Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Greed in a random group

    • 33 posts
    August 15, 2021 1:28 PM PDT

    Greetings Gamers

    The situation is as follows : you are in a full group, its going well xp wise but 1, 2 or 3 of the groupmembers are very efficient looters, so the rest gets no loot.

    Are you happy with that? Will you stay and be satisfied by the fact that its an efficient group and that xp is rolling in nicely, or will you leave?

     

    For me, any type of greed lessens the game, it wont give me a pleasent memory of the playsession, perhaps plenty xp, but nothing more. And ill rather have a slower xp rate with people that are not so greedy that they just have to loot everything for themselves. So i would leave.

    • 1019 posts
    August 15, 2021 1:41 PM PDT

    I'm hoping for a loot system likes EQ2 does.  Group leader is able to set the loot rules (and typically it's Need before Greed) and when loot pops up, you hit need or greed. Other group members can see what you're choosing so, if you're a jerk and are always hitting Need, you'll quickly find yourself groupless.

    • 2001 posts
    August 15, 2021 2:31 PM PDT

    My personal belief is that bringing the subject up in group chat, and asking for a fair compromise, is the right first step. An important aspect of that is that one or more of the group may feel the way I do but not want to cause a fuss. If I just leave, then I give a bad impression about myself to that person(s).

    THEN yes, if I can't reach a compromise that works for us all, I'll make the same choice as the OP and leave the group. The point of this game - for me - is to make friends and have fun. XP, Loot, Levels, etc. are all just the vehicle to accomplish that.

    • 438 posts
    August 15, 2021 3:33 PM PDT
    Personally I am in favor of round robin (if everyone agrees in said group) for fodder loot. If an item is dropped and a said person needs it for the character they’re playing, should go to them without say. Otherwise a /rand 100 should suffice.
    • 1281 posts
    August 15, 2021 3:34 PM PDT

    As long as there is coin split and people are sharing looting sellables then I think it's fine. If someone is hoarding looting then I will call them out.

    • 256 posts
    August 15, 2021 3:36 PM PDT

    It would really depend on the situation. 

    I try to be as fair as possible when it comes to loot drops. I typically play a healer, so I pass on anything melee-oriented. I also try to allow casters' priority when it comes to damage specific gear. However, I expect a similular treatment when it comes to healing gear.

    If I am leading a group and an individual is taking everything that drops, then I am going to address the behavior.  Should the behavior persist, then I would remove that individual and find a replacement. If I weren't the leader and found myself in this situation, then I would probably just leave if multiple people were doing it. 

    I always try to ask what the loot rules are if a game doesn't implement standard rules. I also try to find people who are like-minded and are willing to fairly distribute loot.

    The devs have made it clear that items and their stats are important to fundamental gameplay. If you're in an environment where you're constantly being denied gear, then you're going to be hindered in the long run. It's not an environment that I would stay in for any lengthy amount of time. I might tolerate this behavior temporarily to complete a quest, but I wouldn't stay long.

    • 1273 posts
    August 15, 2021 7:19 PM PDT

    Can I have another option?  I would speak up. I'd probably say something like "I'm not getting much loot, is there a better way we can share?"  or "Is it OK if I start looting some stuff?"  Something along those lines, see if it opens up communication on the subject.  It seems like some people just loot to clear bodies off their screen, it's not always about greed.  They might be thinking "obviously no one else wants this stuff, I'll clean up I guess."  

    Now, if the answer to my question ended up being something like "you snooze you lose" at that point I'd consider my options.  Maybe I'd start looking for another group, maybe I'd just log out for the night, or go do some crafting, etc.  If I don't enjoy the people I'm grouping with I tend to switch things up.  With that said...I've never had that happen in all my years of gaming, MOST of the time simple kind words go a long way.  Communication and friendliness go a long way.  

     

    Edit:  I wanted to post before reading other responses, now that I've read others I see that Jothany said basically the same thing as me :)  haha


    This post was edited by Ranarius at August 15, 2021 7:20 PM PDT
    • 2001 posts
    August 15, 2021 8:54 PM PDT

    Great minds think alike.

     

    That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

    • 888 posts
    August 16, 2021 12:35 AM PDT
    Players will have a loot priority which starts out the same for everyone but can be augmented via cash shop purchases that increase priority. (only kidding, but I predict this will actually become real in some other games before too long
    • 9115 posts
    August 16, 2021 3:32 AM PDT

    This topic has been promoted for my CM content, please continue the discussion and have fun! :)

    "Hot Topic - Greed in a random group, do you tolerate greedy group members? Join the community created discussion here: https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13167/greed-in-a-random-group #MMORPG #CommunityMatters"

    • 107 posts
    August 16, 2021 4:57 AM PDT
    I've a low tolerance for greedy folks. If it's a random group I've formed, the NBG policy is stated before we begin. If I've joined a group, I'll politely ask the looting rules & make my decision on whether or not to stay based on the type of answer I get.
    • 724 posts
    August 16, 2021 6:56 AM PDT
    I will avoid greedy people, or anyone with other detrimental traits.
    I would gladly play for hours with people that I enjoy and laugh alongside with, even if we gained no XP and lost any items we found/earned.
    I'm sure we will have a few types of loot drop management tools to test in alpha.
    • 3852 posts
    August 16, 2021 9:02 AM PDT

    It is not just an issue of fairness. Many groups have wiped because the more selfish players go around looting before the fight is over and the fight turns out not to be as easy or as close to finished as they thought. Or maybe they didn't even care.

    By default cash on bodies should be distributed evenly so that there is no benefit to getting to the corpse while it is still twitching. Low value loot should be given round robin - there is no reason whatever to roll for vendor trash. Loot with real value should be rolled for. I emphasize "by default" there should be other options.


    This post was edited by dorotea at August 16, 2021 9:02 AM PDT
    • 1273 posts
    August 16, 2021 9:08 AM PDT

    dorotea said:Many groups have wiped because the more selfish players go around looting before the fight is over and the fight turns out not to be as easy or as close to finished as they thought.

    LOL, I've been teaching my 12 year old this exact lesson while we play Valheim together.  I'm getting my butt kicked and he's running around picking stuff up...I've yelled at him on more than one occasion for this.  It'll get through!!  I hope :)


    This post was edited by Ranarius at August 16, 2021 9:08 AM PDT
    • 888 posts
    August 16, 2021 11:07 AM PDT
    I want to see several options and changing loot should settings should only be allowed when no one in the party has aggro.

    I want a Need Before Greed option that tracks how frequently each option is selected (per character) and will factor in to the distribution of drops. So if someone frequently rolls Need, that character will win fewer rolls. A sort of Karma adjustment to the calculations.

    I would like to see the Need option be split into Need (which means you will equip it now and it's an upgrade) and Want (which means you will keep it in your inventory and use it situationally).

    I want to see a "Sell" option that comes before Greed in hierarchy. The Sell option tags all the current party member names ti the item. When it's sold, every player gets an equal share.
    • 2752 posts
    August 16, 2021 12:16 PM PDT

    I'd speak up and ask if we could get some better system. 

     

    As for mechanical loot options I would like to see Want/Pass be the extent of it. 

    • 10 posts
    August 16, 2021 4:59 PM PDT

    I've been in a few groups in some MMOs where theres no care what so ever about ninja looting, and thats pretty unfortunate. I enjoy the excitement of looting the mob and sometimes seeing an enchanted weapon or some other rare drop, and even if its a little pop up that shows the loot im ok with that, I would rather see that then never seeing a random epic drop ever again. I think a lot of players enjoy this aspect of the game. I also think this helps all players get a fair look at the loot they helped fight to get.

    • 454 posts
    August 16, 2021 5:08 PM PDT

    I want zero ninja looting.  No one can loot until everyone in the group has no aggro.  Anything looted shows up in game texts.  NBG can be fair but sometimes more than one player can use the loot.  Then /ran 1 100 works.

    • 150 posts
    August 16, 2021 9:31 PM PDT

    I don't know. I like the unpredictability of open loot, where everyone in group reaches an agreement and has to trust each other to abide by that. The human element of MMOs is why I like MMOs so much. The group wipes and everyone knows why, knows who is to blame. The player who was too busy looting and not assisting. But maybe that player's personality is the glue that has held the group together during previous xp sessions. They're own natural charisma compensates for the urge to loot everything first. So the group doesn't kick that player out and just adjusts their roles around the one unreliable player who keeps things interesting in /gsay and in combat.

     
    If the game world and its systems become so padded that more and more of the social dangers are taken away preemptively, by default, how does that not straightjacket the playerbase in terms of decision-making? Greed comes at the expense of reputation within a group and eventually the community at large, as word gets around. If all loot is distributed the same way or very similarly, than that aspect of gameplay will be less eventful. 
     
    In one EQ group I remember, from years ago, a monk looted a lesser gem midway through the fight. "Just clearing corpses," he claimed, eventually, after I made mention of it. Once it became obvious that he was keeping it for himself, I linked the item in /gsay. The monk then lol'd and stopped pulls. All members of the party had agreed to alpha rotate gems and random on anything better.
     
    As the group began to chime in, the monk grew more dismissive, suggesting that the gem was only worth 30p, if that. Laughable, in his opinion, that anyone would even make an issue out of it. Fire opals vendored for 40p though, as someone else pointed out. Then another group member mentioned that fire opals were also used in jewelcrafting recipes and required for more than a few quest turn-ins. Now the entire conversation turned to the subject of which gems are worthy of being rotated.
     
    Forgetting all of that, I was actually next up for loot and had no need for the most expensive gems, whereas other party members were hurting for money, lacking certain spells and what not, which was part of why I wanted the fire opal. Eventually the monk relented and gave it over, but I never heard the end of it from him. From then on he never referred to my character by name, but instead as Fire Opal. Whenever we crossed paths it was always, Hail Fire Opal. And on the few occasions we grouped again, "Everyone welcome Fire Opal to the group".
     
    Granted, an EQ monk would have their reasons for acting this way, given that they weren't able to casually accumulate all of the gold, silver, and copper pieces like everyone else or loot any of the fine steel, but it still seemed like an overreaction that he would let one gem color our interactions from then on. And as annoying as it was having to deal with that monk, it's a somewhat amusing memory that exists because the game left it up to us to decide. 
    • 247 posts
    August 17, 2021 1:07 AM PDT
    So the one thing that I don't think anybody's ever asked and I guess it kind of goes with this stream is when it comes to gold and money on corpses is there an auto split for the group like there was an EQ that you can turn off or on? And as far as looting and that type of thing I really liked when when you looted something it made the comment that x players looting x item and link the item I hope that Pantheon does this as well. And I hope we get the auto split on gold.

    As far as greedy players more likely they'll probably get kicked out of a group for loot stealing so I'm not concerned there most people when you're in a group will ask if anybody needs it for an upgrade at least the start of the game. If there is an ultra rare items in your camping or mob it might be something that gets rolled on depending on how long groups spin there and how many you've seen but for the most part people are pretty good Hey if you need that take it.
    • 902 posts
    August 17, 2021 3:05 AM PDT

    This touches on areas that have been discussed lots in the past, whether systems should be in place to force fair looting and how you could implement them. Greedy individuals are easy to spot and get rid of. But I have been in groups where everything was ticking along nicely. No one taking advantage until a rare item drops, ninja looted and the culprit quits the group. Systems were eventually put in place to stop this from happening which shows that Pantheon needs something too. There has to be some protection for the fair minded players.

    No system is perfect, but simply allowing ninja looting is not an answer. People who do, do not care about their character's reputation. If the game (hopefully) gets 1000s of players on line, each with multiple characters, it will be difficult to identify and keep track of those that take advantage anyway.

    I believe each group should decide how loot is to be split, and that there should be tools available to enforce the group's choices and that they can be seen clearly by the other players. Whether that is a master looter or randomly given or rolled on an individual basis (etc, etc), it doesnt really matter as long as everyone in the group knows the system in play and that it is enforced by the game.

    To answer the question of this post, I would leave any group that is conducting unfair looting tactics or I would advocate the removal of an individual who continued being greedy. 

     

     

     

    • 150 posts
    August 17, 2021 11:18 AM PDT

    @chenzeme Fair point. Even on less populated emulated servers, a bad reputation doesn't carry the same weight it once did, often only turning into a meme. A safeguard against ninja looting would go a long way towards decreasing the number of petitions. In EQ, pullers would simply drop group and solo the named mob wielding the rare item and then loot it for themself. But then, soloing in PRotF isn't going to be as straightforward. And anyway, this would be getting into a whole another discussion about loot being visible on NPCs.

    • 33 posts
    August 18, 2021 10:34 AM PDT

    Ok Gamers, firstly thank you for all the response and secondly i must apologize to you old timers here in the forums for posting something you might have seen and talked about before. Me being a pantheon baby with my 6 months here, i must confess that i havnt read many of the posts from before my arrival, so sorry veterans.

    Some of you suggests to try and talk about the problem before leaving the group and in the best of worlds that works. But the problem is, talking isnt enough. People also have to listen, and in my opinion, listening is a dwindling skill these days, more and more people are getting good at talking but fewer and fewer are good at listening. So talking to someone who isnt listening and knowing myself, id rather spare the quiet ones the impact of me blowing the top of my kettle in groupchat. Btw im not known for my skills in real life diplomacy, quite good at the boardgame though, back in the day that is. Just saying.

    When i wrote the post i didnt even think about people stealing a rare loot, only happened once in EQ1(was a monk btw) but i remember it now and it wasnt a pleasent experience. Personally i think the GM:s have to have a solution for the problem with people stealing and i hope that the community can deal with people ninjalooting everything, without involving the GM:s.

    What punishment the thieves get, i leave to the GM:s to decide, its their creation after all.

    And to all you Ladies and Gentlemen who promotes NBG : Lets group soon!

    • 520 posts
    August 19, 2021 9:51 AM PDT

    Good exp flow is usually enough for me to not stress about the drop - one day I may be the slowest looter while the other I may be the fastest. Saying that in my expirience it's always good to talk things out while starting/joining a party -  to avoid any problems later on - whether loot should go to the leader which will split it at the end by their own judgement OR party members have priority on  their class specific gear OR is everything free for the taking - and so on. Also an option is to add (perhaps set in party menu) the ability to roll each loot and let the Lady Luck decide.

    • 134 posts
    August 19, 2021 12:49 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    My personal belief is that bringing the subject up in group chat, and asking for a fair compromise, is the right first step. An important aspect of that is that one or more of the group may feel the way I do but not want to cause a fuss. If I just leave, then I give a bad impression about myself to that person(s).

    THEN yes, if I can't reach a compromise that works for us all, I'll make the same choice as the OP and leave the group. The point of this game - for me - is to make friends and have fun. XP, Loot, Levels, etc. are all just the vehicle to accomplish that.

     

    bigdogchris said:

    As long as there is coin split and people are sharing looting sellables then I think it's fine. If someone is hoarding looting then I will call them out.

     

    I've finally put my finger on why Open/Free-for-all loot bothers me so much. It's because it is a system that PROMOTES confrontation and harrassment, and then hides behind "social interaction."

    Is someone looting all the vendor trash? You have to ask them to stop. Do they keep doing it? You gotta keep bringing it up, to the annoyance of your other group members. The ninja finally responds "loot faster," but you're the tank and you can't stop tanking to pick up the loot before they do. So it escalates from there. Now we've created a negative experience for the whole group.

    A NBG system doesn't fully fix this (unless you make vendor trash "greed only") but it does severely mitigate the issue.

    But now we get to the crux of the issue. What happens when the ninja takes something actually good? The rare drop off a named? "Reputation matters" is the tepid reply we often get. If you ninja loot, you'll get a bad reputation. But this nebulous "reputation" doesn't work like factions in game. It is a mystical entity that exists only in the minds of players. So if you get loot stolen from you, the intended method for dealing with the perpetrators is to... start a hate campaign.

    What? How does this jive with "Community Matters"? I have to jump onto a soap box in town square and rant about how xXx_SixDemonNine_xXx stole the Shield of Blocking from our group last night? That has literally never gone down well for anyone. The only reputation that will take a hit is mine for doing something so ridiculous and toxic. "Don't group with him! He'll steal all your loot!" is the same energy as handing out religious pamphlets on the street corner. At best I MIGHT be able to convince my guild. The ones who are online at the time.

    That is of course, something else that is important. Let's say I manage to influence people I speak to. How many is that? Of everyone on the server, it's only going to be the ones who are online, who are in the channel or channels I'm speaking in and who are actually paying attention to the chat. A fraction, of a fraction, of a fraction.

    The collective shrug we get from developers on this topic is telling. They believe the negative "social interaction" is important. Or they don't think it's a big deal. And in the end, a single event like that, for digital loot in one of many MMOs we will play, is not important. But if it's built into the system then it will happen over and over again. Negative experiences pile up.