Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

after monk preview thoughts

    • 122 posts
    July 3, 2021 3:50 PM PDT

    watching the monk reveal was very awesome. The monk seems to be really thought out. I cannot say enough good things about the monk class.

     

    I was wondering after seeing that how all of you feel about the classes we have already. I left this thought on pantheon plus review of the monk on youtube. 

    Monk looks awesome...I cannot say enough good things about them. Way better than any other monk class I have ever seen. my only concern is the monk class makes the other classes look not so good or maybe I should say not as fleshed out as the monk class is. After watching this the other classes in pantheon that we have seen are a little lackluster compared to the monk.
     
    I think the VR team is amazing... I know they said they are getting new tools all the time as they make them and this is what they were able to do.
     
    I would like to know your thoughts on the monk compared to what is there now. I am sure they will be able to go back through and add similar features to the other classes.
     
    Thanks
    • 1281 posts
    July 3, 2021 4:54 PM PDT

    I enjoyed the zone they were in, looks fantastic. I think they have a great idea for the Monk, and through beta testing I'm sure they will get it dialed in.

    One area I would be a little concerned with is I know many people will just min/max their characters. So not just with the Monk, but other DPS classes, many players will only choose to do the ability with the highest damage. The Monk seemed to have many options for damage, but why would someone choose any of them over whatever is the highest damage? I think further design into situational abilities would be warranted to avoid this and give people reasons to use other abilities.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at July 3, 2021 4:54 PM PDT
    • 627 posts
    July 3, 2021 11:49 PM PDT
    As a player who want to main the Monk i was thrilled to see the reveal, the charged attack was a fresh and welcomming addition, i hope to see more attacks for the Monk in this category.

    The passive skilles that enhance auto attack rotation, seemed to me a little dull. Its cool and all but i would rather have bottons to presse. So heres and idea. with mastery points, that let the Monk turn these passive into a Damage burst cooldown.

    "Uppon activation for the next 20 secs your kick will have increased Damage and a higer chance to hit." Cooldown 3 min

    Here we bakein the skilles that enhance auto attack rotation with a cool usefull botton to press, when burning a boss or more damage is needed.

    Keep Up the good work, the more we see the more thrilled we get! Truly amasing team Work, keep on keeping on - onwards n upwards
    • 28 posts
    July 4, 2021 4:17 AM PDT

    I have to admit, I was happy to see that some attacks were automated. Coming back to EQ after many years it felt relieving to NOT have many buttons to click, but to focus on 10 or 11 (with AA) skills.

    • 256 posts
    July 4, 2021 6:44 AM PDT

    It's difficult to compare the monk's ability set to other classes. Every class is going to have its own unique gameplay and abilities that set them apart from other classes.

    I do think there are aspects of the monk's abilities that could inspire the development/evolution of the other classes' abilities. With that being said, I wouldn't want to see it become a case of over homogenization. It's fine for some cross-over. For example, a warrior getting a charge-up shield bash that functions like the monk's punch, or the ranger potentially having to decide what auto-attack passives they want for their bows. I just wouldn't want to see every class play by the same mechanics. 

    As for the monk in general,l it looks like a very well-designed class. I do have some potential concerns about the ability that drains their health to amplify damage, but without seeing them in action it's too early to tell if these concerns are valid.


    This post was edited by FatedEmperor at July 4, 2021 6:46 AM PDT
    • 1281 posts
    July 4, 2021 7:42 AM PDT

    Fiall said:

    I have to admit, I was happy to see that some attacks were automated. Coming back to EQ after many years it felt relieving to NOT have many buttons to click, but to focus on 10 or 11 (with AA) skills.

    I'm wondering though - if they decide to stay this route of having some abilities be 'passively active' like this, why not use the utility bar intead of the active ability bar?

    • 3852 posts
    July 4, 2021 7:45 AM PDT

    Too many good looking classes ((grumbles)). I may not get above level 20 for two or three years.

    • 413 posts
    July 4, 2021 10:22 AM PDT

    I notice the fight recap feature for the first time.  Which looks real useful.  But I could see some players using it to gauge to rate other players. Which is fine when adjustments have to be made.  but, I could see some bad apples turning into a grief tool,  missing out on intangibles, and focusing on the DPS/Heal totals too much.

     

    Happy 4th of July!

    • 612 posts
    July 4, 2021 12:40 PM PDT

    A couple points I wanted to bring up.

     

    I was origionally under the impression that there were some abilities that Open Gates and other abilities that Require Gates to be Open. For example, on the old site 'Blast of Chakra' (renamed 'Blast of Chi' now) stated it 'Requires the Gate of Release to be open'. This would mean that Gates were a Combo Mechanic. For example you might need to use a lesser ability to first Open the 'Gate of Release' and only then could you use 'Blast of Chi'.

    But after watching through the footage again it now seems to me that all abilities that are tied to a Gate actually Open that Gate. None of the abilities shown to us (that he actually hovered over so we could see the Tooltip) Require a Gate to be open before they can be used. They all said 'Opens Gate of X'. This includes 'Blast of Chi' which now Opens the 'Gate of Release' instead of Requiring it to be open. Joppa never said anything to refute this, and infact he just said things like 'X ability opens Y Gate'.

     

    Joppa then says that when we use an ability that opens a Gate this gate stays open for 5 seconds and we can only use other abilities that use this same Gate until this gate closes.

    So Gates seem to be more like a 'lockout' mechanic to prevent certain abilities from being combo'd rather than an 'unlock' mechanic to give you access to a stronger ability.

    So for example he explains that 'Backflip' ability opens the 'Gate of Balance' and it Gray's out the 'Feign Death' (which is 'Gate of Peace') ability so it cannot be used until that Gate of Balance closes (5 sec). While Ebb and Flow is also a 'Gate of Balance' and it remains useable after 'Backflip'. Joppa even explains that you can use either 'Backflip' or 'Ebb and Flow' to open the 'Gate of Balance'. And either one will block 'Feign Death' and other 'Gate of Peace' abilities when used.

     

    Joppa also did NOT clarify if using a second ability of the same Gate, after a Gate was open will reset the Gate open time. If you use 'Backflip' to open 'Gate of Balance' then 4 seconds later use 'Ebb and Flow' which also opens 'Gate of Balance' does this reset the Gate 5 second open timer or will the Gate still close 1 second later?

    Then things are get more confused as he moves on...

    A few minutes later Joppa shows us the ability 'Resonating Palm' which lists it as opening 'Gate of Soul'. This ability also makes 'Feign Death' Gray out and become unuseable for 5 seconds. But interestingly it does NOT Gray out 'Backflip' ability. So 'Gate of Soul' blocks 'Gate of Peace' abilities but NOT 'Gate of Balance' abilities. Although Joppa speaking actually says "With Gate of Soul open I can only use Gate of Soul abilities".

    So is this just a bug? Perhaps it's just due to not all the Gates being implemented correctly yet on the abilities they were demonstrating?

    But then....

    Later he shows us 'Blast of Chi' ability which he says opens 'Gate of Release'. This also Gray's out 'Feign Death' but does NOT Gray out 'Backflip' or 'Resonating Palm' and was not Gray'd out by either of them. So at least during this showcase, 'Gate of Release', 'Gate of Soul' and 'Gate of Balance' are not blocking each other. They only seem to block out 'Gate of Peace' abilities. It should be noted that later when he demonstrates using Inner Fountain to close all Gates so he can Feign Death, once he has Feign Death this of course opens the 'Gate of Peace' and it only Gray's out 'Resonating Palm' but not the other abilities. So 'Gate of Peace' seems to be blocking 'Gate of Soul' but NOT 'Gate of Release' or 'Gate of Balance'.

    But maybe that's wrong too...

    Later he shows us 'Chi Burn' which boosts your attack speed, crit chance, crit dmg, and physical dmg but makes you immune to heals. This ability Opens the 'Gate of Release' and it DOES block 'Resonating Palm' which is 'Gate of Soul'. So 'Blast of Chi' does NOT block 'Resonating Palm' but 'Chi Burn' DID even though Both 'Blast of Chi' and 'Chi Burn' Open the 'Gate of Release'. This implies that the Blocking of other abilities is being coded per ability rather than the Gate mechanic itself blocking other Gated abilities.

    Another example: When he shows off the defensive abilities he uses 'Resonating Palm' and it locks out 'Ebb and Flow' but not 'Backflip' which are both 'Gate of Balance'. He then uses 'Backflip' while 'Gate of Soul' is already open and you actually see both of the Gates 'Soul' and 'Balance' open at the same time (source) which should be impossible based on the way he explained how things are supposed to work at the beginning of the video.

    Also of note: Setting Sun seems to Gray out at different times but not always at the moment a Gate is opened. At one point he uses 'Resonating Palm' and 'Feign Death' is instantly locked out, but 'Setting Sun' is still useable for like 1 seconds and then it Grays out too.

    All of this gives us a pretty muddy understanding of if Gates are really supposed to block other Gates or if it's only specific abilities Blocking specific Gates or if only specific Abilities are blocked by Specific Gates or if only specific abilities block other specific abilities.... did any of that make sense?

    It just seems odd that if the Gate system has been implemented that it would be so inconsistant with which abilities block other abilities.

     

     

    I also wanted to talk about how Feign Death actually opens a Gate. Normally when we use Feign Death we would not be expecting to use another ability within 5 seconds since you are currently pretending to be dead waiting for enemies to walk away. So the fact that this is tied to a Gate (ie Peace) at all implies that the Dev's expect that we might actually be likely to use another 'Peace' gate ability within those 5 seconds. Which suggests to me that 'Gate of Peace' abilities will be useable While Feign'ing and will NOT break your Feign Death to make you stand up. My guess is 'Union' (Self % of health heal) will be one such 'Gate of Peace' abilities that can be used while FD and will not break FD.

     

    Also of note: 'Ebb and Flow' tooltip shows that it increases Dodge by 10% and Counter-Attack by 60% for 20 seconds. Yet it says that it has a 5 sec cooldown.

    Since it's duration is longer than it's cooldown, this ability can have a 100% uptime. This might explain why NathanNapalm was so worried about Monks being too good at the Tankiness. Maybe this is a mistake and it's supposed to be 5 Sec duration with 20 Sec cooldown? or maybe it's supposed to be 20sec duration but a 5 min (not sec) cooldown?

    Also, Joppa explained that Counter-Attack is actually a hidden passive part of Block and Parry where your Counter-Attack chance is exactly 50% of your Block and Parry Chance. So if the tooltip for 'Ebb and Flow' says it grants 60% Counter-Attack, this would actually mean it grants 120% Block.

    When he actually uses the ability in the video clip his Dodge goes up by 20% and his Block goes up by 70% (source). So none of these numbers are accurate. Although it does actually last for 20 seconds with a 5 second cooldown which is the part I expected to be wrong. *shrug* Seems pretty OP to have a bonus of 90% total avoidance with 100% uptime.

     

     

    Joppa also at one point showed us a Tooltip (source) for a 'Gate of Balance' buff that he gained after using 'Backflip'. This buff gave him immunity to Push, Pull, Knockdown, and Knockback + 10% dodge and block.

    You see this same buff Icon appear any time he opens a gate, but this was the Only time he shows us the Tooltip after 'Backflip' so we don't know what the buff effects are for having any of the other Gates open.

    • 1479 posts
    July 5, 2021 1:51 AM PDT

    I was enthralled by the stream for the simple reason the monk is my to go DPS class and I'm expecting a lot out of it.

     

    Now about the gate system, I do feel it was revamped as it felt like a simple "secondary ressource build up" mechanic beeing close to a gauge or combo points when detailed on the monk reveal page, and now it looks like a total different system with a single design in mind :

     

    -Limit the versatility of the monk at any given time.

     

    Now I'm totally onboard this mechanic as characters beeing able to DPS, tank and heal themselves at the same time tends to be completely overpowered or down toned until they are uneffective in most roles. Beeing able to use all the monk arsinal in a couple of seconds would mean burning damage like hell, knockback, while beeing avoiding all damage and countering the self damage with a heal, that would of course, be too much.

     

    With the current design in mind, the monk can be very adaptative to most situation but he occurs a 5s lockout everytime he takes a decision that fill force him to choose if wants to DPS, offtank, or sustain damage (and even, drop fight entirely with FD). It also opens the monk to make it's abilities more potent as they cannot be chained and used on cooldown.

     

    @Goofywarriorguy

     

    I so believe the current gate system wasn't fully implemented and didn't lock skills correctly more than "some combos are open but they fail logic and reproductibility", but that's only my thoughts over it.

     

    Overall I only fear Chi Burn will be the only important ability to use and upgrade as it seems like it flows at best with the monk kit, but make him very undesirable in groups as it will pump his health down and potentially waste heals misused on him, or make him unable to reach his best potential on ennemies that do AOE which might represent a big chunk of the encounters. I'm fine with it burning health, but the total block of heals and control over it's duration might be a bit too much here (the autokill potential seems extremely high as the monk cannot stop the skill unless his run out of chi). The monk will also probably scale insanely with attack speed, making attack speed buffers a monster out of it.

    • 810 posts
    July 5, 2021 11:31 PM PDT
    I hope as they build these mechanics they go through and update past classes with them.

    Charging nukes, tap for interrupt charge for stun, press to set evac point hit new ability icon to evac. So many mechanics to reuse.
    • 627 posts
    July 6, 2021 12:08 AM PDT
    @Jobeson true, there are many ways to use the charge funktion.

    I would like to see charged heals, so if the heal is needed you can release it early or let it finish and add a hot or or an absorb Shield, higher crit chance or multiple targets.
    • 159 posts
    July 6, 2021 12:41 AM PDT

    Monk definitely moved up on my list. If I play DPS role, I for sure will play one of the melee classes.

     

    Main reasons for me: Class seems fairly complex, meaning High Skill Cap... more chance to shine. Also seems like a class who might have a decent chance at soloing some content, which I wouldn't hate being an option.

    • 76 posts
    July 6, 2021 1:42 AM PDT

    I don't think the balance passes are done. It is pretty normal for the current creative project to shine a little bit brighter than past projects. Creativity is multi-tiered and foundational. Making one class makes you better at making the next class, ect ect. Its really tough to know where exactly the monk lies on the balance chart right now without complete information. My eye was pulled to the cooldowns. Some very powerful abilities didn't seem to have long cooldowns or any cooldowns at all. It felt a little off to see so much of the monks kit not be assigned to a gate. I was trying to find out what happens when you use two skills from the same gate, does the 5 second lockout refresh on the second skill activation or just keep counting out, but I couldn't find an example in the video. Abilities from the same stance didn't seem to need to be used together or at least not within 5 seconds of eachother, and a large amount of abilities weren't locked out. Not everything off was good for the monk, the charge ability locked out auto-attacks on a class with very high potential auto-attack dmg, the trade off didn't come across as worth it. Ultimately, I think we all saw the potential the monk has once everything is fine-tuned and the breakdown did a great job of showing us a functional and promising chassis. I would not worry about its outshinging other classes. The game is built for every class to shine with proper party support. And Saicred even said in the video to keep in mind its prealpha the numbers arent there yet (paraphrased).

    • 159 posts
    July 6, 2021 2:23 AM PDT

    Gottbeard said:

    I don't think the balance passes are done. It is pretty normal for the current creative project to shine a little bit brighter than past projects. Creativity is multi-tiered and foundational. Making one class makes you better at making the next class, ect ect. Its really tough to know where exactly the monk lies on the balance chart right now without complete information. My eye was pulled to the cooldowns. Some very powerful abilities didn't seem to have long cooldowns or any cooldowns at all. It felt a little off to see so much of the monks kit not be assigned to a gate. I was trying to find out what happens when you use two skills from the same gate, does the 5 second lockout refresh on the second skill activation or just keep counting out, but I couldn't find an example in the video. Abilities from the same stance didn't seem to need to be used together or at least not within 5 seconds of eachother, and a large amount of abilities weren't locked out. Not everything off was good for the monk, the charge ability locked out auto-attacks on a class with very high potential auto-attack dmg, the trade off didn't come across as worth it. Ultimately, I think we all saw the potential the monk has once everything is fine-tuned and the breakdown did a great job of showing us a functional and promising chassis. I would not worry about its outshinging other classes. The game is built for every class to shine with proper party support. And Saicred even said in the video to keep in mind its prealpha the numbers arent there yet (paraphrased).

    I agree with your assessment, but a few specific thoughts:

    1. I personally didn't analyze the gates very closely, because I suspect all classes will go through significant changes. I more so paid attention to the overall ideas, and I definitely feel as though this class will have a higher skill cap than many others. For me I don't care about being the most overpowered class, but I want to be able to shine within the class. Classes that are "easy" to master don't peak my interest.

    2. I don't think the charging flame punch (forget the name) was ever designed to be a dps boost. It provides CC at max and presumably some sort of fire effect at partial charge. It could also be combo'd with other abilities or classes.

    3. Anyone who picks a class based on it being the most "overpowered" is silly. Classes will be balanced from now to eternity and will have their fights and patches where they shine brightest.


    This post was edited by Kass at July 6, 2021 2:27 AM PDT
    • 245 posts
    July 6, 2021 3:47 AM PDT

    Caine said:

    I notice the fight recap feature for the first time.  Which looks real useful.  But I could see some players using it to gauge to rate other players. Which is fine when adjustments have to be made.  but, I could see some bad apples turning into a grief tool,  missing out on intangibles, and focusing on the DPS/Heal totals too much.

     

    Happy 4th of July!

     

    This is a dev tool only, players will not have this.

    • 2138 posts
    July 6, 2021 9:33 AM PDT

    I liked how the mechanic of the gates charging, on the nameplate? with your health and endurance? actually became sort of a mini heads-up display thing to be aware of that was not intrusive.

    like, I could concentrate on the visual aspect of the action and the environment while being aware of that opportunity event becoming available in the charging gates. Coupled with the limited action set hotbar (ahem) I felt it gave enough time to glance away from the fight to select some cool abilities and then see them manifest on the avatar on screen while not missing any suprise things the NPC might do whilst I am glancing away at the hotbar.

    And Joppa didnt even have the hotbar fully loaded.

    I can see why some would like then button mashing aspect of selecting kicks and elbow hits because I think there is some satisfaction in that when in panic mode if things go south because even if you wipe you saw you got one really good round-house in. From an entertainment perspective, seeing the avatar doing random things on its own was also fun to watch as if it was independent of your influence or a true character in the "story".

    I mean, isn't this the same core thinking why everyone wants a pet? No you cant have a pet. Only summoners get pets. Look, see? the monk is doing some cool stuff on its own, like a pet would, and you're controlling it, like you would a pet, just that you are not once removed. A random elbow here and a kick there and they get more powerfull!- there's your pet fix. After all we must align ourselves in accordance with Feng Shui *sanctimonioiusly* "One must not disrupt the flow of Chi" like with a pet. Ok, a goldfish in the right hand far eastern facing corner- but thats it!

     

    • 1019 posts
    July 8, 2021 1:09 PM PDT

    There is always a meta.  It will be found for every class.

    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2021 3:52 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    There is always a meta.  It will be found for every class.

    VR seem to be doing great work to make sure there are meaningful *options* and not just one meta.

    Yes, if you just want to maximise your physical DPS output numbers, there will probably be an 'ideal' loadout for the monk, but there should be lots of reasons you will want a different one.

    If the monsters are greatly resistant to physical DPS, you will want to change you DPS loadout to emphasise your limited 'fire' skills.

    If you want maximise tankiness, because your tank is lacking or you don't have one for some reason, you will need to vary your loadout.

    If you want to be more utility-based because others have more effective DPS and tanking, then you will need another.

    If you want to emphasise pulling skill because you have no crowd control in the group, you need another.

    In some games it didn't/doesn't really matter.  You *could* just pick an 'ideal' build for your monk and it would work anywhere.  In games where everything is designed to allow soloing and classes are balanced to be equally 'effective' then, yes, you just prioritise your overall 'effectiveness'.

    In a game that is more challenging and group-based where monsters are more interesting and even the environment is a foe to overcome - and where LAS is a thing, of course - you will need to adapt yourself to suit or you will almost always be less than ideal.

    • 209 posts
    July 15, 2021 11:54 AM PDT

    I really like how the monk is coming together. If I understood it correctly, the elbow strike/wheel kick abilities basically seem like "stances" that you can put the monk in to increase damage or provide other bonuses. If only one or two can be active at a time, this would make it important to consider which ones you bring into combat in a given situation. I don't really mind that they are passive, as it seems like the monk has plenty of other abilities that require manual activation.

    My biggest question about the monk is still whether their elemental-sounding attacks would be affected by the Archai elemental racial passive. The question was asked on the stream, and Joppa said that some would and some wouldn't. But I'm curious exactly which ones and how we would know in-game. Any thoughts?

    • 9115 posts
    July 15, 2021 5:05 PM PDT

    Jobeson said: I hope as they build these mechanics they go through and update past classes with them. Charging nukes, tap for interrupt charge for stun, press to set evac point hit new ability icon to evac. So many mechanics to reuse.

    It is our plan to do this for all classes :)