dorotea said:2. I firmly believe that the difficulty of a well designed group encounter will be harder than the difficulty of a raid. People keep saying how hard it is to organize a raid but i consider this close to irrelevant. Yes it is true but because a few people have to do the work to get a raid going why should all the characters that maybe did none of that work and have a very easy time of it because in a raid no one character makes much of a difference other than the main tanks and main healers get better drops than group members in group content where if any single one of them isn't on his or her game the encounter may be a failure?
It is certainly possible. In the course of WoW's transition from 40 player raids, to 25, and then to 10 and 25 player versions of the same raids, there ended up being quite a few 10 player raids that were more difficult than the 25 player variants just by virtue of placing more individual accountability on each of the 10 players than in their 25 player counterpart.
So, should a 6 or 12 player encounter that ends up being more difficult than a 24 player encounter drop better quality loot just by virtue of its relative difficulty? I don't think so, but that sort of situation is exactly what will drive a wedge between the community and those guilds that are able to push 12 player content, but can't quite organize enough for 24 player content.
In my pipe-dream of an MMO raids of any size wouldn't even drop determinable loot. They would drop materials or quest items that would allow players to upgrade/change loot they've acquired elsewhere, whether it's an item that originated from crafting, or from a quest or non-raid group content. I mean, if we're talking about a dragon that has existed since before time, with a hoard full of countless and mythical loot, what reasonable person would expect that loot to be in pristine condition after eons of neglect and misuse? I doubt VR would go with such an idea, but this is an opportunity for them to get creative with how players obtain their items.
Raids are always going to be the easiest way to get the best loot in the game if the game has instances or faux instances, which it sounds like Pantheon will. You don't need to increase raid drops on top of giving people their loot pinyatas.
Grind weeks in a dungeon for lesser items or spawn a boss on a loot timer to get the most powerful gear and this system needs bonus drops?
Praecant said:Man i legitimately wonder who here raided anything before WoW because i see a lot of "raids are easy loot" takes. Meanwhile when i think raid my mind immediately goes to Plane of Hate and how fun just zoning in was.
WoW came out in 2004, most MMOs were released after WoW. Only MMO I raided in was EQ prior to WoW. Every game since WoW has effectively been WoW raiding. EQ2, swtor, rift, wildstar, etc.
It's not about the difficulty of the fights. If dungeons had weekly boss spawns I would make the same comments about that system. Guaranteed loot on a timer is easy loot.
Given that we are on a forum for a game targeting the players who have to some degree been gaming for 20 years now I would bet most the people here have done their fair share of raiding across multiple MMOs.
This topic has been promoted as part of my CM content, please continue the discussion and enjoy!
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Cryptfox said:Nobody likes being apart of a 20-30 person raid and having 1 drop, or 2 drops. The effort to reward aspect of gaming in an mmo should be looked at.
Excuse me, but this is not correct.
I am member of the community of the Project1999 (aka p99) server, which is an oldschool everquest (locked to velious expansion) server.
We often raid with more than 100 people and kill bosses that drop 2-3 loot with a 7 days respawn time (+/- a window).
And we do enjoy the way it is.
While I do not know the exhaustive number of reasons why, I can get a few hints :
- Prestige of rarity : if an item is rare, it is prestigious. if everyone has the same "rare" item after two months into release, it's not rare, it's just common garbage. loot should be rare.
-MMO is about your community (guild/alliance), not your solo individuality : you should be happy when a guildie gets loot, not jealous.
World of Warcraft has destroyed that over years the feeling of being a small part of something bigger, your guild, which is also a small part of something bigger, your server.
Players got more and more selfish, self-centered, only caring about getting their best-in-slot gear as fast as possible, and less and less caring about their guild and their guildies. It's time to reverse that.
There is also a big reason for which gearing up should not be too fast : the pace of content development.
For a wide majority of players, loot = content. So, if they run out of looting objectives, they run out of "content", and quit the game.
And developping new dungeons / raids / expansions usually take a lot of time, much more time than players clearing it, unless the game is really hard.
Bosses will go down, bosses will be farmed.
The only way to prevent binge-gamers to run "out of content/loot" too quick, is to make loot acquisition slow. It's sad, but it's true. Loot needs to be rare.
Played small group based games for end game like Final Fantasy 14 and with the randomization of loot tables and 2-3 items drop. It'd take a long time to gear up. But that game is a single source end game. 20+ person raids dropping 2 items could work if say the mini bosses leading up to the final boss dropped potentially best in slot stuff.
But to keep the Boss Loot coveted and unique.
The BIG take away is and make sure that investment of time is proportionate to the rewards.
Other ways to balance it out could be to supplement with Aesthetics that randomly drop in the zone.
Crafting items that drop in the zone.
If the entire investment of time is funneled to a single fight it could...lead some people to lose motivation.
But a wholistic ZONE experience would make it more worth.
When I refer to ideas like a wholistic zone experience, an example I think of is like in Everquest Online Adventures' "Isle of Dread", "Plane of Disease", "Plane of Sky"
Each area was a zone that had trash mobs that could give you good stuff, but there was stuff to do. There wasn't a mentality of "Lets just kill the trash mobs and move on."
bobwinner said:- Prestige of rarity : if an item is rare, it is prestigious. if everyone has the same "rare" item after two months into release, it's not rare, it's just common garbage. loot should be rare.
The only way to prevent binge-gamers to run "out of content/loot" too quick, is to make loot acquisition slow. It's sad, but it's true. Loot needs to be rare.
I find it interesting that you are putting rarity and time together when, statistically speaking, even a stupidly rare drop given enought time will become commonplace. You're only looking at a tiny snapshot of time, 2 months and yet completely forgetting about what happens 6 months, 1 year, 2+years later. Rare drop rates won't 'fix' your issue with demanding 'rare' items stay rare.
Prestige, which I think really is what you want items to keep over time, is much more about the difficulties one must overcome to actually obtain said item. You can have an item that drops off a mob which can be solod by a level 1 character but has a spawn timer of 6 months. By your view, that item is rare, but is it really prestigious if it take no effort at all to acquire? I think not.
Yet an item that is guaranteed to drop off a raid target which takes 70 people to fight; requires a lot of preparation (keys, flags, resist gear, etc); has what Pantheon has been promoting for ages, Dispositions, as well as the Combat Tactics that Joppa spoke about recently; reactive elements that might show up..off of which can need multiple attempts just to devise a strategy and then to actually execute that strategy...would that item not have more prestige? I say it would.
No item will ever keep its prestige given enough time. No item will ever keep its rariety given enough time (well, unless the developers actually stop that item from dropping).
I must admit to immediately assuming (<- my bad) that what was implied, not said for at no time did the OP say this, that what was implied was something akin to "participation trophies" or participation loot.
Thats not what OP is saying at all. What I understand it to mean is: Uber scant loot is fine, but what to do to prevent the raid event from becoming a repetative grind for your turn at scant uber loot. and likewise how to keep it from being boring while you show up so the others can get their chance. Altruism aside.
I see the question as: How do you increase the joy of getting loots without it becoming a "loot piniata"
Cosmetics? that may solve the cash-shop issue but I think that merely becomes padding to the loot table- another iceborn wrist! thats 10 so far! faugh! where's the ear piece!
But maybe clickies arent so bad: one time, lore, Cosmetic, Long Duration (days)- with buffs or proc effects while raid clicky buff is on, that stack with all other buffs or provide multipliers- yes...OP. To be seen with the weapon is awesome, but to be seen with the clicky buff- ooh! - just as awesome. To break out the clicky buff in the middle of a group fight *whoosh*- superman, hot damn!.
But pantheon is a social game and since we're being social how 'bout a small aura with that one shot, long term clicky buff that will fade in a few days? - She's a raider, look at the glistening buff on her- HEY! doesn't it come with a small aura that gives everyone she groups with a +1 cold atmosphere boost? Nah, thats the buff from the one-eye raid, the lightning place? that has a...+2% damage modifier to magic damage spells/weapon procs for group.
Not gamebreaking but a nice edge. the condition is if grouped with other raiders only one aura sticks with non raider(<- how to choose! first to invite?). If all raiders, no auras- just the OP time specific buff.
Raid earned clicky buffs fade on entering any raid event. (so you cant twink your low level self that shouldn't be there without a 4 death health buffer before raid so you dont lose level).
If you lose event, no clicky.
For all the effort VR is putting into making NPCs smart (or just having more actions to perform and knowing when to do them) I'd like to see similar effort put into making the loot process smarter. Having a loot table with each item only have some X percentage to drop is so...lazy. Add some intelligence to the system so that we aren't throwing 24+ players at a raid mob only to see garbage drop that nobody who's present can actually use, or (later one when everyone has something from that NPC but still has other options left) seeing the same items dropping and thus rotting.
ThumperBN said: What if there's a mix of "personal" loot and Raid loot? Raid loot would be accessible only by the raid leader or designated looter. The personal loot would be a singular set of items, for each player, which could only be obtained when they click and loot. This preserves the limited raid loot to a few pieces, which maintains their rarity, while providing more general loot for all that took part and looted from the corpse?
bobwinner said:
- Prestige of rarity : if an item is rare, it is prestigious. if everyone has the same "rare" item after two months into release, it's not rare, it's just common garbage. loot should be rare.The only way to prevent binge-gamers to run "out of content/loot" too quick, is to make loot acquisition slow. It's sad, but it's true. Loot needs to be rare.
Vandraad said:
I find it interesting that you are putting rarity and time together when, statistically speaking, even a stupidly rare drop given enought time will become commonplace. You're only looking at a tiny snapshot of time, 2 months and yet completely forgetting about what happens 6 months, 1 year, 2+years later. Rare drop rates won't 'fix' your issue with demanding 'rare' items stay rare.Prestige, which I think really is what you want items to keep over time, is much more about the difficulties one must overcome to actually obtain said item. You can have an item that drops off a mob which can be solod by a level 1 character but has a spawn timer of 6 months. By your view, that item is rare, but is it really prestigious if it take no effort at all to acquire? I think not.
Yet an item that is guaranteed to drop off a raid target which takes 70 people to fight; requires a lot of preparation (keys, flags, resist gear, etc); has what Pantheon has been promoting for ages, Dispositions, as well as the Combat Tactics that Joppa spoke about recently; reactive elements that might show up..off of which can need multiple attempts just to devise a strategy and then to actually execute that strategy...would that item not have more prestige? I say it would.
No item will ever keep its prestige given enough time. No item will ever keep its rariety given enough time (well, unless the developers actually stop that item from dropping).
Vandraad said:
For all the effort VR is putting into making NPCs smart (or just having more actions to perform and knowing when to do them) I'd like to see similar effort put into making the loot process smarter. Having a loot table with each item only have some X percentage to drop is so...lazy. Add some intelligence to the system so that we aren't throwing 24+ players at a raid mob only to see garbage drop that nobody who's present can actually use, or (later one when everyone has something from that NPC but still has other options left) seeing the same items dropping and thus rotting.
IMO:
Each of these quotes above is highlighting the same design issue, which is a solved problem, logically.
The design challenge is: How do you address the fear of economic damage from providing rewards to players?
The answer is: You require the players to consume something of value in order to (ultimately) gain that reward. You solve the problem economically.
It doesn't mean you have to stop items from dropping, it just means you have to add one extra step that involves an NPC, and you can drop as much loot as you want; personal, procedural, static, dynamic, public, competitive, co-op, shared, smart, tradeable, no-trade, lore, heirloom, whatever. All of things don't matter in the slightest, if you (the designer/developer) are willing to add that extra step to EVERY equippable, non-consumable item in the game, regardless of how, when, where, why it's obtained.
That's the solution. That's it. It's a solved problem. Then all of these concerns disappear and you can move on to other design issues that really matter. :)
How does this solution work in practice? There's many, many, many possible methods. But one very simple one is this:
Step 1: Loot drops, but it cannot be equipped or used.
Step 2: The player interacts with an NPC, designates an item in their inventory, and the NPC charges the player a cost; to consume some or many resources (time, faction, xp, currency, items, prestige, renown, fame, standing, more).
Step 3: The player agrees to the cost. The resources are consumed. The NPC alters the item, and it is now equippable.
The cost that the NPC charges can be unique, static or dynamic, either per server, globally across all servers, per player, or per guild affiliation (NPC or PC guild).
Again, if you're willing to add this one simple step, then all the concerns about drop rates and all the other highlighted concerns over the past 7 years are resolved. It provides a tunable and if desired, dynamic method of complete economic control to the entire game.
How so? Because all you have to do is have the NPC charge enough of whatever resources there is "too much of" (in your opinion, as a designer/developer/owner/operator) to make items equippable. Too much currency? Charge more currency. Too much XP, charge more XP. Too much faction, charge more faction. Too many raw resources? Charge more raw resources. Too much of everything? Charge more of everything. You can also charge exponentially more resources per repeated specific item, per player, if that's a design goal.
Optionally, if you really want to be a rock star? Require a donation/sacrifice mechanism to create some of the necessary resources to pay the item-altering NPC. :)
vjek said:ThumperBN said: What if there's a mix of "personal" loot and Raid loot? Raid loot would be accessible only by the raid leader or designated looter. The personal loot would be a singular set of items, for each player, which could only be obtained when they click and loot. This preserves the limited raid loot to a few pieces, which maintains their rarity, while providing more general loot for all that took part and looted from the corpse?bobwinner said:
- Prestige of rarity : if an item is rare, it is prestigious. if everyone has the same "rare" item after two months into release, it's not rare, it's just common garbage. loot should be rare.The only way to prevent binge-gamers to run "out of content/loot" too quick, is to make loot acquisition slow. It's sad, but it's true. Loot needs to be rare.
Vandraad said:
I find it interesting that you are putting rarity and time together when, statistically speaking, even a stupidly rare drop given enought time will become commonplace. You're only looking at a tiny snapshot of time, 2 months and yet completely forgetting about what happens 6 months, 1 year, 2+years later. Rare drop rates won't 'fix' your issue with demanding 'rare' items stay rare.Prestige, which I think really is what you want items to keep over time, is much more about the difficulties one must overcome to actually obtain said item. You can have an item that drops off a mob which can be solod by a level 1 character but has a spawn timer of 6 months. By your view, that item is rare, but is it really prestigious if it take no effort at all to acquire? I think not.
Yet an item that is guaranteed to drop off a raid target which takes 70 people to fight; requires a lot of preparation (keys, flags, resist gear, etc); has what Pantheon has been promoting for ages, Dispositions, as well as the Combat Tactics that Joppa spoke about recently; reactive elements that might show up..off of which can need multiple attempts just to devise a strategy and then to actually execute that strategy...would that item not have more prestige? I say it would.
No item will ever keep its prestige given enough time. No item will ever keep its rariety given enough time (well, unless the developers actually stop that item from dropping).
Vandraad said:
For all the effort VR is putting into making NPCs smart (or just having more actions to perform and knowing when to do them) I'd like to see similar effort put into making the loot process smarter. Having a loot table with each item only have some X percentage to drop is so...lazy. Add some intelligence to the system so that we aren't throwing 24+ players at a raid mob only to see garbage drop that nobody who's present can actually use, or (later one when everyone has something from that NPC but still has other options left) seeing the same items dropping and thus rotting.IMO:
Each of these quotes above is highlighting the same design issue, which is a solved problem, logically.
The design challenge is: How do you address the fear of economic damage from providing rewards to players?
The answer is: You require the players to consume something of value in order to (ultimately) gain that reward. You solve the problem economically.It doesn't mean you have to stop items from dropping, it just means you have to add one extra step that involves an NPC, and you can drop as much loot as you want; personal, procedural, static, dynamic, public, competitive, co-op, shared, smart, tradeable, no-trade, lore, heirloom, whatever. All of things don't matter in the slightest, if you (the designer/developer) are willing to add that extra step to EVERY equippable, non-consumable item in the game, regardless of how, when, where, why it's obtained.
That's the solution. That's it. It's a solved problem. Then all of these concerns disappear and you can move on to other design issues that really matter. :)
How does this solution work in practice? There's many, many, many possible methods. But one very simple one is this:
Step 1: Loot drops, but it cannot be equipped or used.
Step 2: The player interacts with an NPC, designates an item in their inventory, and the NPC charges the player a cost; to consume some or many resources (time, faction, xp, currency, items, prestige, renown, fame, standing, more).
Step 3: The player agrees to the cost. The resources are consumed. The NPC alters the item, and it is now equippable.
The cost that the NPC charges can be unique, static or dynamic, either per server, globally across all servers, per player, or per guild affiliation (NPC or PC guild).Again, if you're willing to add this one simple step, then all the concerns about drop rates and all the other highlighted concerns over the past 7 years are resolved. It provides a tunable and if desired, dynamic method of complete economic control to the entire game.
How so? Because all you have to do is have the NPC charge enough of whatever resources there is "too much of" (in your opinion, as a designer/developer/owner/operator) to make items equippable. Too much currency? Charge more currency. Too much XP, charge more XP. Too much faction, charge more faction. Too many raw resources? Charge more raw resources. Too much of everything? Charge more of everything. You can also charge exponentially more resources per repeated specific item, per player, if that's a design goal.Optionally, if you really want to be a rock star? Require a donation/sacrifice mechanism to create some of the necessary resources to pay the item-altering NPC. :)
trade faction/ too much faction- this could also translate into a RP thing, having the weapon from the elven goddess and - stands to reason- all the elves now hate you(trading elvish faction for weapon) Or better yet- some suprise faction hits. You looted the dagger of the Demi-lich? paying cash but suprise; now necromancers.. and players? hate you (player necro's cant buff you) but the undead avoid you (because they think you are the new demi-lich).
vjek said:How does this solution work in practice? There's many, many, many possible methods. But one very simple one is this:
Step 1: Loot drops, but it cannot be equipped or used.
Step 2: The player interacts with an NPC, designates an item in their inventory, and the NPC charges the player a cost; to consume some or many resources (time, faction, xp, currency, items, prestige, renown, fame, standing, more).
Step 3: The player agrees to the cost. The resources are consumed. The NPC alters the item, and it is now equippable.
The cost that the NPC charges can be unique, static or dynamic, either per server, globally across all servers, per player, or per guild affiliation (NPC or PC guild).Again, if you're willing to add this one simple step, then all the concerns about drop rates and all the other highlighted concerns over the past 7 years are resolved. It provides a tunable and if desired, dynamic method of complete economic control to the entire game.
How so? Because all you have to do is have the NPC charge enough of whatever resources there is "too much of" (in your opinion, as a designer/developer/owner/operator) to make items equippable. Too much currency? Charge more currency. Too much XP, charge more XP. Too much faction, charge more faction. Too many raw resources? Charge more raw resources. Too much of everything? Charge more of everything. You can also charge exponentially more resources per repeated specific item, per player, if that's a design goal.
I think I understand. Raid kills a mob, in the loot there a pair of no-drop greaves. Any class can loot that because it is generic, i.e. proto-greaves, where after talking to a specific NPC and following what you described above, the proto-greaves become something specific to your class. Yes? If so, I could definitely back that as a game mechanic.
Praecant said:Man i legitimately wonder who here raided anything before WoW because i see a lot of "raids are easy loot" takes. Meanwhile when i think raid my mind immediately goes to Plane of Hate and how fun just zoning in was.
It's a weird take because WoW has some of the hardest raids (mythic difficulty) out there from what I understand of it. Even in Vanilla it took many months for even the top guilds to beat each raid tier, even with full access at any time they wanted to learn. Raiding and even single group content can be tuned to be exceptionally difficult, such that most players even with 100% access still cannot complete it. Loot piñata is just a nonsense boogeyman.
Vandraad said:I think I understand. Raid kills a mob, in the loot there a pair of no-drop greaves. Any class can loot that because it is generic, i.e. proto-greaves, where after talking to a specific NPC and following what you described above, the proto-greaves become something specific to your class. Yes? If so, I could definitely back that as a game mechanic.
Yes, that's definitely an implementation that is positive and possible, and would accomplish the design goal of an economic solution.
It could be that way, as well as, at the same time be any kind of item (even class restricted) you would care to provide to players. It could also be personal loot AND competitive loot, concurrently. Because the required resources MUST be consumed, no matter what, to ultimately bring that item into a useable state. I like the phrase "proto-object", that's a good description.
I also like the idea above of consequences for "amazing" item creation, like faction hits. Amazing to Necromancers, sure, not so amazing to Paladins.
Head Paladin: " The Malevolent Dagger of Bloodletting is back in the world. Track down the Necromancer that has blasphemed to create it, kill them and their allies, recover it, and destroy it".
Now THAT? My guild would play the hell out of that. :D Especially if an actual hit squad of Paladins was dispatched into the world, tracked you down, and did their best to accomplish their mission.
Portal opens, 15 paladins appear, and they attack all the "allies" of the Necromancer. Choose your friends wisely..
vjek said:Vandraad said:I think I understand. Raid kills a mob, in the loot there a pair of no-drop greaves. Any class can loot that because it is generic, i.e. proto-greaves, where after talking to a specific NPC and following what you described above, the proto-greaves become something specific to your class. Yes? If so, I could definitely back that as a game mechanic.
Yes, that's definitely an implementation that is positive and possible, and would accomplish the design goal of an economic solution.
It could be that way, as well as, at the same time be any kind of item (even class restricted) you would care to provide to players. It could also be personal loot AND competitive loot, concurrently. Because the required resources MUST be consumed, no matter what, to ultimately bring that item into a useable state. I like the phrase "proto-object", that's a good description.
I also like the idea above of consequences for "amazing" item creation, like faction hits. Amazing to Necromancers, sure, not so amazing to Paladins.
Head Paladin: " The Malevolent Dagger of Bloodletting is back in the world. Track down the Necromancer that has blasphemed to create it, kill them and their allies, recover it, and destroy it".
Now THAT? My guild would play the hell out of that. :D Especially if an actual hit squad of Paladins was dispatched into the world, tracked you down, and did their best to accomplish their mission.
Portal opens, 15 paladins appear, and they attack all the "allies" of the Necromancer. Choose your friends wisely..
heh- there's your dynamic raid encounter. Go back to event next week/month whenever. Your necro in your raid force carries the dagger they won from last event, trading- oh- cash for the proto-dagger. Upon entering the event with the dagger it acts as a flag/key. Instead of raid trash- you get the mini event you just described: portal with 15 paladins in addition to the main event, one time only. Same necro cannot trigger same event again. However another necro can pay- whatever- to get the dagger, if it drops (rare)
Then if an Dire Lord pays wolf hides for one of the proto-paladin swords. Here is a Dire lord weilding a holy sword. In the world the Dire lord has hidden faction boost by the mere pressence of the holy sword of +whatever in holy places and knights and -whatever amongst dire lord trainers for holding such pure....filth. (like weilding the elven sword, or you can RP it further by paying elven faction for the elven sword and be more hated. but the mere pressence of the elven sword you hold from defeating the elven goddess ion the raid event is enough to have elven NPC's look upon you with disdain because of the hidden -faction hit)
Or if the other necro doesnt want it, a rogue decides to pay filthy lucre. Gets the dagger and next time raid enters the event, instead of raid trash the rogue triggers....not paladins but 10 bounty hunters (ranger/warrior mix) wtf! that- due to tracking- the rogue cannot hide from or evade, in fact no tactics like those work for all of the raid. muahahaha.(I am not a dev)
Cryptfox said:I'm wondering what their plan for looting is.
Cus having 24 people in a raid and getting 1-3 drops in other games has been a pet peeve of mine.
And just spit balling.
Would having a 20% / Raid Size would be a fair amount?
24 man = 5 drops
There needs to be enough loot to need to repeat the content, but have a proper proportion of Effort/Reward in my mind.
If the said encounter or enemy's loot table has 20 items, each with a 5% drop chance and 24 man raid.
Each participant (roughly) has a 2.5% chance at the loot drops.
Which would fluctuate up and down based on if an item is for one class or not.
Just a lil bit of my logic behind my thought of a (24*.2) for # of items.
I'd like to open this up to others to add on to, not necessarily try to prove my point or disprove it but to provide an avenue to improve upon the looting standards in older games that we've just......accepted....as general practice.
Lets make it better.
Nobody likes being apart of a 20-30 person raid and having 1 drop, or 2 drops. The effort to reward aspect of gaming in an mmo should be looked at.
Iksar said:Praecant said:Man i legitimately wonder who here raided anything before WoW because i see a lot of "raids are easy loot" takes. Meanwhile when i think raid my mind immediately goes to Plane of Hate and how fun just zoning in was.
It's a weird take because WoW has some of the hardest raids (mythic difficulty) out there from what I understand of it. Even in Vanilla it took many months for even the top guilds to beat each raid tier, even with full access at any time they wanted to learn. Raiding and even single group content can be tuned to be exceptionally difficult, such that most players even with 100% access still cannot complete it. Loot piñata is just a nonsense boogeyman.
WoW is a loot pinata due to instancing. Any game with instancing is a loot pinata. It's loot on demand, you don't have to compete with an open server for it, all you have to do is defeat the encounter. You are guaranteed your chance to obtain that loot every single time.
A real MMMORPG, such as classic EQ1, requires you to not only defeat the encounter, but also beat the massive amount of other players racing you to that content. There is no guaranteed chance at loot, there's not even a guaranteed encounter at all.
I agree with you and dislike when people criticize WoW raiding for being easy, it was not, it was amazing and challenging. But it absolutely was a loot pinata and MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH easier to obtain end game gear than an open world raiding system like EQ1 because you had the raids essentially private and on demand. Very similar to the current TLP EQ raids, which is an extreme bastardization of the original game's difficulty and challenge. If I have any beef with the modern gamer, and modern game development companies for appeasing them, is that they want access to everything and feel they are entitled to have that access at the time of their choosing. That combination always results in a game being a loot pinata.
As for loot drops when it comes to multiple group content, I think it should match the number of full groups expected for that content. If a single group killing a boss gets 1 item then I'd think it reasonable for a band of 42 players doing a 42 person raid boss to get 7 items.
Mathir said:
What is your definiton of a loot piñata then? Is something that a notable majority of people can't complete a loot piñata to you? Because that was how it worked for top end content in WoW (at least when I played) and other games. And I would not consider top end vanilla WoW something that was at all a piñata.
Player gating is just an awful means of barring progression at the top end of things when instead skill/difficulty can (and should) be the deciding factor between who has and who does not have the top stuff. There is good reason the EQ raid structure was designed away by top EQ raiders.
As for the question, I am puzzled. 24 people is not a raid. It's a small multi group event. That can be rewarded with one drop off each boss and a small chance at some decent drops off trash loot. That's good enough for a small multi group event. And if it's instanced, much less loot.
I definitely agree that nobody likes being a part of a 20 or 30 man "raid". That's laughably teeny for a raid. I get modern games do that, but modern games are anti-social, entitlement fests. I hope Pantheon can do better, at a minimum bring back the 72-100 man raids from EQ, and if they do, let the boss mobs drop 3-5 items depending on if instanced or open world. At the end of the day, raiding needs to be fun and epic in scope, that'll keep people participating. And the open world nature of raiding should make just tagging the mob and getting a chance to fight the marquee event/boss something to be excited about because it can bolster the prestiege of the guild.
Now, if we're talking, say, a 40 man instanced raid very similar to a Molten Core from WoW that is designed as an entry level raid experience for hardcores, and likely the only raid experience for casuals, than I think the WoW template works fine and the loot pinata can continue. And I actually hope Pantheon does that so casual players can have somewhat challenging end game content to pursue if they don't just simply roll alts. I hope the vast majority of open world raiding is 72+ man content that hardcore players compete for similar to classic EQ. But maybe more bosses and raid content, but less loot drops overall.
I guess I am the opposite of the OP. My hope is to play this game on one character for 5-10 years. Similar to what I did with EQ1. And I liked that I never got all the items I wanted. I liked that things were extremely rare and if you got one, you really stood out on the server. The formula is great in my mind, and it works. Hard to get raid mobs due to competition, very limited loot drops when you do win, and the best items are extremely rare on top of that. That's a never ending carrot I will always chase. As long as the game is social and raiding is epic and fun.
You kill a mob that is also some class. You kill a boss who is a warrior so he should drop something a warrior would use. You kill a cleric and it should drop something a cleric would be using. The higher the level the better the possible drops. In a raid, you work you way towards the raid objective killing lesser mobs, but still better than your every day mob. They also drop items appropriate to their class and level. The number of drops should have nothing to do with the number of people involved with the kill. Top loot should be scarce. Maybe a way to keep things interesting would be to have different looks of the same item; maybe different colors. So you may have it and I may have it, but mine could be blue and yours could be gold. Mine could have different embellishements than yours, but they'd be the same named item with the same stats.
Vandraad said:vjek said:How does this solution work in practice? There's many, many, many possible methods. But one very simple one is this:
Step 1: Loot drops, but it cannot be equipped or used.
Step 2: The player interacts with an NPC, designates an item in their inventory, and the NPC charges the player a cost; to consume some or many resources (time, faction, xp, currency, items, prestige, renown, fame, standing, more).
Step 3: The player agrees to the cost. The resources are consumed. The NPC alters the item, and it is now equippable.
The cost that the NPC charges can be unique, static or dynamic, either per server, globally across all servers, per player, or per guild affiliation (NPC or PC guild).Again, if you're willing to add this one simple step, then all the concerns about drop rates and all the other highlighted concerns over the past 7 years are resolved. It provides a tunable and if desired, dynamic method of complete economic control to the entire game.
How so? Because all you have to do is have the NPC charge enough of whatever resources there is "too much of" (in your opinion, as a designer/developer/owner/operator) to make items equippable. Too much currency? Charge more currency. Too much XP, charge more XP. Too much faction, charge more faction. Too many raw resources? Charge more raw resources. Too much of everything? Charge more of everything. You can also charge exponentially more resources per repeated specific item, per player, if that's a design goal.I think I understand. Raid kills a mob, in the loot there a pair of no-drop greaves. Any class can loot that because it is generic, i.e. proto-greaves, where after talking to a specific NPC and following what you described above, the proto-greaves become something specific to your class. Yes? If so, I could definitely back that as a game mechanic.
Gah- sorry to post so much on ths topic ! but with the idea above- did this just solve Mudflation, and end the NBG argument? Hear me out.
What if all "event" or quest loots were so coded and dependent on an exchange. That would mean you would have to go in ?with -something- to be able to loot a "proto-item". No more wizard rolling on a sword they cant use and arguing about the real meaning of NBG. because the sword will be a sword everyone can use- but wil go to the one that can pay the price. NBG will still be there for the good (pardon the judgment call) Yes it will still be there for the good, that know intuitively what NBG means and live accordingly for they will have the opportunity to altruistically pool their resources to give to the one that would better use the item- Spock and Kirk in Star Trek and tale of two cities quote "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. But sometimes, the needs of the one outweigh..."
Those droppable items or tradeskill mats will have much more value. No more the need to have a quest where the lame tradeskiller is working at the smithy while the rest of the group risks their lives against the horde while the pasty tradeskiller makes a ...combine...instead of helping the friends- like the reporter in Saving Private Ryan taking his sweet time delivering the ammo up the stairs and too late to allow the enemy to "Shh-shh" place the knife slowly in the heart of his buddy. really? No. Instead he tradeskiller suddenly has MORE value in the group fighting away because when the enemy is dead- the tradeskiller has the extra mats to be taded from their hoarding of such mats in their travels to increase their trade.
Guild bank has a real meaning now. In game guild dues with in game currency or tradeskill mats or gems might be a necessary and valuable management tool- to be able to pay for "proto-items" as they drop in raids instead of having the burden on one person.
There would have to be a distinction between non-proto-weilding loot mobs and proto-weilding loot mobs perhaps devided by sentience? animals and the like a rare chance (odd swallowed ring, broken blade in hide sort of thing but mostly hides and meat) semi-sentients some coin, mostly rags, meat and hides- but sentient, armored beings? proto-loot. At least one level range item.
Instead of geting an item to sell it- which we all know is just not done in MMO's you keeop the item or throw it away, I mean, its pixels, the emperor has no clothes. Values, "The Grapes of Wrath" over "In the Jungle". - you have to have items to be able to loot it! you have to have assets going in!
Turned around.