Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Mods, Add-Ons, ENB's etc.

    • 409 posts
    July 2, 2021 9:27 PM PDT

    Why not just make a clean UI that is easy to modify with settings/controls the game itself provides? I can think of half a dozen MMOs right now that have it, so it can't be some state secret on how to do it.

    As far as add-ons, like meters, helpers, macro-afk-bot stuff...I say this - if your game mechanics are trash enough to motivate amateur modders to improve your game for you, then your game is trash and/or you should have those modders on your payroll making all that quality of life content for you on a copyrighted, proprietary basis.

    Blizzard's laziness should be neither a development nor business model.

    • 2756 posts
    July 3, 2021 3:49 AM PDT

    Venjenz said:

    Why not just make a clean UI that is easy to modify with settings/controls the game itself provides? I can think of half a dozen MMOs right now that have it, so it can't be some state secret on how to do it.

    I would prefer the UI be changeable in a way VR allow as well. They'd just need to have things moveable, sizeable and half a few options of varyingly elaborate or simple styles.

    Venjenz said:

    As far as add-ons, like meters, helpers, macro-afk-bot stuff...I say this - if your game mechanics are trash enough to motivate amateur modders to improve your game for you, then your game is trash and/or you should have those modders on your payroll making all that quality of life content for you on a copyrighted, proprietary basis.

    Blizzard's laziness should be neither a development nor business model.

    Laziness is right, but I think it's not just about players that want to customise or 'improve' on 'bad' mechanics in the game, but players that can't help themselves wanting to work out how to make the game easier or competitive or convenient that are the problem.

    Player laziness is also the issue in that some 0.1% will work out how to bend the game to how *they* want it to play, but then 90% will just download thier mods and the 'easy' way becomes the default.

    If game companies allow that sort of thing they are tacitly encouraging players to spoil their own game and that isn't just allowing a minority to do it, it is encouraging everyone to do it and then you have people playing your game for a few weeks and stopping because it's 'too easy' or whatever.

    Devs need to have the guts to trust their own design and know that they know best how the game can be enjoyed by their target audience (and, actually, by anyone who gives it a chance).  If people don't enjoy the game, they can go play something else, not modify it and end up ruining it for everyone.

    Yeah WoW is a fine example: There's a mods screen built right into the game, even - one of the first thing players see - and so often the first thing people do is download quest helpers and resource mappers and encounter analytics, etc, etc and the game is no longer anything like the intended experience or challenge.

    • 1921 posts
    July 3, 2021 6:56 AM PDT

    IMO:

    It was great to see some parsing in action on the recent dev stream.  I'm glad to see they're taking advantage of this stat collection/feedback mechanism to prove out mechanics and display them to the public.

    Links: (Look for "Recap of Fight..", in the combat log box)

    https://youtu.be/XUx_uQ0HEXI?t=552 .
    https://youtu.be/XUx_uQ0HEXI?t=589 .
    https://youtu.be/XUx_uQ0HEXI?t=971 .
    https://youtu.be/XUx_uQ0HEXI?t=1099 .

    Screenshot cut-n-pastes .

    • 76 posts
    July 6, 2021 2:12 AM PDT

    Real tough issue. I've seen games poorly design interfaces only to adopt whichever player made add on fixes their shoddy work. I didn't really like that. Ive seen games strictly limit how much of their game was client side, it didn't stop add-ons that warned you when you were being ganked and even told you which defensive move to push in response to the incoming atk, complete with alarms bells and literal whistles. I really didn't like that. Ive seen games with minimalistic ui's that didn't inform the player of valuable information needed to properly play their character, and add ons fixed what would be unplayable. I liked that. I've seen entire "end game" raid teams harrass someone for not having the latest add on to tell them when to move out of easy to predict red aoe's( a potato could roll out of the way of these boss attacks). I really didn't like that.

    I guess I prefer the game company to keep add-ons on lockdown, while simultaneously creating good profesional quality interfaces. The more options they give us for UI and settings the better. Some people may cheat and mod their game, I don't care. I won't cheat and I don't really care what advantage cheaters get over me. That is normal. That is literally why cheaters cheat... to gain an illegal advantage.

    • 159 posts
    July 6, 2021 2:31 AM PDT

    Feyshtey said:

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Mods, Add-Ons, ENB's, and other player-created changes - Where do you stand on this, and would you like to see any of it included with Pantheon? Please explain your answer either way. #MMORPG#CommunityMatters

    It has been stated, and reinforced multiple times by VR, that they intend to allow UI modification. But not to allow any kind of add-ons. While it has been said by VR that they don't think certain kinds of add-ons are inherently harmful to the game, validating which add-ons are ok and which are not was not a path that they felt was worthwhile, or perhaps even viable. So the more pragmatic approach is "no add-ons". 

    I fully support this stance. 

    Has this position changed to the point where you're soliciting feedback? 

     

     

    I fully support your stance on the stance.

    • 209 posts
    July 12, 2021 11:14 AM PDT

    Hate them, hate them, hate them. And I hate them, too.

    For me, mods and player-made add-ons totally take me out of the game world and remind me that I'm sitting behind a computer instead of exploring a magical land. Watching an aggro bar instead of the battle itself, or getting a big pop-up saying "Boss is about to enrage" really wrecks the ambiance for me. Back when I played WoW, I was also always a bit concerned that they might contain malware, etc, so wasn't very keen on downloading them. But then no serious guilds would accept you if you didn't have them, so what were your options?

    Mods, in my opinion, were a significant contributor to the downfall of the golden age of MMOs. If something like an aggro meter is necessary in Pantheon, I would hope that it could be included in the base game (preferably in a way that feels like a natural part of combat, rather than a set of bars you have to watch). But I would be very happy to never have to deal with another mod or add-on again.


    This post was edited by Gyldervane at July 12, 2021 11:15 AM PDT
    • 48 posts
    July 15, 2021 4:19 AM PDT

    I am all for aesthetic mod/add ons if the UI customization of a game is lack luster. Do not agree with add ons that trivialize gameplay by mining combat data. I can do without damage parsers also. I understand why guilds use them, just don't like the elitism that can occur when abused.

    • 209 posts
    July 15, 2021 11:30 AM PDT

    Xanafel said:

    I am all for aesthetic mod/add ons if the UI customization of a game is lack luster. Do not agree with add ons that trivialize gameplay by mining combat data. I can do without damage parsers also. I understand why guilds use them, just don't like the elitism that can occur when abused.

    Totally second the dislike for damage meters. They completely stupify gameplay in my opinion by reducing everything to a simple dps contest. Takes me right out of the magic of the game.

    • 520 posts
    July 28, 2021 12:59 PM PDT

    It all depends of what the game itself will provide - I use addons extremally rarely, but if the game is missing something vital (and can't compensate for it in other form - like no party browser when servers are empty) then I'll install one.

    • 32 posts
    July 28, 2021 10:34 PM PDT

    Gyldervane said:

    Hate them, hate them, hate them. And I hate them, too.

     

    Agreed.

    • 97 posts
    July 29, 2021 1:23 PM PDT

    No, terrible idea because it breeds a lack of standardization. This reminds me of the the terrible the ESO UI modding scene. They called them 'add-ons'. You'd have to pick and choose the best 'add-on' based on various youtube videos all saying something different, swearing this UI mod was better than than UI mod.,. To make matters worse, some UI addons revealed more information than others leading to an unfair advantage in PVP situations. In other words, you could see more information about yourself, mobs, and radar information if you had the right add-on. There were even 'add-on's that were crafting macros. So you didn't have to click to craft, you just install this UI mod that clicks for you. I don't think I need to explain why this is a bad idea.
    VR. I encourage you to make the UI right and just customizable enough. Exposing an API for players is a bad idea.

    • 2756 posts
    August 5, 2021 2:45 AM PDT

    The more I think about this the more I think anything more than *very* limited UI tweaking is a bad idea.

    In a 'social' game the shared experience is vital to the community.

    Changing the way the game is experienced has subtle but meaningful impact on the shared experience of the community.

    • 10 posts
    September 6, 2022 11:13 AM PDT

    Gyldervane said:

    Hate them, hate them, hate them. And I hate them, too.

    For me, mods and player-made add-ons totally take me out of the game world and remind me that I'm sitting behind a computer instead of exploring a magical land. Watching an aggro bar instead of the battle itself, or getting a big pop-up saying "Boss is about to enrage" really wrecks the ambiance for me. Back when I played WoW, I was also always a bit concerned that they might contain malware, etc, so wasn't very keen on downloading them. But then no serious guilds would accept you if you didn't have them, so what were your options?

    Mods, in my opinion, were a significant contributor to the downfall of the golden age of MMOs. If something like an aggro meter is necessary in Pantheon, I would hope that it could be included in the base game (preferably in a way that feels like a natural part of combat, rather than a set of bars you have to watch). But I would be very happy to never have to deal with another mod or add-on again.

    Totally Agree with you , I hope I never seem them in Pantheon

    • 888 posts
    September 6, 2022 12:33 PM PDT

    I'm in favor of allowing some art assets to be replaced.  Especially things like ability icons since games typically only have one style and there are lots of different ways of designing icons, some of which may be far more memorable and distinguishable to me that what I've seen so far in the streams.  I've always been someone who really likes to customize my set-up.  I'm also fully on board with VR's plan to keep the client as dumb as possible to minimize harm from parsing addons.

    • 945 posts
    September 6, 2022 2:07 PM PDT

    Maybe have quarterly reviews of player developed content, but have them vetted and implimented by VR.   I'd hate to miss out on something that could potentially be great for the game because there is a lot of creativity and talent that exists outside of any game's dev team.  I don't however want the game cluttered with nonsense, or not know what the other players are using that may be giving them some artificial advantage or lead to another player not understanding something I'm referring to because I'm utilizing some obscure content or they have become reliant upon some obscure addon.


    This post was edited by Darch at September 6, 2022 2:09 PM PDT
    • 119 posts
    September 6, 2022 2:19 PM PDT

    Controlling mods is probably impossible for a small dev like VR, as even the big devs struggle.

     

    The best thing to do is assume any data sent to the client will be exposed , and therefore limit data sent to a minimum whilst not impacting normal gameplay.

    Assume any response returned from a client maybe automated or altered and do not trust it outside limits of impacting normal gameplay.

     

    • 122 posts
    September 6, 2022 2:21 PM PDT

    I would only like to see skin changes for UI no add ons or anything else really


    This post was edited by Nytman at September 6, 2022 2:23 PM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    September 7, 2022 4:29 PM PDT

    There are artists out there, good artists. There are interface designers that are more intuitively inclined than others that can design a UI after playing that will be wonderfull. Assuming VR will have a say on what Mod will be allowed or used or even looked at. Ideally it needs to be looked at first. Maybe this can be combined with the streamer program? A sub version of the streamer program? Like, an individual with a passion or who is fed-up (lol) can make a youtube or a video and submit. VR can look and maybe test and if they like it, highlight it on streamer sub-program for a wider audience to see?   

    • 200 posts
    September 8, 2022 3:26 AM PDT

    What is an "ENB"?

     

    And i love UI addons as long as they are not able to tell me which button i have to press next or where i have to stand next. So addons should not be able to make decisions.

     

    Cheers

    • 1273 posts
    September 8, 2022 10:41 AM PDT

    People should play the game how the devs designed the game.  

    Modifying HOW information is shown to the user is probably fine, modifying WHAT information is shown gets a big fat no vote from me.  

    Anything that plays the game for a player also gets a big NO.  

    • 252 posts
    September 9, 2022 7:49 AM PDT

    I'm not really in support of any mods or UI skinning; especially anything that can affect the game balance or make one player more effective than a player without mods. What I do support is a highly customizable UI where almost everything is moveable, groupable, resizable. Then provide players with the option to export their customizations to XML so that another player can import them.  This will prevent every user from having to build their own customizations; but keep UI modifications in check.

    • 1281 posts
    September 9, 2022 7:56 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Mods, Add-Ons, ENB's, and other player-created changes - Where do you stand on this, and would you like to see any of it included with Pantheon? Please explain your answer either way. #MMORPG#CommunityMatters

    Customizeable UI and that's it.  Call it skins if you prefer.

    • 303 posts
    September 10, 2022 7:09 AM PDT

    Mods or add-ons are great, imo, but they have to be kinda limited in what is allowed. Imo things like damage meters and the addon called "questie" in classic wow alter the game and culture of the game for the worse.

    On the other hand I really appreciate mods that allow for controller input or other things like that so i'm a bit split.

    • 144 posts
    September 13, 2022 12:17 PM PDT

    The add-on I have consistently used in almost every MMO I've played is a dps parser. I just love to see how I am doing. I'm not even a dps, typically, but I like to see those numbers even as a support to see who best to buff, priority heal, fix my own rotations, etc. I like FFXIV's stance of "we'll only know you have one if you mistreat others because of their performance" even if they may not be quick to take action on it. 

    I know VR's stance on parsers, so I'm okay with whatever is decided on. Granted I really liked the damage output displayed on Minsus' monk video (does it show support stuff too?? *excited face*). Project Gorgon also has a great combat damage display for every mob killed although I wish it showed healing done as well. It's one of the first games I haven't felt the need to even look up if there are add-ons for damage.

    The only other add-ons I've installed for a handful of games are auction house price checkers to know which items I can safely vendor, and a UI one for bag management which I'm okay without. I'm super easy to please with UI stuff. As long as I can modify my hotbars and move my party window, I'm perfectly happy. 

    So where do I stand on this issue? If there will be no dps parsers then I'm completely ambivalent to what others what to do with their UI's, etc. 


    This post was edited by Feastycentral at September 13, 2022 12:18 PM PDT