Iksar said:As for loot drops when it comes to multiple group content, I think it should match the number of full groups expected for that content. If a single group killing a boss gets 1 item then I'd think it reasonable for a band of 42 players doing a 42 person raid boss to get 7 items.
Mathir said:What is your definiton of a loot piñata then? Is something that a notable majority of people can't complete a loot piñata to you? Because that was how it worked for top end content in WoW (at least when I played) and other games. And I would not consider top end vanilla WoW something that was at all a piñata.
Player gating is just an awful means of barring progression at the top end of things when instead skill/difficulty can (and should) be the deciding factor between who has and who does not have the top stuff. There is good reason the EQ raid structure was designed away by top EQ raiders.
A loot pinata is guaranteed loot, especially if it's the amount of guaranteed loot WoW instances dropped. If it's not open world competition, the mob that drops it is just sitting there like a pinata waiting for you to bust it open on demand.
As for Tigole and Furor, they did make raiding easier and more accessible, though they credited EQ1 for all of their design ideas. They absolutely loved that game. However, while instancing was definitely worth experimenting with as an end game raiding tool, I think most agree it turned out to be a net negative overall, shrinking the world, removing competition, and making item acquisition obsolete. I don't think either of them would design an MMO today with instancing.
Manouk said: Gah- sorry to post so much on ths topic ! but with the idea above- did this just solve Mudflation, and end the NBG argument? Hear me out.What if all "event" or quest loots were so coded and dependent on an exchange. That would mean you would have to go in ?with -something- to be able to loot a "proto-item".
...
Instead of geting an item to sell it- which we all know is just not done in MMO's you keeop the item or throw it away, I mean, its pixels, the emperor has no clothes. Values, "The Grapes of Wrath" over "In the Jungle". - you have to have items to be able to loot it! you have to have assets going in!
Turned around.
IMO:
Yes, it would solve those issues. However, I wouldn't (personally) tie it to the looting event, specifically, but some NPC interaction after that, to have more flexibility. You could do it exactly as you describe, though. It would certainly make people think twice. :)
I don't think there's any problem with whoever looting whatever, and paying the resources required for it, later. People could gather as much proto-loot as they want. Heck you could even make it trade-able, if that was desired. It's not required, but it could be. Then you could go and save up all the resources necessary to pay the NPC to make the item "real". That way, you could have competitive loot that's really good, or even has more enchanting sockets, or whatever other thing makes it more valuable or desirable, and also give each player proto-loot of their own that they have to pay for. Both systems could co-exist simultaneously with no economic damage or negative impact at all.
I also like the idea of having a variety of NPCs be available to convert proto-loot to "real" loot, and have devotion, sacrifice, and religious standing play a part. Another simple example would be if you raise your standing with a God of your choosing (the gods of Pantheon exist without question), and as a consequence, your God can grant you the favor of proto-loot conversion via rewards from altruistic and self-sacrifice, it could be that you would strongly encourage a very selfLESS play style, rather than a selfISH one.
Similarly, if you aligned yourself with a class guild, those guilds would also have the same ability to convert proto-loot via acts, deeds, and tasks you perform for them.
The really elegant part to such a system is that none of the proto-loot resources need to be tradeable. That also addresses some currency related problems, if implemented with that design goal in mind. Doesn't have to be that way, but it could be.
I like the system where a "token" is dropped and that token is traded to a quartermaster or other npc leader who will allow the player to pick a reward from a cache or armory. The token doesn't need to be a literal coin or something like that -- although it could be; it might be the claw of a great dragon or something else to could prove the player has slain the boss. This works like a quest except it can be repeated until the gear you need is received, and a token is not dropped every time for every player.
I also like the idea of items dropping in addition to help with the lore or immersion of the game. That would be on a smaller scale though, which makes sense. For example, the great dragon killed a knight in the chamber from a fight long ago, and the sword is a possible lootable item after defeating the dragon. This would be a rarer drop and certainly a big surprise to the raid. It shouldn't be expected. The tokens would drop every fight though.
bobwinner said:Cryptfox said:Nobody likes being apart of a 20-30 person raid and having 1 drop, or 2 drops. The effort to reward aspect of gaming in an mmo should be looked at.
Excuse me, but this is not correct.
-MMO is about your community (guild/alliance), not your solo individuality : you should be happy when a guildie gets loot, not jealous.
I could not agree more the above statements here.
I started raiding in WoW, never got to raid in orginal EQ, my first raid in EQ was in P99 2 years ago and my first raid drop i got there after 4 months of nothing useful for me was so much more enjoyable than anything i did in WoW or Rift ever. The time spent was by far more enjoyable and more mentally engaging (Monk), and the sense of accomplishment when i got the drop was incomparable. The upgrade was significant enough to have a noticable effect on my power. I almost never saw that in in raids in other games, upgrades there seemed like just the next step on stairway not reached the next landing.
I agree there needs to be some balance but honestly 1 or 2 drops for a 6 hour raid would be just fine for me.
NathHaw said:I like the system where a "token" is dropped and that token is traded to a quartermaster or other npc leader who will allow the player to pick a reward from a cache or armory. The token doesn't need to be a literal coin or something like that -- although it could be; it might be the claw of a great dragon or something else to could prove the player has slain the boss. This works like a quest except it can be repeated until the gear you need is received, and a token is not dropped every time for every player.
I also like the idea of items dropping in addition to help with the lore or immersion of the game. That would be on a smaller scale though, which makes sense. For example, the great dragon killed a knight in the chamber from a fight long ago, and the sword is a possible lootable item after defeating the dragon. This would be a rarer drop and certainly a big surprise to the raid. It shouldn't be expected. The tokens would drop every fight though.
This is very similar to the 'expansion currencies' model. I don't mind it myself, but historically, what happens is companies will create a new token type per expansion, which means all the time & effort acquiring the previous tokens is abandoned when a new expansion comes out. Some customers like this, some don't. Opinions will doubtless vary. For a certainty, you could have resources consumed for token redemption, if you wanted more flexibility for each player.
Myself, if it was my system to implement, I would use the same proto-looting-real mechanism (or something similar) for multi-group content such as raids as single group content. That way, the economic control is exerted regardless of the tier of content being consumed.
If you were going to permit arbitrary slot fulfillment from tokens, I think you would need to have a very wide range of effects, including if not outright/arbitrary spell/ability customization aside from slot effects, also spell/ability modification/amplification, by slot.
IMO:
To me, Smart Loot doesn't mean you automatically get the item, it just means (possibly, there are various features) that it has some value to someone, either someone in the group, someone in the multi-group, or an individual.
It's true that some flawed implementations of Smart Loot mean that players directly get equippable/useable items more often, without any economic sink, but as discussed above, a proto-loot system with appropriate economic resource consumption can turn such object acquisition into a net positive for the game economy.
I'll re-state that for emphasis; If it's a design goal, you can make item acquisition remove far more resources from the economy than are generated. That the proto-items or proto-objects might be useable to someone or not, or are rare or common, makes no difference with appropriate economic compensation.
In an extreme implementation, you could have every single item in every single NPCs inventory drop as proto-loot. Every piece of armor, every consumable, every slot of gear. All of it, from every single mob. A monty-haul loot-cornucopia beyond the wildest dreams of avarice. :) People would just leave what they don't want or can't afford. They get to choose, with planning, what to take.
However, the resources required to actually make those items 'real', or useable, equippable, or have any kind of value can require a tuneable resource amount, from trivial to punitive, of all resources you need to remove from the economy to enforce scarcity of everything. So everyone is running around with their bags and banks full of proto-loot. So what? It means nothing, until the time comes to consume the resources.
This can also be used to directly, in a very positive way, strongly encourage or even force emergent player behavior of whatever kind is desired.
If you wanted players to not hoard gold? Make every single proto-loot transaction with an NPC require massive amounts of gold. Now you've removed all the gold, you've got a great sink.
On the other hand, if you don't want it to be about gold at all? Don't drop gold from NPCs (at all, ever) and require the players to sacrifice proto-loot on altars to gain favor with their chosen deity. Now they have to consume all that proto-loot to gain enough favor to get a real piece of gear. Or make it so it also requires regional faction, divine favor, fame, and a sacrifice of XP. So a player has to give up an entire level of XP in order to create that item from proto-loot, in addition to all the rest.
What does that encourage? Players playing the game. They absolutely must, without question, continuously consume content to gather the resources necessary, in this case XP, even at max level.
Of course, implementing any kind of loot system that simply grants gold, equippable items, and similar, rapidly or consistently to players without commensurate sinks is doomed to fail, as 25+ years of MMO history has demonstrated.
vjek said:IMO:
[...]
In an extreme implementation, you could have every single item in every single NPCs inventory drop as proto-loot. Every piece of armor, every consumable, every slot of gear. All of it, from every single mob. A monty-haul loot-cornucopia beyond the wildest dreams of avarice. :) People would just leave what they don't want or can't afford. They get to choose, with planning, what to take.
However, the resources required to actually make those items 'real', or useable, equippable, or have any kind of value can require a tuneable resource amount, from trivial to punitive, of all resources you need to remove from the economy to enforce scarcity of everything. So everyone is running around with their bags and banks full of proto-loot. So what? It means nothing, until the time comes to consume the resources.
This can also be used to directly, in a very positive way, strongly encourage or even force emergent player behavior of whatever kind is desired.
If you wanted players to not hoard gold? Make every single proto-loot transaction with an NPC require massive amounts of gold. Now you've removed all the gold, you've got a great sink.On the other hand, if you don't want it to be about gold at all? Don't drop gold from NPCs (at all, ever) and require the players to sacrifice proto-loot on altars to gain favor with their chosen deity. Now they have to consume all that proto-loot to gain enough favor to get a real piece of gear. Or make it so it also requires regional faction, divine favor, fame, and a sacrifice of XP. So a player has to give up an entire level of XP in order to create that item from proto-loot, in addition to all the rest.
What does that encourage? Players playing the game. They absolutely must, without question, continuously consume content to gather the resources necessary, in this case XP, even at max level.Of course, implementing any kind of loot system that simply grants gold, equippable items, and similar, rapidly or consistently to players without commensurate sinks is doomed to fail, as 25+ years of MMO history has demonstrated.
This would, reward the "slow" players, or those that took time to do the quests, gain the faction, prior to venturing out of their home city making the adage, "level 20 in 2 years is a good pace" over "max level in 80 hours of gameplay" socially identifyable/ostracisable since the level 65 bard that uses an AE in a place you know has high aggro range and wonders why the group keeps getting killed and is never grouped with again because the rest of the group knows- that bard must have bought that account and therefore- doesn't know how to play her class at this crucial high end level (from not having learned from the ground up- over 2 years to level 20...).
Interestingly, Considering delayed gratification and thinking about mentoring or progeny systems such "proto- loot" could also have, with special NPC's, an alternate choice available at a later level should one of those choices be made. Example: I have this Proto-sword, I could exchange gold + faction for a nice selection for my class (some with more aug slots, some with more resists, some with faster delay ratios) or I could go to another NPC and if I mentor down to X level , I will get the proto-item back but with different (better?)selections based on time spent at Mentored level but only available at mains higher level. <- this may be too easily exploitable. OR other NPC with Progeny decision. Some math like progeny re-start = 1 / Current level x = current level proto-loot percentage boost modifier at future current level +1. So like at level 20, you progeny your warrior, turn in your proto loot, create a bard that receives the proto-loot back only useable at level 21, spend 2+ years leveling bard up to 21 then turn in proto-loot for a really nice bard item that is 20% better than normal bard items and better than even proto-loot bard items at that level and maybe a shade lower than multi-group(small raid) level gear if there are raids at that level.
I always thought about this during raids in EQ. I wished that boss mobs would drop at least 1 class specific item for every class in the raid. I didn't like going on a raid for hours knowing that there was nothing my necro would be able to use, it always made me feel like I was just tagging along for the ride and being a good helper for everyone else. It's not a good feeling.
nickglunzgmailcom said:bobwinner said:Cryptfox said:Nobody likes being apart of a 20-30 person raid and having 1 drop, or 2 drops. The effort to reward aspect of gaming in an mmo should be looked at.
Excuse me, but this is not correct.
-MMO is about your community (guild/alliance), not your solo individuality : you should be happy when a guildie gets loot, not jealous.
I could not agree more the above statements here.
I started raiding in WoW, never got to raid in orginal EQ, my first raid in EQ was in P99 2 years ago and my first raid drop i got there after 4 months of nothing useful for me was so much more enjoyable than anything i did in WoW or Rift ever. The time spent was by far more enjoyable and more mentally engaging (Monk), and the sense of accomplishment when i got the drop was incomparable. The upgrade was significant enough to have a noticable effect on my power. I almost never saw that in in raids in other games, upgrades there seemed like just the next step on stairway not reached the next landing.
I agree there needs to be some balance but honestly 1 or 2 drops for a 6 hour raid would be just fine for me.
I'm kind of sad I forgot to respond to this the first time I saw. It's a really great thing to bring up and start talking about!
My first thoughts:
Right off the bat, when we consider all items of potential value, we can start to expand our view of what a raid loot pool can be, without simply giving away more top-tier stat items. Diversity of items is going to be very important to creating a rich drop table that feels rewarding without trivializing progression in a short time. Again, this is all coming down to time - the deferral of an inveitable "end game."
Ideally, if we're talking about a raid of 24 people, going through an area that takes 3-4 hours if run efficiently, I'd like to see everyone in the raid be rewarded, somehow. However, I strongly do not believe that everyone in that raid should be given an immediate stat upgrade, unless they are accomplishing victory far before their stats make the current tier "comfortable."
At this point, I think it would be helpful to give an example of averages to help form a picture of what my "ideal" loot table would look like, because when we talk about loot, we are essentially talking about progression. Let's set up tiers, numerically:
This is a loose example of the kind of progression I'm talking about, purely stat-wise. Now, regarding those "immediate stat rward items" I referred to earlier, let's consider those to be "equal tier" to the content being done. So, if you're doing High Tier Raid content, you're getting gear from that tier. Ideally, I would see distribution looking something like this:
Typical Boss:
Final Boss
Totals:
1 higher tier immediate stat reward
1 higher tier deferred stat reward
6-16 current tier immediate stat rewards (avg 11)
6-16 current tier deferred stat rewards (avg 11)
19-25+ temporary stat rewards (avg 22)
24-32+ access rewards (avg 28)
1 cosmetic reward
Large financial reward
Large Mastery reward
(This is assuming a typical raid of 24 people, 3-4 hours, 5 - 7 "typical bosses", one "final boss." Other "trash mobs" might drop some crafting components, but ideally only coin, or access items, if anything. No-one wants to distribute loot for trash mobs, let's be honest)
You may notice that I didn't have any mobs drop lower-tier items. The reason I'm not a huge fan of populating loot tables with lower-tier items is this: In a game where more items are tradeable, and items have more meaning, having an excess amount of lower-tier items from higher-tier content would simply flood the economy. The point is this: You get rewarded for doing difficult content matching your current tier of gear and "skill." If you're unable to do certain content, you should simply do a lower tier until you have the ability to move up. Plus, trash loot isn't exciting. Alts will already be getting plenty of gear to twink, and it doesn't need to be made easier by giving extra for doing current-tier content. There is likely to be some overlap, but I have confidence that current-tier gear will almost always find a home within the raid party.
It may go without saying, but ideally, the progression of tiers would be linear, so someone doing Mid-Tier Raid content would need to be outfitted mostly with High-Tier Dungeon gear to have the best chances of success. Naturally, this doesn't mean it's impossible to do the next tier, just much less likely. The distribution above is based on that principle.
CONCLUSION:
Everyone is almost certain to get something of value. However, it doesn't trivialize the progression. It spreads out the upgrades while still giving good reason to raid current-tier content. It would also mean that guilds struggling to move to the next tier would have some kind of assistance, by the temporary items/consumables. If we break it down, assuming there are 22 Adventuring equipment slots, we can see an approximation of the raid-only time progression to the next tier, using the example above:
22 slots * 24 raid members = 528 slots to upgrade
1 raid = 24 direct upgrades (immediate or deffered)
22 raids until next tier*** — or, if 2 raids per week, 11 weeks.
***: This would be if the players only did raids, and only progressed their gear from raids. It also means they aren't doing any raids above their current general tier. Most players obviously don't play this way, and will likely progress their character alongside raids through trade and other means.
Final Thoughts: I'd imagine, all factors combined, this would mean that bleeding edge raid guilds would progress through content at a pace of about one tier per month, which I find extremely appropriate. When they hit that final tier, getting those "best of the best" items (~1 per raid) will necessarily be slow, but that is after progressing for approximately 4-5 months. I think that's a solid timeline for hardcore players, while it still leaves a ton of content open for the semi-hardcore and even casual raiders. Remember, Visionary Realms has to have time to create expansions, and scarcity is part of what makes items special. This leaves a little wiggle room for both: a consistent upgrade progression, with a bit of scarcity, without putting impossible expectations on content, and without skewing itemization. Lastly, let's always consider every kind of loot when we think about Pantheon, not just those adventuring gear stat upgrades. I believe with a bit of creative thinking, we can imagine something a bit more nuanced and complex than we're used to!
If you've gotten this far, thanks for taking the time to read through. I know I have a problem. :P
Manouk said: ...Interestingly, Considering delayed gratification and thinking about mentoring or progeny systems such "proto- loot" could also have, with special NPC's, an alternate choice available at a later level should one of those choices be made. Example: I have this Proto-sword, I could exchange gold + faction for a nice selection for my class (some with more aug slots, some with more resists, some with faster delay ratios) or I could go to another NPC and if I mentor down to X level , I will get the proto-item back but with different (better?)selections based on time spent at Mentored level but only available at mains higher level. <- this may be too easily exploitable. OR other NPC with Progeny decision. Some math like progeny re-start = 1 / Current level x = current level proto-loot percentage boost modifier at future current level +1. So like at level 20, you progeny your warrior, turn in your proto loot, create a bard that receives the proto-loot back only useable at level 21, spend 2+ years leveling bard up to 21 then turn in proto-loot for a really nice bard item that is 20% better than normal bard items and better than even proto-loot bard items at that level and maybe a shade lower than multi-group(small raid) level gear if there are raids at that level.
IMO:
Yep, things like what you're describing are all possible once the economic damage is removed from the equation.
I like the idea of progeny being a gateway to something like adding dedicated/unique ability/spell customization/enchantment slots on proto-loot.
Essentially increasing the item value-cap or item-allowance per tier, to permit players willing to put in the time and effort to further customize their character(s), via very situational gear sets.
If a design goal was extremely specific gear-based character-customization, such a mechanic would satisfy that goal.
For the discerning Wizard who wants to really burn everything with fire, you can add a Fireball spell modifier (of some kind) to every one of your 22 slots. And then repeat for Ice Comet. :)
This ridiculously complex topic is very hard to weigh in on eloquently but I will try.
Proto-loot systems can work, but they really only work when they piggy back on a more familiar drop system. It is very rewarding to occasionally get an item that isn't normal. I have personally experienced getting a low stat virtually worthless item with a flavor text prompt hinting at how to "unlock" its potential. I have seen wierd items like gallstones of Dragons turn into valuable crafted accoutrements of great power. And I have wandered back to town with a bag full of mystery junk sauntering towards the appraiser with a glint of hope in my eye. All of these interactions were inspiring and meaningful but they would have been less so if they weren't measured against the backdrop of normalcy. You need a standard nuts and bolts system for stability and contrast. On top of that, there are other values in a normal and direct loop drop system that you don't just want to chuck out. Many of us have experienced the joy of getting the direct drop we have been hunting for after a great amount of perserverance and personal investment, and that has immense meaning to us now, especially in a gaming atmosphere where developers are scared to levy ANY inconvenience against the playerbase.
Moving on to smart loot. I personally hate smart loot. Let me give some examples of why. First, lets say you pick a less popular class. The game starts focusing the drops for your class but those items hold significantly less monetary value because only pariah's and mole people play your wierd class and therefore there is no demand for the items you keep getting. Second, Lets say you play a different angle on a class, like a str based wizard, for instance, now the game is constantly giving you items it thinks you want instead of what you really need for your build. Third, Lets say you just aren't content to only play one single character and you enjoy doing character work for multiple characters at once. Well good luck farming up a side set of gear for your monk because you are a str wizard and therefore u only get intelligence wizard gear not monk drops. And lastly, let's say you like to thread together the strangest equipment and sew them up into an effective but complicated character. Your creativity will be stifled inside a smart drop system because the computer will blindly decide what it thinks you should get as your drops. The issue with a "smart' drop system for me is the loot chosen for me is always very dumb.
I think Pantheon is fine to bring back the oldschool style of itemization for a few reasons. They have already talked about plenty of colorful more proto-loot style systems to go on top of and add depth to their normal drop system. Those transmog and crafting systems will work well in relation to Pantheon's goal to have npc's drop items that make sense to their reality, spider's for instance do not drop suits of armor.(i.e. its easier to have a wild beastman only drop body parts if there is some place you can take those body parts to exchange for wealth). Whether you are lugging items around to the right people, or crafting them into something customized, or target hunting a group of npc's because you like the stats on the items they wear, Pantheons direction for itemization looks solidly based on a good foundation of the organic and mundane enhanced by an interconnected relationship to the endless potential of a creative fantasy world.
Going back to the main question of the topic, should everyone in a raid group get something of value rewarded to them by the game? No, I can't beleive that would be good. I know I didn't enjoy as a raid leader trying to figure out who deserved drops, and DKP added a monotonous gameshow aspect to raid night with an extra side of stress and politics. But I would rather go through that hassle than feel like items from a very powerful "World Famous in Thronefast" Raid NPC had lost their meaning due to overexposure.
I do know this, as long as the Pantheon team keeps on designing towards the goal posts of immersion and preservation of meaning, I am pretty sure I will be happy with the end result.
-Gottbeard-
Gottbeard said: ...Moving on to smart loot. I personally hate smart loot. Let me give some examples of why. First, lets say you pick a less popular class. The game starts focusing the drops for your class but those items hold significantly less monetary value because only pariah's and mole people play your wierd class and therefore there is no demand for the items you keep getting. Second, Lets say you play a different angle on a class, like a str based wizard, for instance, now the game is constantly giving you items it thinks you want instead of what you really need for your build. Third, Lets say you just aren't content to only play one single character and you enjoy doing character work for multiple characters at once. Well good luck farming up a side set of gear for your monk because you are a str wizard and therefore u only get intelligence wizard gear not monk drops. And lastly, let's say you like to thread together the strangest equipment and sew them up into an effective but complicated character. Your creativity will be stifled inside a smart drop system because the computer will blindly decide what it thinks you should get as your drops. The issue with a "smart' drop system for me is the loot chosen for me is always very dumb. ...
Great response, overall, Gottbeard, just on this one topic of not getting what you want;
With an appropriate implementation of proto-loot, you could, for example, have a variety of NPCs who would each be willing to turn the proto-item into something real/useable, but with different stats and/or appearance, to ensure you can focus on your build and customize it via gear. Very simple, very easy.
The negatives of smart loot, as you've enumerated, only exist in flawed implementations where useable/equippable items drop directly.
It's also worth noting that the proto-loot context/category for loot only needs to apply to non-consumable items.
Consumables and raw materials, of all categories, can drop like rain, provided they have exactly no salvage value, no currency value and cannot be sold.
In those cases, if either or both are used as recipe components, NPC-sold fuel costs play the role of the proto-loot NPC adjuster. (where those fuel costs can be coin currency and/or a variety of resources specifically not coin currency)
vjek said:Gottbeard said: ...Moving on to smart loot. I personally hate smart loot. Let me give some examples of why. First, lets say you pick a less popular class. The game starts focusing the drops for your class but those items hold significantly less monetary value because only pariah's and mole people play your wierd class and therefore there is no demand for the items you keep getting. Second, Lets say you play a different angle on a class, like a str based wizard, for instance, now the game is constantly giving you items it thinks you want instead of what you really need for your build. Third, Lets say you just aren't content to only play one single character and you enjoy doing character work for multiple characters at once. Well good luck farming up a side set of gear for your monk because you are a str wizard and therefore u only get intelligence wizard gear not monk drops. And lastly, let's say you like to thread together the strangest equipment and sew them up into an effective but complicated character. Your creativity will be stifled inside a smart drop system because the computer will blindly decide what it thinks you should get as your drops. The issue with a "smart' drop system for me is the loot chosen for me is always very dumb. ...
IMO:Great response, overall, Gottbeard, just on this one topic of not getting what you want;
With an appropriate implementation of proto-loot, you could, for example, have a variety of NPCs who would each be willing to turn the proto-item into something real/useable, but with different stats and/or appearance, to ensure you can focus on your build and customize it via gear. Very simple, very easy.
The negatives of smart loot, as you've enumerated, only exist in flawed implementations where useable/equippable items drop directly.
It's also worth noting that the proto-loot context/category for loot only needs to apply to non-consumable items.
Consumables and raw materials, of all categories, can drop like rain, provided they have exactly no salvage value, no currency value and cannot be sold.
In those cases, if either or both are used as recipe components, NPC-sold fuel costs play the role of the proto-loot NPC adjuster. (where those fuel costs can be coin currency and/or a variety of resources specifically not coin currency)
I think there has been a misunderstanding. I was talking about three different styes of loot systems. Direct loot (kill npc= get usable items), Converted loot (kill npc= get an item that must be converted before becoming usable), and Smart loot (kill npc= get a usable item chosen from a truncated list based on your characters archetype or class).
By those definitions it is not possible to fix the issues of smart loot with converted loot as they are mutually exlusive modifiers on the loot system.
To your second point, a proto loot (converted loot) system turns all drops into a consumable and therefore crafting component drops are a form of proto loot.
My original point was that converted loot systems laced on top of a sound structure of a direct loot system yields a better end result and furthermore the two systems cancel out each others negatives while preserving their individual positives. I personally feel a pure converted loot system would come across as taxing and gimicky. I also do not think a game needs such an aggressively present tax in order to maintain a healthy economic balance.
Gottbeard said:... By those definitions it is not possible to fix the issues of smart loot with converted loot as they are mutually exlusive modifiers on the loot system. ...
IMO:
How about, to use your own definitions:
Smart Proto-Loot (kill npc= get an item that must be converted before becoming usable chosen from a truncated list based on your characters archetype or class)?
What proto-loot items drop can be based on a wide variety of algorithms. It could be produced via static, dynamic, smart, dumb, co-op, or competitive systems.
You could have a mirrored copy of the EQ1 looting system, at launch, and simply turn every piece of equipment into proto-loot. It would be crude, (imo) but it would work. Why not use something more elegant?
To me, how the loot becomes useable and fixing the economic damage, is an entirely separate mechanic to obtaining the proto-loot in the first place. That's why it works with any loot creation system.
And the resource-sink (or tax, as you say) doesn't have to be onerous, egregious, burdensome, or anything like that. It just has to be appropriate to the economic design goals.
It's one additional step, and how many resources are removed can be tuned to be unique per player, if desired.
Without a sink like this, resources and currency (if both drop directly) grow as a factor of time, without limit. Has been true in every game that has ever implemented a similar system.
If you don't address the non-stop tap with a non-stop sink, economic control or balance is mathematically impossible, given the past 25+ years of history.
