Some people do not like to be in charge of forming up a party. I completely understand and that is very fair. But for those that do take charge it is very nice to have a functional set of tools with which to form a party from nothing. I prefer being able to search all available people who have flagged themselves as "looking for group" and then pair that list down via criteria (level range, class, role, distance/area, ect). It is even better for me when I can inspect that character and if there is some kind of informative message tagged on their search profile ( For example, "Hey, I don't mind off-tank role.").
It is my opinion that in games like this, all parties that can be formed should be formed and formed as quickly and painlessly as possible. The challenge should come from the gameplay and the world, not from mustering your team.
Definitely anti-social. The idea of just showing up with a random group of people you never talk to and leave without saying goodbye is just depressing. If that's the kind of game a company wants, why not just make it solo friendly at that point? I like getting to know people in MMO's and knowing who the good players are and specifically looking out for them to be avialable to group up.
I thought about some sort of LFG tool with limits (e.g.I am totally against teleporting players to dungeons or allowing people to jiin from miles away).
But then most LFG tools without the above features tend to be underused and people just use shout as well / instead, and this actually is part of the social nature of the game - you see the same leaders shouting day after day and know which are good or bad leaders.
Therefore no LFG tool needed as it is extra build for no benefit.
I would say that they are convenient, but they are so convenient that they are harmful to the overall sense of community and socialization within a community.
I remember having to actively hunt and engage with people on my server to find a group. I remember the importance of trying to maintain a good reputation so you could get into groups.
I think that dungeon finders have made actively hunting and engaging with other people a passive experience. Then, with the addition of cross-server groups maintaining a good reputation and decent community standing isn't as important. The chances that you will ever group with the same people are slim. This provides more lee-way for instances of rude or abrasive behavior. All in all, I think that dungeon finders convert the community into an expendable resource that players take for granted.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Dungeon Finders - Convenient tools to meet up and run dungeons and raids with fellow community members or anti-social tools that kill the communities socialisation? What are your thoughts? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I think a lot of people are going to read into "Convenient tools" more than just a dungeon finder based on previous games. I'm completely against a tool that ports all players to a dungeon and the players can run through that dungeon without saying anything to each other. I've played that game and it's not fun. That really doesn't have to be what a dungeon finder has to be though. Travel time should matter and dungeon difficulty should greatly encourage communication.
A well thought out tool to connect players together to accomplish a quest or to assist forming a group for a dungeon to grind out some gear or experience is absolutely a good thing. I look forward to seeing this design in Pantheon.
I think that the inevitable evolution of the LFG "chat" channel is a well designed set of tools that allow people to find like minded individuals for dungeons, grinds, quests, whatever. It sure beats the mass scrolling channels you used to see. Obviously, as others have expressed concerns about, instant travel should be a no go.
Let's ignore the term "dungeon finder" and focus on what we want and don't want. Since the term has widely varying meanings to different players and from game to game. What are some of the features that we think of when we hear "dungeon finder"?
1. Automatic forming of groups. You queue in the DF and no one need do anything to form the group other than, usually, confirm that you still are interested when the DF has a full group ready to go.
This clearly is convenient. It supports one of the core goals of the game - encouraging grouping. It allows players to group up and accomplish something in less time thus allowing them to log-on and play more often. These are significant benefits that support core values of Pantheon. I say this because people here like to demonize group finder and treat it as an unmixed evil to a game like Pantheon. Such is simply not the case.
It clearly reduces social interaction greatly. While the benefit to other Pantheon values is significant the harm to one of the most major values is devastating. The consensus on the forums has been a resounding "no". I agree. We should have tools that let potential members and leaders contact each other and that show relevant considerations such as class and level. This suffices. Players should form groups - not algorythms.
2. Automatic teleport to the adventure area and then automatic teleport back after the adventure is completed.
The benefits are much the same as in point one. The time saved is much greater. This feature might reduce the block of time needed to actually run a useful game session down to the area of an hour even when everyone is not already in the same dungeon.
This clearly undercuts the goals of having a large world and slow travel.
I reluctantly feel the benefit to certain core values outweighs the harm to others but only under one condition. The teleport should only be to inside a dungeon. Leaving the dungeon or the group (other than a temporary disconnect) should return you to where you were. Thus you cannot use this feature to travel to new areas other than for the duration of one adventuring session inside one specific dungeon. Perhaps with the limitation that you must have already been inside the dungeon at least once. Analagous to the requirement in Vanguard that to teleport to a location you must have already gotten there the hard way. Perhaps with the additional limitation that you can only teleport to the start of the dungeon.
3. Forming a group based on preset parameters of gear levels, classes or other programmed considerations.
The benefits are to substitute computer judgment for group leader judgment in determining what classes and what level of gearing is desirable. It reduces risk and social interaction. The benefits do not support the core values of Pantheon. The disadvantages undercut them.
No.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Dungeon Finders - Convenient tools to meet up and run dungeons and raids with fellow community members or anti-social tools that kill the communities socialisation? What are your thoughts? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
It's anti-social in that the player needs to be put forth zero effort to actually meet people and make friends instead just using the tool to quickly get a group to get what they need then to bail immediately after.
If the tool auto-creates groups, its a way to buypass any issues with personal reputation. You never know with whom you'll be grouped because no conversation happens beforehand.
It's for lazy #%@&s who want as much as possible just given to them with as little effort as possible.
I'm all for an in-game tool where you can advertise LFM or LFG with a brief note about the purpose of the group but that's it. The players need to put forth the time and effort to actually talk with each other to form the group and to then work together to get to where they want to go.
IMO:
Agreed with Vandraad. I would also add that I wouldn't be against notification of LFG players nearby, within several hundred meters, as an optional toggle, if you weren't in a full group.
While it's true that a zone wide LFG flag was perfectly adequate in 1999, if zone sizes are actually going to be very large, having LFG flags with an optional range value has merit.
To be clear, just adding a distance sortable column on the in-game LFG/LFM interface is all that's necessary to provide that improvement.
If somenone is 10000 units away, while another is 14 units away, setting aside COTH or similar, the closer one might be more attractive.
Yeah, the ability to bring up a window and enable "LFG" and look for other players by level or class and see what zone they are in is totally acceptable. But you should still have to take the effort to form relationships and reach out to players and ask them to group up, setup travel, and go to the dungeon. It's called "Playing the game".
If we've reached a point where there are not enough people to support a game, that want to do more than just see numbers on the screen go up, then I need to give up on this genre.
I'd like to have a simple group finder like this:
The system should let me select the dungeon(s)/zone(s) where I'd like to go (and an additional choice for "Any"), and take note of my class and level. Once I'm ready, I can then click a button "Start looking for group" and thus change my status to LFG for the selected places.
I would then see an (auto-updating) list of matching players (who are of the same level range and interested in the same places). When clicking on a player in the list, a window should open to allow me to enter a short message (that could maybe preset in the options), and then send that invitation to the other player, who can then accept or decline with a simple button click. If they accept, they are automatically added to my group, and we both are removed from the LFG list, but the group leader (the one who initiated the invite) can still see the list of matching players to invite more.
I don't think a more automated system is necessary. Also, "auto teleport to dungeon" is not really a good idea for a game like Pantheon. But I think the above is the minium of what I'd expected of a "social" game in this day and age.
I'm cool with some sort of LFG tool, the biggest problem I've seen with the auto finder/teleport is when a group can kick a player for any reason or really no reason at all.
Then they simply need to re-flag the group and wait a little bit more for a replacement that they may just kick again if theres something else that sticks out.
Gods forgive me for saying "Hello" to the group.
Edit* How long before a game Tinders up their LFG tool?
I'm not that out of touch.
A dungeon finder is someone who needs help in a certain place, having scouted out the entrance before, and is asking in chat- general chat- for help if they dont have a bevy of friends list built up yet. The person asking is the "lead" sort of until the group gets assembled and they go to the dungeon. Travel. In the dungeon however the group dynamic may change depending on the challenges. The leader may not be the leader any more but now just someone responding after a particularly intense fight with "...I don''t know! it's supposed to be in some place where you can walk on clouds! Now I think that could be geysers? but we will know when we see-the-abomination." For which another may then say we need soandso to pull instead of thatotherguy and thisguy needs to tank instead of me to survive and another may say I think this tunnel will lead there. and yet another may say, thats smoke, not steam, and the new leader will say, who cares, lets go see. And the team does not accomplish the original leaders goal, does not see the abomination, but does see other things and get other interesting loots and wipes to a particularly nasty named that they had not seen or heard of before.
TL:dr I think LFG tools are important to address the familiarity players have with that concept. However I also think the player community will also have an influence, a more social influence a sort of "talk-out-loud" for lack of a better term, influence. I think LFG tools should be linked to Mentoring if that will be a thing. I think LFG tools should be more encouraged to be used, perhaps as an automatic pop-up? from levels 5 to 10? but less encouraged or force the player to select as an option to open LFG tool from 10 and up. My thinking is: 1-5 player learning their class, mostly solo. 5-10 Learning questing, exploring, learning limits of their class and therefore organically learning they need another and from that, efficiency and speed with more than another, faster endorphin feedback, successes come faster and quests get done, newbies get armor sets, they can survive a bite from a rat that used to leave them half dead previously. Considering the questionnaire that will be available- there will be available in general chat people with your same time limitations and play schedules, the more detailed info you voluntarily provide that questionnaire will allow acceptible wipes on a mission because the home team scored. From 10+ any time the LFG flag is put up, this should also alert all players interested in mentoring, this could also be a good way to recruit for guilds or simply expand friend list. I think by that time, level 10-15 one has enough friends on friends list or has been exposed to the community to understand a dungeon finder is not always necessary. If you don't know what to do, sometimes just showing up at a place gets something. I mean, you know you're in the right place if someone yells "Train!"
Clairification of wording/symantecs: Automatic Dungeon Finder = Bad. Automatic LFG identifier = Good
Here's my take on the differences-
If you just click some icon that automatically puts your character into a Queue with other players based on role and the game automatically assigns players to a random group and then designates a dungeon of appropriate level, THAT is bad for a game's social aspects. On the flip side of that same coin, having absolutely no mechanic to help players find other players that want to play together and relying on them to use their chat window (or use 3rd party forums or apps like Discord) is even worse for a game.
A healthy balance (in my opinion) would be a system that allows players to enter their level range, role(s) a note (i.e. teleports only - can rez until raid, etc), and maybe specified areas (due to faction or what have you) that they are willing to adventure in, and then that system places all players of the identified level into a SEPARATE window (that can only be viewed if LFG/LFM) that shows the player's information that they entered. The abuse that could come out of this system (which could be curtailed with community rules or maybe just stricter mechanics) would be things like people trying to use it as an auction platform or some other means to communicate other than LFG.
But to directly answer the OP - automatic "Dungeon" finders remove a LOT of social aspects of an MMO. A "group" finder system is essential to avoid burnout in a group-centric game (you will otherwise have players doing all that they can to solo or box accounts if finding groups is too cumbersome or time consuming - which also destroys the social aspect of an MMO).
add: The Everquest TLP servers have a great LFG system currently...
A GUI to aid with forming groups, I'm 100% for. A system where I queue up for a dungeon/group and I'm automatically assigned to that group, no.
A GUI system for tracking LFG isn't much different than just doing /who all cleric lfg just with it's own window. I don't see any issue with it.
FF14 party finder is a good example of what I like.
((FF14 party finder is a good example of what I like. ))
I tried FFXIV for a few months. Spouse and I hated it. You queued for a group, ran through a dungeon and left all without one word being said most of the time. Literally not one word though the entire run.
What did you like in the party finder? Is this a different tool from the dungeon finder that I remember doing exactly what you do not want?
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Dungeon Finders - Convenient tools to meet up and run dungeons and raids with fellow community members or anti-social tools that kill the communities socialisation? What are your thoughts? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I like talking and forming a group /ooc in a particular zone. It simple gets people to talk one another. Sure there LFG tools outthere to speed things up but whats the hurry enjoy time .....relax and have fun socializing. I know few people will disagree with me and thats fine. This is just my views on it.
I'd like to see a LFG/LFM tool. That could be fun. Dungeon grouper...no. I'd like to see something that focused around each town. Of course if there is a global chat channel there is that, and the lfg tool is unneeded. Frankly I'm hoping there is no global chat channel. If travel time is a thing, which it seems we all want then what is the point of global chat. Regional trading, crafting, lfg make a shout go out maybe 100 meters.
Vandraad said:It's anti-social in that the player needs to be put forth zero effort to actually meet people and make friends instead just using the tool to quickly get a group to get what they need then to bail immediately after.
If the tool auto-creates groups, its a way to buypass any issues with personal reputation. You never know with whom you'll be grouped because no conversation happens beforehand.
It's for lazy #%@&s who want as much as possible just given to them with as little effort as possible.
I'm all for an in-game tool where you can advertise LFM or LFG with a brief note about the purpose of the group but that's it. The players need to put forth the time and effort to actually talk with each other to form the group and to then work together to get to where they want to go.
In terms of a 'Dungeon Finder' rather than the various grouping tools already discussed in many previous threads over the years, I agree with Vandraad (except for the part I crossed out)
dorotea said:((FF14 party finder is a good example of what I like. ))
I tried FFXIV for a few months. Spouse and I hated it. You queued for a group, ran through a dungeon and left all without one word being said most of the time. Literally not one word though the entire run.
What did you like in the party finder? Is this a different tool from the dungeon finder that I remember doing exactly what you do not want?
That wasn't Party Finder. That was Dungeon Finder. Party Finder is a window that shows up and people can advertise a group. It helps you form the group but the group isn't "instant" ported into the dungeon and you can set requirements for joining the group or boot people.
Dungeon finder does seem to have multiple meanings. Let me clarify my position. Any group finder that automagically forms a party for players is in my opinion a negative influence on the game. It removes a social aspect of the game and cheapens the content into modular spammable chunks. It creates toxic behavior as players manipulate the party finding system (People gearing for a different role than their listed party role because they want the faster cue). It promotes the kind of selfish gameplay that can dismantle a games community.
A comprehensive ui interface for manually mustering parties is, in my opinion, a "must have" for a health party- based game.
While I have the same opinion as most people : Automatchmaking sucks and avaliable players list is good, there are some drawbacks in "UI listing" that are a bit prejudiciable :
You cannot sell yourself, you litteraly have no possibility to stand out from the crowd either by perseverance, humor, or anything, and if the community is "persuaded" that your class is not a good addition to a group (or less good than another class which is the FOTM), then your chances to get recruited are really slim. Listing avaliable players also give way less credit to players that went manually into X zone to find a group, even if their class or gear is a bit limited, while an LFG players slacking in hometown will be listed as much and people will probably be more inclined to wait him hiking up to the zone than taking what is avaliable, it's all about behaviour and path of least resistance : If you offer the choice to players they will take it, if it's narrowed then they won't go much out of their way and pick whatever choice they have left.
A Dungeon Finder as they exist today? - No thanks. No instant groups, no not talking to other players, and no instant teleports into dungeons.
LFG/LFM tool that shows players looking for a group or a group looking for a player - Yes, please. The players will need to send direct messages to each other and communicate, invite one another to the group, and then meet up wherever they are planning on hunting. Let players and groups put a quick little blurb in the LFG/LFM request so the folks trying to find more have more info, but, outside of level and class, that's about it.