Forums » Crafting

End game crafting content

    • 1104 posts
    April 4, 2016 3:37 AM PDT

    Wanderica said:

    ...

    If it were no trade or guild bound, then a guild's dedicated crafters have an outlet to further their chosen playstyle.

    ...

    I think this is the correct way to give "raid equivalent" crafted gear a correct place in the economy. If every craftable material (that goes into raid equivalent gear) drops from raids/raid bosses and it was guild bound (or made the item guild bound), then the guild could craft raid equivalent/comparable gear to give to their raiders/prospective raiders.

    Obviously you would not give this top tier, very hard to craft gear to just anyone, they’d have to have expressed a certain amount of dedication to the guild, granted someone COULD "buy" their way into the guild just for the item (with the guilds consent to this for the money), but I'd think this is a LOT less likely than an actually dedicated guildy getting the item.

    I've always liked the idea of craftable gear being comparable to raid gear, if not better if it uses ultra rare drops (think sulfuras/thunderfury (LOL), to a lesser extent the Onyxia scale cloak when Ragnaros was almost impossible and everyone needed every bit of fire resist :P).

     

    Rachael

     


    This post was edited by Rachael at April 4, 2016 3:40 AM PDT
    • 580 posts
    April 4, 2016 9:18 AM PDT

    Korocus said:

    Absolutely completely and adamantly disagree talk about making a raid a farm. Raid gear should never be tradable, you will have max level players rolling on items that they can not use strictly for profit or for an alt character/different account While players who actualy can use a need the gear are left empty handed. Why raid, I'll just sit back and farm mobs buy in game currency on line and buy the raid gear then I will have the best gear and will have only spent a few $$ real mone. Being able to trade raid gear is the worst idea possible. You will have ninja looters as well. There is absolutely no reason to trade raid gear it helps keeping people coming back to the raids, you didn't get the drop you wanted this run well we will try on the next. As for crafed gear as good as raid gear ok sure as long as the materials needed to craft item drops of raid bosses that the raid gear drops off and as for the guild crafting suggestion, again I disagree. A crafter is on his own sure the guild or players can donate if they want but they should be able to do it at their leisure. So having to craft an item in a raid or dungeon? No players spend hours upon hours working their crafting then the spend hours on hours getting ready to raid and raiding. If they have the materials they should be able to go to a forge/loom or what ever they need and creat the item. Sure have have them have to travel to a spec city to craft the item but they should be able to access it on their own so if they want they can have the item for the raid basically because if they have to run the raid/dungeon to get the materials why are they being punished by having to run it again to craft an item they have already earned the right to poses? Crafting should be hard time consuming fun and rewarding not a punishment. 

    If your guild would allow that to happen then you should be looking for a new guild. Saying gear shouldn't be tradable because the guild leader is a moron is not a good argument. Everything in this statement seems like it is from a PUG raid PoV which will not be the case for a long time and even then it will happen with any system. Having gear bound would simply result in what you see today, 'LFM for X raid! Y item on reserve!'. If a guild is running a raid and no one there needs the drop then they can bank it maybe for someone who wasn't on that night or for an alt that they use in the raids a lot. Or they could sell it to earn money for the guild to supply raid materials, potions/food/other gear upgrades for key people. There are a ton of reasons the gear should be tradable, fearing ninja looters isn't one of them. 

    Who said anything about crafters having to craft in a raid? My statement was that if it was possible then the materials needed to be from the same raid and they should be tradable. Why? So that crafters don't decide they want to raid to get mats then ninja quit the guild with all the materials that guild farmed for weeks/months. Those materials can be given out when people want to craft things and have the mats to do so. There is no punishment involved with it.

    • 580 posts
    April 4, 2016 9:24 AM PDT

    Korocus said:

    There are some mojor flaws with this first off if only one or 2 playears can make said awesome gear and it can be sold they will be charging a fortune for the gear which will promote gold sellers. Secondly if ypu have gear that is only good for one raid then your going to be packing around 5-10 sets of gear all the time either on your person or sitting in your bank. not to many people want to spend the entire game trying to get all the gear for all the raid areas because basically you'll have to raid end game raids continuously to even hope to get some pieces. Anther problem is if only A few people will get said drop what's the use of having a crafting profession if it's going to take you years to get the drop and by then youl be on the third expansion and the item will no longer be viable. Quality crafted gear ineeds to be BoP period if other players want it they can pick up crafting and make the item or just stick to raid gear. If done right the high quality crafted gear mats would drop from high level raids to so the crafter would still have to know their stuff in raids to be there to get the items. Making things hard is a challenge making things near impossible ruins that aspect of the game. I want crafting to be fun enjoyable and rewarding not frustrating and annoying. There needs to be some good non BoP crafted gear as well but that should only be good enough to get you going on high level raiding. Make it to easy every one will have the gear make it to difficult few will craft make it un rewarding annoying and frustrating and fewwer still will even partake in crafting so there is a fine line and I guarantee some people won't be happy with what ends up being the crafting trade no matter what is in the game. 

    That's what you call a flaw? Hate to tell you but it doesn't matter if this is in game or not, people always find ways to make tons of money and there will always be those who use gaming as a way to pay for things. It's in every single mmo. The difference here is that this would take a huge investment. Not only would they need to do an epic questline to be able to craft it but it would take weeks if not months to get the mats to do so. So yea it should cost a fortune because of the invested time. The 'artifacts' purposed would be some of the most difficult things to obtain in the game. If that person opts to sell it rather than use it then that's their choice. 

    Although Brad's already stated that they plan to keep craft and dropped stuff seperate to avoid one being better than the other. 

    • 38 posts
    April 4, 2016 11:50 PM PDT

    Enitzu said:

    That's what you call a flaw? Hate to tell you but it doesn't matter if this is in game or not, people always find ways to make tons of money and there will always be those who use gaming as a way to pay for things. It's in every single mmo. The difference here is that this would take a huge investment. Not only would they need to do an epic questline to be able to craft it but it would take weeks if not months to get the mats to do so. So yea it should cost a fortune because of the invested time. The 'artifacts' purposed would be some of the most difficult things to obtain in the game. If that person opts to sell it rather than use it then that's their choice. 

    Although Brad's already stated that they plan to keep craft and dropped stuff seperate to avoid one being better than the other. 

     

    Not sure if u quite got what he was saying.

    He wasn't really referring to the part that the crafter could make good gold with it, but rather the part, that the ones that are going to buy the mega expensive gear off from crafters will get their gold from gold sellers and therefore a system that takes mega expensive things into account, promotes passively an increase of gold sellers, because people are in high demand of gold, they could not get themselves if not playing 24/7

    Making it so more people can craft the artifact lets say 100 (which is still mega low) will do some changes on the market and the crafters to vary the prices 

    • 44 posts
    April 8, 2016 10:12 AM PDT

    Lagencie said:

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

    You have to completed the raid for the armor to have the same stats as the raid armor..... Only if you have done the raid will you get the full stats.

     

     

    • 580 posts
    April 8, 2016 2:02 PM PDT

    Lagencie said:

    Enitzu said:

    That's what you call a flaw? Hate to tell you but it doesn't matter if this is in game or not, people always find ways to make tons of money and there will always be those who use gaming as a way to pay for things. It's in every single mmo. The difference here is that this would take a huge investment. Not only would they need to do an epic questline to be able to craft it but it would take weeks if not months to get the mats to do so. So yea it should cost a fortune because of the invested time. The 'artifacts' purposed would be some of the most difficult things to obtain in the game. If that person opts to sell it rather than use it then that's their choice. 

    Although Brad's already stated that they plan to keep craft and dropped stuff seperate to avoid one being better than the other. 

     

    Not sure if u quite got what he was saying.

    He wasn't really referring to the part that the crafter could make good gold with it, but rather the part, that the ones that are going to buy the mega expensive gear off from crafters will get their gold from gold sellers and therefore a system that takes mega expensive things into account, promotes passively an increase of gold sellers, because people are in high demand of gold, they could not get themselves if not playing 24/7

    Making it so more people can craft the artifact lets say 100 (which is still mega low) will do some changes on the market and the crafters to vary the prices 

    Well the way I am understanding the suggestion is that anyone could do the artifact questline so long as they invested the time in the craft and did the quest. So there would be no limit on who could have it. The limit would come from the lack of materials to craft them. Needing a raid to obtain the materials and having them on a limited spawn rate or very low drop chances is what will drive the price up. Not from a lack of people with the ability to create the item.

    There really is no way around it being super expensive when we are talking about very limited/exclusive items. It's like the Pre-nerf CoS, before the nerf it wasn't worth that much. After the nerf the price tripled easily. Anything with a low quanitity automatically becomes rare and expensive. That still doesn't change gold buyers or sellers. Some people want to take the easy way to do things and there really isn't a way to stop it from happening without gutting the games fundamentals. To stop gold selling you would literally have to make everything No Trade/No drop and not allow any type of trading in game. Kind of takes away from the social aspect of the game tenets.

    • 580 posts
    April 8, 2016 2:11 PM PDT

    Lagencie said:

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

    What exactly are they 'winning'? How can you say pay to win when it's a pve game. They aren't beating you in anything. If that's the case then everyone here needs to petition so we can get the item bonuses from our pledges removed because why should we have in game advantages over someone starting new? It's the same thing.

    Gold sellers will be around. Some will buy it. Hopefully VR bans them all consistantly. I don't like it and I don't think it's right. But having raid stuff not be tradable isn't an answer to counter it. That's a weak fix. I would rather be able to have my tanks pass down old gear so I can keep them all geared rather than just lose the piece. I'd rather be able to run old raids with a smaller team to farm up gear for our alts/progenys or to sell for funds be it ours or guilds. I'd rather have options than be told 'nah gold sellers too stronk so we stopped it' because newsflash, making raid gear no trade won't stop gold sellers in the slightest. Don't believe me go take a look at every other mmo on the market. All of their raid gear is no trade yet gold sellers are rampant in every single one of them

    Edit - If you are reffering to twinks being too strong low lvl then that's fine. Add level requirements or stat requirements to use the gear. But again, making things no trade will not help solve any of these issues. 


    This post was edited by Enitzu at April 8, 2016 2:13 PM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 8755 posts
    April 8, 2016 7:18 PM PDT

    Enitzu said:

    Lagencie said:

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

    What exactly are they 'winning'? How can you say pay to win when it's a pve game. They aren't beating you in anything. If that's the case then everyone here needs to petition so we can get the item bonuses from our pledges removed because why should we have in game advantages over someone starting new? It's the same thing.

    Gold sellers will be around. Some will buy it. Hopefully VR bans them all consistantly. I don't like it and I don't think it's right. But having raid stuff not be tradable isn't an answer to counter it. That's a weak fix. I would rather be able to have my tanks pass down old gear so I can keep them all geared rather than just lose the piece. I'd rather be able to run old raids with a smaller team to farm up gear for our alts/progenys or to sell for funds be it ours or guilds. I'd rather have options than be told 'nah gold sellers too stronk so we stopped it' because newsflash, making raid gear no trade won't stop gold sellers in the slightest. Don't believe me go take a look at every other mmo on the market. All of their raid gear is no trade yet gold sellers are rampant in every single one of them

    Edit - If you are reffering to twinks being too strong low lvl then that's fine. Add level requirements or stat requirements to use the gear. But again, making things no trade will not help solve any of these issues. 

    I just wanted to point out quickly that there are no item bonuses from pledges Enitzu, they are just cosmetic/fluff items that will have an "effect" or unique look, just wanted to clear that up quickly as we have stated this in the past and I don't want any conversations breaking out over misinformation :)

    • 38 posts
    April 9, 2016 4:01 PM PDT

    I've thought about this for some time now, and wanted to give an opinion on the matter.

    People will always find a way to exploit a market to their advantage. It's going to happen and I'm sure the VR Team will do their best to promote a stable and fairly balanced economy.

    When it comes to crafting and items, I would advise that components for crafting raid-equivalent items and higher-end items should be No Trade for the most part. I think by doing this it's keeping the economy honest and balanced. People should be rewarded for their hard work and efforts amongst eachother, which is the spirit of Pantheon. People working together to accomplish amazing things. I do think that there should be common droppable components and maybe even rare components from named NPC's. Also, incorporating decent equipment that can be crafted would be ideal that people can bargain for to upgrade their armor/weapons. I always disliked the idea of an auction house, I felt that it pulls away from socializing and communication between people, and lessens the experience of a game economy. You just click around in a GUI and get what you need from the mail, I think it's lame...If some of you (probably younger) haven't experienced older games like Vanguard or EQ, it was so much better buying items from players directly and building relationships that way, when the Bazaar came along I didn't like it much either, but that's the direction they chose.

    Some people play MMORPG's solely as traders and look for the economical gameplay to spend their time. I would imagine that by removing trade automation in a game it forces people to interact more, which down the road is more beneficial and less inflating in a market.

    Hope at least some people agree with this mindset. :D

     

    • 44 posts
    April 10, 2016 1:57 PM PDT

    Steelear said:

    I've thought about this for some time now, and wanted to give an opinion on the matter.

    People will always find a way to exploit a market to their advantage. It's going to happen and I'm sure the VR Team will do their best to promote a stable and fairly balanced economy.

    When it comes to crafting and items, I would advise that components for crafting raid-equivalent items and higher-end items should be No Trade for the most part. I think by doing this it's keeping the economy honest and balanced. People should be rewarded for their hard work and efforts amongst eachother, which is the spirit of Pantheon. People working together to accomplish amazing things. I do think that there should be common droppable components and maybe even rare components from named NPC's. Also, incorporating decent equipment that can be crafted would be ideal that people can bargain for to upgrade their armor/weapons. I always disliked the idea of an auction house, I felt that it pulls away from socializing and communication between people, and lessens the experience of a game economy. You just click around in a GUI and get what you need from the mail, I think it's lame...If some of you (probably younger) haven't experienced older games like Vanguard or EQ, it was so much better buying items from players directly and building relationships that way, when the Bazaar came along I didn't like it much either, but that's the direction they chose.

    Some people play MMORPG's solely as traders and look for the economical gameplay to spend their time. I would imagine that by removing trade automation in a game it forces people to interact more, which down the road is more beneficial and less inflating in a market.

    Hope at least some people agree with this mindset. :D

     

    The problem with this type of system is that only the top raiding guilds with be able to get these item to use in crafting. So unless a crafter wants to be a full time raider then he/she will not have access to the higher end crafting items. Where if the items are tradable you keep crafter able to do what they want and the player able to get items that can help the game be more enjoyable

    Add this to having the item crafted linked to the raid from where the items is from then you keep players want to do all the content and keep crafters need in the game

     

     

    • 580 posts
    April 11, 2016 1:17 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Enitzu said:

    Lagencie said:

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

    What exactly are they 'winning'? How can you say pay to win when it's a pve game. They aren't beating you in anything. If that's the case then everyone here needs to petition so we can get the item bonuses from our pledges removed because why should we have in game advantages over someone starting new? It's the same thing.

    Gold sellers will be around. Some will buy it. Hopefully VR bans them all consistantly. I don't like it and I don't think it's right. But having raid stuff not be tradable isn't an answer to counter it. That's a weak fix. I would rather be able to have my tanks pass down old gear so I can keep them all geared rather than just lose the piece. I'd rather be able to run old raids with a smaller team to farm up gear for our alts/progenys or to sell for funds be it ours or guilds. I'd rather have options than be told 'nah gold sellers too stronk so we stopped it' because newsflash, making raid gear no trade won't stop gold sellers in the slightest. Don't believe me go take a look at every other mmo on the market. All of their raid gear is no trade yet gold sellers are rampant in every single one of them

    Edit - If you are reffering to twinks being too strong low lvl then that's fine. Add level requirements or stat requirements to use the gear. But again, making things no trade will not help solve any of these issues. 

    I just wanted to point out quickly that there are no item bonuses from pledges Enitzu, they are just cosmetic/fluff items that will have an "effect" or unique look, just wanted to clear that up quickly as we have stated this in the past and I don't want any conversations breaking out over misinformation :)

    Appreciate the correction Kils. I honestly never saw that. 

    But the point still stands :D We have things that others won't be able to obtain which some could consider as 'P2W'. The definition of that term has been so widely debated that it honestly has lost it's meaning to me. If you can't buy top end raid gear from the company that makes the game then it isn't really P2W. Or some type of invulnerability, that would be p2w. The fact that you can buy money from an outside source doesn't equal P2W. It equals out to breaking the EULA and it's not something we should base a decision on. 

    • 38 posts
    April 11, 2016 1:51 PM PDT
    Pay to win is a monetary exchange for an advantage in game whether that be statistical or financial. The items given for pledging are cosmetic items that will have no influence on the game and character performance except aesthetically.
    • Moderator
    • 8755 posts
    April 11, 2016 3:23 PM PDT

    Enitzu said:

    Kilsin said:

    Enitzu said:

    Lagencie said:

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

    What exactly are they 'winning'? How can you say pay to win when it's a pve game. They aren't beating you in anything. If that's the case then everyone here needs to petition so we can get the item bonuses from our pledges removed because why should we have in game advantages over someone starting new? It's the same thing.

    Gold sellers will be around. Some will buy it. Hopefully VR bans them all consistantly. I don't like it and I don't think it's right. But having raid stuff not be tradable isn't an answer to counter it. That's a weak fix. I would rather be able to have my tanks pass down old gear so I can keep them all geared rather than just lose the piece. I'd rather be able to run old raids with a smaller team to farm up gear for our alts/progenys or to sell for funds be it ours or guilds. I'd rather have options than be told 'nah gold sellers too stronk so we stopped it' because newsflash, making raid gear no trade won't stop gold sellers in the slightest. Don't believe me go take a look at every other mmo on the market. All of their raid gear is no trade yet gold sellers are rampant in every single one of them

    Edit - If you are reffering to twinks being too strong low lvl then that's fine. Add level requirements or stat requirements to use the gear. But again, making things no trade will not help solve any of these issues. 

    I just wanted to point out quickly that there are no item bonuses from pledges Enitzu, they are just cosmetic/fluff items that will have an "effect" or unique look, just wanted to clear that up quickly as we have stated this in the past and I don't want any conversations breaking out over misinformation :)

    Appreciate the correction Kils. I honestly never saw that. 

    But the point still stands :D We have things that others won't be able to obtain which some could consider as 'P2W'. The definition of that term has been so widely debated that it honestly has lost it's meaning to me. If you can't buy top end raid gear from the company that makes the game then it isn't really P2W. Or some type of invulnerability, that would be p2w. The fact that you can buy money from an outside source doesn't equal P2W. It equals out to breaking the EULA and it's not something we should base a decision on. 

    Paying to win is paying for an advantage over another player, paying money to earn in an instant what others work hard for in game etc. That is not possible with Pantheon and we have stated that very clearly many times, we removed our store and have stated that all items have no stats, no advantage and are just cosmetic, just because you can get a fluff ring in a pledge does not make it pay to win man, not everyone can have everything in life and these rewards are our way of saying thank you for helping to support us while we create Pantheon, they give no advantage over anyone and cannot be deemed pay to win by any means!

    • 38 posts
    April 12, 2016 1:26 AM PDT
    ^ this! But dammit Kils stop ruining my dreams of being able to buy my friends rings of fluff! Lol
    • Moderator
    • 8755 posts
    April 12, 2016 6:53 AM PDT

    VattoLoco said: ^ this! But dammit Kils stop ruining my dreams of being able to buy my friends rings of fluff! Lol

    Haha! ;)

    • 580 posts
    April 12, 2016 9:22 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Enitzu said:

    Kilsin said:

    Enitzu said:

    Lagencie said:

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

    What exactly are they 'winning'? How can you say pay to win when it's a pve game. They aren't beating you in anything. If that's the case then everyone here needs to petition so we can get the item bonuses from our pledges removed because why should we have in game advantages over someone starting new? It's the same thing.

    Gold sellers will be around. Some will buy it. Hopefully VR bans them all consistantly. I don't like it and I don't think it's right. But having raid stuff not be tradable isn't an answer to counter it. That's a weak fix. I would rather be able to have my tanks pass down old gear so I can keep them all geared rather than just lose the piece. I'd rather be able to run old raids with a smaller team to farm up gear for our alts/progenys or to sell for funds be it ours or guilds. I'd rather have options than be told 'nah gold sellers too stronk so we stopped it' because newsflash, making raid gear no trade won't stop gold sellers in the slightest. Don't believe me go take a look at every other mmo on the market. All of their raid gear is no trade yet gold sellers are rampant in every single one of them

    Edit - If you are reffering to twinks being too strong low lvl then that's fine. Add level requirements or stat requirements to use the gear. But again, making things no trade will not help solve any of these issues. 

    I just wanted to point out quickly that there are no item bonuses from pledges Enitzu, they are just cosmetic/fluff items that will have an "effect" or unique look, just wanted to clear that up quickly as we have stated this in the past and I don't want any conversations breaking out over misinformation :)

    Appreciate the correction Kils. I honestly never saw that. 

    But the point still stands :D We have things that others won't be able to obtain which some could consider as 'P2W'. The definition of that term has been so widely debated that it honestly has lost it's meaning to me. If you can't buy top end raid gear from the company that makes the game then it isn't really P2W. Or some type of invulnerability, that would be p2w. The fact that you can buy money from an outside source doesn't equal P2W. It equals out to breaking the EULA and it's not something we should base a decision on. 

    Paying to win is paying for an advantage over another player, paying money to earn in an instant what others work hard for in game etc. That is not possible with Pantheon and we have stated that very clearly many times, we removed our store and have stated that all items have no stats, no advantage and are just cosmetic, just because you can get a fluff ring in a pledge does not make it pay to win man, not everyone can have everything in life and these rewards are our way of saying thank you for helping to support us while we create Pantheon, they give no advantage over anyone and cannot be deemed pay to win by any means!

    Kils that's exactly my point though! I don't take it as p2w. Never did. But some people do because it's something they can't get, well right now they can but in the future they won't be able to. The definition of p2w changes from person to person and my whole point was that claiming the illegal buying and selling of in game currency can not be used as a definition of p2w which is what his argument was about. He is saying items should be no trade because it would make the game p2w if raid stuff is tradable due to gold sellers. I only used the bonus items we get as an example of what some people misconstrue as p2w

    • 997 posts
    April 12, 2016 12:31 PM PDT

    xtnpd said:

    This is from distant memory, so forgive the innacuracies.

    Way back in WOW, there was a quest series to forge Dark Iron equipment.  Dark iron was mineable and it dropped off mobs in, what was then, the highest level dungeon.  It was needed for fire resistance to fight the raid encounters.  You needed to figure out how to beat the dungeon first, then you had to figure out how to get to the trade-skill quest-giver, then you needed to work faction to obtain the recipes, then you had to farm the materials. 

    I loved living inside Blackrock Mountain.  It was a huge dungeon and it took hours and hours to complete.  The quest for Black Iron gear was something the whole guild undertook, and it was celebrated each time a new piece of gear got created.

    I think a return of this type of epic crafting is overdue.

    I remember this.  IT wasn't easy to do back then.  It took a group of people sometimes to get through the mobs.  Still it was in fact a great group effort.  I think this is also needed!

     

    Those were good times

    Ox

    • 997 posts
    April 12, 2016 12:34 PM PDT

    CelevinMoongleam said:

    I love the idea of going to the heart of Mordor to craft something in the fires of Mount Doom.  Crafters and adventurers would have to work together to accomplish the task.

     

    Edit: typo

    From playing LoTRO for some time that is an awsome idea.  Fight to the inch of death to get to a forge or site and have a team hold the ground.  I can totally see it.

    Ox

    • Moderator
    • 8755 posts
    April 12, 2016 6:47 PM PDT

    Enitzu said:

    Kilsin said:

    Enitzu said:

    Kilsin said:

    Enitzu said:

    Lagencie said:

    Tradeable Raid Gear goes just in 1 direction ... and this is PAY TO WIN ... There will be hundreds of Ingame Item-Seller selling every single Piece of Raid Gear ... So you just "Buy in" to the game with lets say 500$ and have a fully geared new char, with 0 experience

     

    SO DEFINITELY NOOOOO

    What exactly are they 'winning'? How can you say pay to win when it's a pve game. They aren't beating you in anything. If that's the case then everyone here needs to petition so we can get the item bonuses from our pledges removed because why should we have in game advantages over someone starting new? It's the same thing.

    Gold sellers will be around. Some will buy it. Hopefully VR bans them all consistantly. I don't like it and I don't think it's right. But having raid stuff not be tradable isn't an answer to counter it. That's a weak fix. I would rather be able to have my tanks pass down old gear so I can keep them all geared rather than just lose the piece. I'd rather be able to run old raids with a smaller team to farm up gear for our alts/progenys or to sell for funds be it ours or guilds. I'd rather have options than be told 'nah gold sellers too stronk so we stopped it' because newsflash, making raid gear no trade won't stop gold sellers in the slightest. Don't believe me go take a look at every other mmo on the market. All of their raid gear is no trade yet gold sellers are rampant in every single one of them

    Edit - If you are reffering to twinks being too strong low lvl then that's fine. Add level requirements or stat requirements to use the gear. But again, making things no trade will not help solve any of these issues. 

    I just wanted to point out quickly that there are no item bonuses from pledges Enitzu, they are just cosmetic/fluff items that will have an "effect" or unique look, just wanted to clear that up quickly as we have stated this in the past and I don't want any conversations breaking out over misinformation :)

    Appreciate the correction Kils. I honestly never saw that. 

    But the point still stands :D We have things that others won't be able to obtain which some could consider as 'P2W'. The definition of that term has been so widely debated that it honestly has lost it's meaning to me. If you can't buy top end raid gear from the company that makes the game then it isn't really P2W. Or some type of invulnerability, that would be p2w. The fact that you can buy money from an outside source doesn't equal P2W. It equals out to breaking the EULA and it's not something we should base a decision on. 

    Paying to win is paying for an advantage over another player, paying money to earn in an instant what others work hard for in game etc. That is not possible with Pantheon and we have stated that very clearly many times, we removed our store and have stated that all items have no stats, no advantage and are just cosmetic, just because you can get a fluff ring in a pledge does not make it pay to win man, not everyone can have everything in life and these rewards are our way of saying thank you for helping to support us while we create Pantheon, they give no advantage over anyone and cannot be deemed pay to win by any means!

    Kils that's exactly my point though! I don't take it as p2w. Never did. But some people do because it's something they can't get, well right now they can but in the future they won't be able to. The definition of p2w changes from person to person and my whole point was that claiming the illegal buying and selling of in game currency can not be used as a definition of p2w which is what his argument was about. He is saying items should be no trade because it would make the game p2w if raid stuff is tradable due to gold sellers. I only used the bonus items we get as an example of what some people misconstrue as p2w

    Yeah, I understand what you mean and that will be up to the person man, we can't please everyone and some will think they are hard done by and missed out on some cosmetic items but it's just tough for them, life isn't always equal or fair and early supporters get rewarded with a cosmetic item that provides no benefit while late comers don't.

    As for trading raid items, I am personally against it as I believe the hard work, teamwork, coordination, skill and effort that goes into taking down tough raid content should be only locked to that mob until given to a worthy raid member(s) and it should be bind on equip (BoE), all other drops I believe should be free to trade.

    As for crafting, I am a huge crafter and would love to see crafting made relevant by allowing crafters to create weapons, armour and jewellery for raiders to help them succeed with different resistances, stat bonuses etc. making raiders want to work with crafters to help them gather tough to get resources in order for them to make the gear they need to raid some of the tougher content but ultimately I believe raid gear should always be slightly better than crafted due to risk vs reward and all the teamwork, cooperation, organisation, coordination and challenge that goes into achieving a raid kill with 20+ people vs 1 person crafting from the safety of a workbench, but I would like to see both work well together and to see crafters filling the level and content gaps for adventurers would be awesome :)

    That is my personal opinion as a Guild Leader, Raid Leader, Raider, Crafter and Adventure! ;)

    • 241 posts
    April 13, 2016 8:29 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    "ultimately I believe raid gear should always be slightly better than crafted due to risk vs reward and all the teamwork, cooperation, organisation, coordination and challenge that goes into achieving a raid kill with 20+ people vs 1 person crafting from the safety of a workbench"

    "That is my personal opinion as a Guild Leader, Raid Leader, Raider, Crafter and Adventure! ;)"

    Honestly, I haven’t read most of what this post has in it as it's been an ongoing argument ad infinitum for so long my eyes just sort of glaze over, but I did read what you've written here Kils, and I tend to be most opened minded about... well, everything, but in this case, I have to say I'm a little shocked and confused. For stating that you are such a 'huge' crafter, you seem to have a rather narrow view on actual crafting with this statement..?

    I'm not trying to make an argument against the value of raid gear to craft gear here, it's not really comparable in my mind, they are two different skill sets, but no less valuable.

    It takes a MVP type of player to 'git gud' enough to craft at such a high level, and a lot of the time takes friends or a guild to help. So your statement comparing the two the way you do is sort of skewed or more 'dismissing of the effort' in my view...

    I think the two (raid gear to crafted) really need to be viewed separately in order to have a chance of any kind in being implemented well...but, just my two cents :) I'll just chalk it up as a bad night down under and go on a walk about...

     


    This post was edited by Nuemcy at April 13, 2016 9:00 AM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 8755 posts
    April 13, 2016 3:18 PM PDT

    Nuemcy said:

    Kilsin said:

    "ultimately I believe raid gear should always be slightly better than crafted due to risk vs reward and all the teamwork, cooperation, organisation, coordination and challenge that goes into achieving a raid kill with 20+ people vs 1 person crafting from the safety of a workbench"

    "That is my personal opinion as a Guild Leader, Raid Leader, Raider, Crafter and Adventure! ;)"

    Honestly, I haven’t read most of what this post has in it as it's been an ongoing argument ad infinitum for so long my eyes just sort of glaze over, but I did read what you've written here Kils, and I tend to be most opened minded about... well, everything, but in this case, I have to say I'm a little shocked and confused. For stating that you are such a 'huge' crafter, you seem to have a rather narrow view on actual crafting with this statement..?

    I'm not trying to make an argument against the value of raid gear to craft gear here, it's not really comparable in my mind, they are two different skill sets, but no less valuable.

    It takes a MVP type of player to 'git gud' enough to craft at such a high level, and a lot of the time takes friends or a guild to help. So your statement comparing the two the way you do is sort of skewed or more 'dismissing of the effort' in my view...

    I think the two (raid gear to crafted) really need to be viewed separately in order to have a chance of any kind in being implemented well...but, just my two cents :) I'll just chalk it up as a bad night down under and go on a walk about...

     

    To clarify, I was referring to VG, 24 people all coming together to take down some of the toughest mobs in game that not all guilds could take down vs 1 crafter from the safety of their bench, the gear dropped/created should not be equal but to offer a nice balanced integration of the two by making crafted gear as close as it can be without being equal to the toughest items is a very reasonable trade-off in my opinion.

    As much as I love crafting, I can't expect to sit at the safety of my workbench and create raid equivalent gear while 24 players hack, slash, cooperate and strategies their way down into the depths of a dangerous dungeon for the same item equivalent, but by using materials that they bring back to the surface and working with others I would expect to be able to help enhance those items and create items almost as good as the ones they find.

    Other than that crafting should be separate, but I am also thinking along the lines of VG crafting, so hopefully this helped clear things up :)

    • 38 posts
    April 14, 2016 2:44 AM PDT
    @Kilsin Will there be something in place, for say trading the crafting mat to someone else for a combine, to protect both parties in the transaction. I know in many games there have been issues with people saying they will do a combine, get traded the mats and then log out. Essentially will there be something in place to prevent "stealing" or is it just going to come down to this person's reputation is tarnished and the person that traded is just out the money? I know I would be highly hesitant doing this with raid mats that have dropped if not the case.
    • Moderator
    • 8755 posts
    April 14, 2016 3:04 AM PDT

    VattoLoco said: @Kilsin Will there be something in place, for say trading the crafting mat to someone else for a combine, to protect both parties in the transaction. I know in many games there have been issues with people saying they will do a combine, get traded the mats and then log out. Essentially will there be something in place to prevent "stealing" or is it just going to come down to this person's reputation is tarnished and the person that traded is just out the money? I know I would be highly hesitant doing this with raid mats that have dropped if not the case.

    Not that I am aware of Vatto, it will most likely come down to being careful and only trading those items with people you know and/or trust, this is why reputations will be very important in Pantheon, a great crafter will have a very good reputation for always coming through, giving great price offers, making quality items etc. so it will most likely be in the players hands to not fall for tricks and trade valuable items with people you don't know very well, such precautions like you take in real life :) 

    • 38 posts
    April 14, 2016 4:59 AM PDT
    Understood, as it should be
    • 95 posts
    April 23, 2016 1:47 PM PDT

    Narben4 said:

    i know this post is old but it seemed best placed for my recent thought bubble.

    I have been watching and reading (even participating) in the artifact conversation, and it got me interested in a crafting pathway for artifact type drops?  So go with me my mind is a scary place.

    So imagine that in order to be able to craft what are essentially current day artifact type items (you know, those things that fill future lore books) you need to go through a significantly difficult training /vocational process whereby you needed to unlock the required crafting secrets to utilise artifact type ingredients.  Imagine you needed to focus on crafting in such a way that it meant there may be occasion where doing the crafting quests or treking to a remote environment to reach the hidden master, were the primary function and raiding was secondary.  Perhaps the upshot to getting crafting to a position that meant you could craft end game raid type equipment meant this was your characters life and that guilds actually wanted these types of characters and would support them?

    The 'should there be only one artifact per server' conversation has made me think.  What if a certain mob, lets call him the Ubah Dragon of Death, spawned randomly throughout the year.  Lets say that in addition to the "Shield of the Ubah Dragon of Death" that will drop once a year (or whatever timeframe considered suitable for such a wonderful item), it was guaranteed to drop artifact quality scales/blood/bone (or other suitable crafting mat).  these mats (dependent on type) could be utilised by an Artifact trained crafter (note above comment regarding how difficult this should be) to create something so special guilds would seek it out.  I am not considering that if in the above example blood dropped from a mob that it would be used to only create the "Sword of ubahness infused with blood of the Ubah Dragon of Death".  I am considering that at such high level crafters could utilise the blood to create an item of signifigance for whoever may obtain it?  Essentially, it would be some form of crafted enhancement.  What this would mean across a server, based on spawn rate and death rate of said mob, you could (lets say monthly spawn and kill rate) have 12 items crafted that utilise the artifact type drop (noting that if there were drop variations, the available items of any type would be reduced).

    In addition, lets say that the Ubah Dragon of Death, dropped items that enahnced or mitigated fire type dmg, or that it was of fire elemental base.  Imagine crafters needed to pursue the ability to use the elemental based item specifically and that to use other elemnetal type items you would have to pursue additional paths.  Perhpas that in addition to an elemental base, crafters needed a beastiary understanding, that would allow them to utilise items from beastkin, dragonkin, giantkin etc...

    the time working through this for crafting characters would be consuming but in the end very worthwhile.

    To be able to - or should i say, to know these pathways exist would have meant you had attained some form of legendary status as a crafter and the pathway would open to you only after a certain point...(typing without clear direction here but i hope the point comes across).

    Wouldn't it be neat that in order to enfuse weapons/armour with life giving properties you would have had to have sacrificed yourself in order to obtain the relevant insight?

    or...perhaps i need a hobby and to get off the forums

    cheers

     

    Edit: typos

     

     

     

    Basically what he stated is align what I am thinking.