it's just some shield you bought off the store at a cheap price then the AC won't be that great so dump it for a greatweapon.