I was reading through Saamir's post in the "Introduce Yourself" forum.
In that thread, three people talked about the sources that convinved them to pull the trigger on supporting Pantheon. It made me wonder about the other members of our community, and how they came to be here.
So what pushed YOU over the edge, and convinved you to pledge to Pantheon?
For me, it was Nathan NAPALM's videos on YouTube. His videos weren't just entertaining and informative: his enthusiasm and positivity towards Patheon are what convinved me to pull out my credit card and pledge
I'm not a fan of Nathan Napalm... at all. Not a big fan of any streamers that just stream other people's streams and then make their own commentary about it - misleading some of their viewers that they are experts on the content.
But what drew me to PRotF was a willingingness to support an idea for a game that I want to see become a reality.
IMO:
" So what pushed YOU over the edge, and convinved you to pledge to Pantheon? "
The pledge was the cost of purchasing the game. I learned from SOTA to never pledge more. Never again, for the rest of time.
Personally I find 7+ year crowdfunding efforts to be ridiculous, given EQ1 was developed from scratch, with no tools or frameworks (like Unity) in 3 years.
After so long, I also have very little confidence the game will be even half of what it claimed at the Kickstarter.
In-game rewards from pledges is just the start of the inevitable pay2win cash shop.
All the undocumented 'restarts' and attempts to rewrite history demonstrate the mantra is opacity, not transparency, to me.
I thought the game would be a great thing to play if it was ever released. I thought being on the development forums actively would be a great chance to contribute to the thinking about the game at an early stage when forum discussions might actually affect some of the gameplay design. I thought that I would probably get more hours of entertainment from reading and posting on the forums than I have gotten from quite a few games I have tried over the years so even if Pantheon flopped I would at least break even.
I have never regretted it.
Recently got nostalgic for the time I spent a couple decades ago in EQ, created a new EQ1999/green acct and char. Watched a couple of CohhCarnage's streams with the Pantheon devs - the discussion of what this game is going to be convinced me I'm part of the remnant seeking gaming experineces unfamiliar to those who've never done EQ. So, here I am.
Darch said:I'm not a fan of Nathan Napalm... at all. Not a big fan of any streamers that just stream other people's streams and then make their own commentary about it - misleading some of their viewers that they are experts on the content.
But what drew me to PRotF was a willingingness to support an idea for a game that I want to see become a reality.
Hey Darch, glad to meet ya'! I'm not saying that Nathan is an expert on Pantheon, or that other streamers don't provide more accurate information. But I do respect his enthusiasm and his positive attitude. And I agree with you completely about wanting to support a studio's vision for a game that (in all probability) wouldn't be made by a bigger company
such as Blizzard or Square Enix.
vjek said:IMO:
" So what pushed YOU over the edge, and convinved you to pledge to Pantheon? "
The pledge was the cost of purchasing the game. I learned from SOTA to never pledge more. Never again, for the rest of time.
Personally I find 7+ year crowdfunding efforts to be ridiculous, given EQ1 was developed from scratch, with no tools or frameworks (like Unity) in 3 years.
After so long, I also have very little confidence the game will be even half of what it claimed at the Kickstarter.
In-game rewards from pledges is just the start of the inevitable pay2win cash shop.
All the undocumented 'restarts' and attempts to rewrite history demonstrate the mantra is opacity, not transparency, to me.
vjek, I hear ya'! Having only recently discovered the game myself, I can only imagine how hard it must be to wait so
long for Pantheon to release. And VR may very well have to limit the scope of the game as compared to their original intentions.
But only the flip side, look at how much they have been able to accomplish with such a small team! Sure, they have made mistakes and had setbacks, as have we all. Plus, unless you're lucky (or rich!) enough to be a pre-alpha tester,
we really haven't seen the full scope of the game at this point in time. And just because the entire scope might not be there at launch doesn't mean that they won't patch it in later.
I disagree that in-game rewards from pledges inevitably lead to a pay2win cash shop. Why not give VR the benefit
of a doubt? This game is obviously a labor of love for them, and I believe that they want it to remain "pure" just as much as we do.
- Giskard
dorotea said:I thought the game would be a great thing to play if it was ever released. I thought being on the development forums actively would be a great chance to contribute to the thinking about the game at an early stage when forum discussions might actually affect some of the gameplay design. I thought that I would probably get more hours of entertainment from reading and posting on the forums than I have gotten from quite a few games I have tried over the years so even if Pantheon flopped I would at least break even.
I have never regretted it.
dorotea, your comments remind me of something I was thinking about recently: waiting for your meal makes it all the tastier when it finally arrives. The anticipation, the delayed gratification, is actually a good thing. It gives us time to talk about the game, to discuss races and classes, to argue about the morality of allowing gnomes into our parties (sorry, being a WoW Horde player since 2004, I couldn't resist that one).
As a recent example, I think back to the year in between Blizzard's announcement of Classic WoW and the actual launch date. I had so much fun watching YouTube videos, planning my characters, reading leveling guides, feeling a sense of excitement and anticipation. Had Blizzard simply announced it and deployed it at the same time, I feel like a big part of the experience would have been lost.
- Giskard
Giskard said:...
I disagree that in-game rewards from pledges inevitably lead to a pay2win cash shop. Why not give VR the benefit
of a doubt? This game is obviously a labor of love for them, and I believe that they want it to remain "pure" just as much as we do.
...
IMO:
Their intentions are irrelevant in the face of 21+ years of history in which: If the team is willing to provide in-game rewards for RL cash, under any conditions, the slide down to full pay2win is inevitable.
From my perspective, and those in my guild, every MMO we have all ever played in those intervening years since M59, The Realm, and UO, history has proven this true.
I don't doubt their intentions might have been idealistic at some point, but for many many years, possibly since the Kickstarter, they have offered equippable items as well as items that expand the players inventory, for money. Pay the money, get the reward. Progress an in-game progression system (gear, inventory) without playing the game.
The barrier is broken, the precedent has been set, now all that's left is to see how quickly they add the rest of the pay2win items to the cash shop directly.
It's not like it doesn't work. It does. It makes money. It makes a profit. It creates revenue. It's better than a subscription, on the quarterly earnings report. Those (again, historically proven) results aren't in dispute, from my perspective.
I just wish they had the integrity, in the past, not to follow the same historically proven path to pure greed. It taints the entire direction of all development aspects of the game, and integrity is the first casualty. It's all such a waste of time and effort without integrity, and such a massively wasted opportunity.
vjek said:I just wish they had the integrity, in the past, not to follow the same historically proven path to pure greed. It taints the entire direction of all development aspects of the game, and integrity is the first casualty. It's all such a waste of time and effort without integrity, and such a massively wasted opportunity.
I hear what you're saying, and I agree that history is not on VR's side.
But keep in mind that they have rejected financing from sources that would have resulted in the loss of creative control. This suggests that they do have integrity, and that they are not entirely motivated by greed.
Since the items they are offereing with the pledges seem to be relatively minor (to the best of my knowledge), I don't have a problem with this practice, especially if it helps VR to continue making a great game. Now if they were selling the Ultimate Sword of Whatchamadoodle, that would be a different story. Although I'd really like to have seen the concept art for that item! :)
Dyen said:Recently got nostalgic for the time I spent a couple decades ago in EQ, created a new EQ1999/green acct and char. Watched a couple of CohhCarnage's streams with the Pantheon devs - the discussion of what this game is going to be convinced me I'm part of the remnant seeking gaming experineces unfamiliar to those who've never done EQ. So, here I am.
Hey Dyen, I'm one of those people who have never played EQ, and still am very interested in the Pantheon experience.
I've actually been considering checking out EQ. Are there active low-level player accounts on the server you are currently on? Enough to support lower level dungeon groups or other open world content? Or do you think it would be better for an EQ newbie to start on one the TLP servers?
I heard about the game about 5 years ago and thought "oh that might be fun if it ever comes out" and kept my ear out for updates. I didn't hear much until about 2 years when I saw some gameplay. I don't remember if it was Cohh stream, some of Minus's footage, etc but what I saw, even with the greyboxing and most of the classes missing, looked like a game I wanted to play.
And what I mean is this: The unfinished game they presented was in such a state that I would play that game if it were released. Any improvements or additional mechancis would just be delicious sides to the meaty, juicy steak that is the gameplay they showed off. As an EQ1 & 2 player, I'd been searching for a similar experience for a long time so I went and immediately backed the game. I was kind of hoping we'd be in Alpha by now, but the steady progress they've made is heartening.
@Giskard EQ live servers are basically dead at the lower levels, per my experience. Even if you get a heroic character to 85 (or whatever the current heroic level is) you'll still struggle to find groups. Especially outside of the most recent expansions (the newest 3 of which aren't free like the older ones are.) I would buy a subscription and play on a TLP. Aradune would be my suggestion if you want a more "classic feel," but Mischief and Thornblade have fun "random loot" mechanics that I've heard a lot of good things about.
I'll repost form my forum one.
Was keeping an eye on Pantheon, Ashes and EQN. Pantheon failed its kickstarter so moved on, Ashes moved in a direction that wasnt interesting to me so moved on again.
Come the day EQN is confirmed cancelled and what pops up but that first stream of Pantheon running throught the hills killing orcs.
Thats the one that sold me, spent some time digging around the forms and what info I could find around the web then setup an account and pledged.
Byproducts said:@Giskard EQ live servers are basically dead at the lower levels, per my experience. Even if you get a heroic character to 85 (or whatever the current heroic level is) you'll still struggle to find groups. Especially outside of the most recent expansions (the newest 3 of which aren't free like the older ones are.) I would buy a subscription and play on a TLP. Aradune would be my suggestion if you want a more "classic feel," but Mischief and Thornblade have fun "random loot" mechanics that I've heard a lot of good things about.
@Byproducts, thank you for the advice regarding EQ servers. I would definitely want to be on a server with active low-level players, otherwise I feel as though I'd be missing out on a big part of the experience.
Any other tips/advice for a new EQ player?
Giskard said:@Byproducts, thank you for the advice regarding EQ servers. I would definitely want to be on a server with active low-level players, otherwise I feel as though I'd be missing out on a big part of the experience.
Any other tips/advice for a new EQ player?
Not really. It's hard to go wrong now on that game. Each class has their moment to shine depending on the current expansion. Casters can be a bit daunting so you might want to start with a Melee. A Monk in particular if you want to feel hilariously OP.
Abt a year after the original kickstarter failed.
I'm sorry, but the people I saw originally touting the game seemed cheesy to me, offering bags?! J-boot-like things?! the only thing that kept me on the outskirts was Brad's involvement. I wanted to see how things were shaking out and switched from an emotional attachment to a objective attachment of indie game design. Then the kickstarter failed and I was like - fek. But then I saw the cheesy people left or were no longer around- I dont remember their names just their faces. But I can understand why original pledges are super important and consideration for those original promises must be made, even though they might now be removed from the intent of the game regarding P2W and game advantage items and such a noble stance to forgo such things for the ideal might be easy for some; for others the exchange should be honored from a purely transaction perspective, noblesse oblige aside.
Chris sharelinked some theme music. Then forums got started and I lurked in forums and realized- there were alot of people in the forums posting fairly regularly, like a community. So I joined just for forums. Then, I realized what they were trying to do and rebuild and I decided to contribute what was considered the norm for monthly subs, and additionally what I would pay a month for what they envisioned, on top of the forums. My thinking was: as a start up, sure, chunks of money are valuable to calculate "burn rate" as they say in Silicon valley sit-com but also I thought a consistent regular flow of reliable income is also valuable. Maybe not as much but still valuable.
Giskard said:So what pushed YOU over the edge, and convinved you to pledge to Pantheon?
It was the posts and discussions Brad and the original development team had with players back in mid 2013. These were about game mechanics and gameplay that they wanted to put into Pantheon. Sadly, nearly all of those things have gone by the wayside.
Vandraad said:It was the posts and discussions Brad and the original development team had with players back in mid 2013. These were about game mechanics and gameplay that they wanted to put into Pantheon. Sadly, nearly all of those things have gone by the wayside.
Removing/changing those elements are what made me finally pledge. The game as it was pitched was just EverQuest 1.5. What they showed was even worse than that, it was EverQuest in a new skin. If the team launched the game they pitched today it would flop just as hard as the Kickstarter did. I pledged when I was certain the design of the game had evolved enough from EverQuest/Vanguard so as not to be another re-adaptation or remaster of a game I've already played.
P+.
Minus & Therek. And the entire community over there.
VRs dedication to this game, their communication and vision.
And winning a pledge was the swift kick I needed, and upgraded it immediately after.
The reason why I hesitated was due to the shirty AUD to USD conversion.
I pulled the trigger last year. I needed to see dedication and commitment to working on and producing the game. The event that convinced me to go all-in was that the team acquired the right to continue working on the game after Brad passed, and they have remained dedicated to seeing it launch. I had been following since 2016 and debating about pledging to a VIP level since late 2018. Honestly, one of the best decisions I ever made, and I don't regret it.
Giskard said:I was reading through Saamir's post in the "Introduce Yourself" forum.
In that thread, three people talked about the sources that convinved them to pull the trigger on supporting Pantheon. It made me wonder about the other members of our community, and how they came to be here.
So what pushed YOU over the edge, and convinved you to pledge to Pantheon?
For me, it was Nathan NAPALM's videos on YouTube. His videos weren't just entertaining and informative: his enthusiasm and positivity towards Patheon are what convinved me to pull out my credit card and pledge
I kind of knew I was going to support the development of Pantheon way before I actually did. It took a while to save up my pledge. I was mainly attracted to the project by Chris Perkins and Brad McQuaid, in that order. Chris seemed to me to be a kindred spirit. I sympathized with his stories about early console nostalgia and his frustration with the direction MMO's were taking. The more I saw him play and design the more I felt like we play games the same way, that kind of sage approach. Something about that made me trust that he would make a game I could sink my teeth into without breaking it.
If I go far enough back in my gaming timeline, I end up on a table top playing D&D. Back then, it was kind of a normal thing at the card shops and basements to geek out over your favorite D and D authors. And I am not talking about fantasy story-tellers, I am talking about the game designers who helped create the feats and spells and items that we all knew and loved. These guys were the archaic form of a modern MMORPG Designer. I still fanboy over Gary Gygax and Bruce Cordell, my personal favorites. When virtual games started to outperform table top games and M.U.D.s and MMO's sprung up, I remember feeling nostalgic with that favorite author fanboy feeling towards Brad MacQuaid. I like the way he designed. There was a distinct amount of trust and therefore peace I felt because I got the sense that Brad McQuaid had tried to fairly consider everything. So even if a design went counter to my preference, I still felt considered. I will give you a specific example of what I mean. In one of the early videos Brad had to field a pretty difficult question on the fly about the games plans for dual boxing. It was something along the lines of "what would you do if you found out someone was dual-boxing?" or something like that. It is very easy for a developer to just pander to the audience and say "oh dual boxing is bad and i can guarantee you we will stop it." Brad said he would look into it and get to know the problem. He would find out what is what before making any adjustments. Brad took personal responsibility and said if he creates a game where someone can dual box then he screwed up. It should be difficult enough to play one character that two would take someone exceptional. If he designs it correctly choosing a character loosely controlled should be a liability that no one would want. That is a ridiculously reassuring answer.
I also saw Brad McQuaid and Chris Perkins as these over-arching figure heads helping to guide Pantheon and preserve continuity. I don't think people realize how rare that is for a game company. That kind of continuity was a real problem for dungeons and dragons. There would be 17 feats that have various flavor text about charging recklessly giving up accuracy for extra speed and damage. They all got printed and they all stacked. Now you have some muscles on muscles barbarian being so recklessly reckless with his recklessness that his reckless charge recklessly rekt whatever it touched. Everyone always assumed there was some big brain guy holding it all together and making sure redundancies and mistakes didn't make the cut. But that person usually does not exist and these games are created in a very compartmentalized way. That is how you end up in that situation where the players of the game know more about the game than the lead combat developer. I do not get this feeling from the creative network Visionary Realms has forged. And for the first time in a long time I feel like the devs know quite a bit more about the game than I do.
Pretty much Brad Mcquaid.
His passions for projects and envisionning MMO's as an organic thing to grow and build for players to explore brought so much vibes about how MMO's weren't about harvesting daily rewards and weekly boss rights to kill, but about exploring, playing together and questing for rewards.
No disregard for the rest of the team, but back when I started following Pantheon most of them were still unknown figures, Joppa was still listed as a sole head of music creator.
With the growing years and passing of Brad they made numerous monthly videos that helped to know them and show that their passion was running and intact, shaping pantheon into what would be a modern quality MMO's with core values passing from the Everquest Legacy, which is exactly what it should be.
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Gottbeard said:If I go far enough back in my gaming timeline, I end up on a table top playing D&D. Back then, it was kind of a normal thing at the card shops and basements to geek out over your favorite D and D authors. And I am not talking about fantasy story-tellers, I am talking about the game designers who helped create the feats and spells and items that we all knew and loved. These guys were the archaic form of a modern MMORPG Designer. I still fanboy over Gary Gygax and Bruce Cordell, my personal favorites.
@Gottbeard (nice moniker, btw!), I too have fond memories of playing AD&D back in the day. My friends and I would stock up on candy, order pizzas, and stay up all night running dungeons. My favorite module was Gary Gygax's "Tomb of Horrors". Those were some of the best days of my life.