I'm wondering what their plan for looting is.
Cus having 24 people in a raid and getting 1-3 drops in other games has been a pet peeve of mine.
And just spit balling.
Would having a 20% / Raid Size would be a fair amount?
24 man = 5 drops
There needs to be enough loot to need to repeat the content, but have a proper proportion of Effort/Reward in my mind.
If the said encounter or enemy's loot table has 20 items, each with a 5% drop chance and 24 man raid.
Each participant (roughly) has a 2.5% chance at the loot drops.
Which would fluctuate up and down based on if an item is for one class or not.
Just a lil bit of my logic behind my thought of a (24*.2) for # of items.
I'd like to open this up to others to add on to, not necessarily try to prove my point or disprove it but to provide an avenue to improve upon the looting standards in older games that we've just......accepted....as general practice.
Lets make it better.
Nobody likes being apart of a 20-30 person raid and having 1 drop, or 2 drops. The effort to reward aspect of gaming in an mmo should be looked at.
IMO:
With an appropriate economic design, you can have personal and/or smart loot with exclusively positive economic impacts.
As that's the case, from my perspective, anything that doesn't meet that achievable goal is just a mistake waiting to be fixed. :)
Put another way, if a core and distinctive public design goal for your game (whatever game that is) is positive social interactions between paying customers, then intentionally designing an economic system (including loot) that intentionally creates primarily, mostly, many, some or only negative social interactions would seem to be a fundamentally flawed design. Competitive loot is an example of such flawed design, based on history and logic.
I would expect/hope that a major raid boss would drop 2-3 pieces and that minor sub bosses along the way may drop a single piece. In addition, there could also be crafting items that drop and possibly random drops.
I do not think a drop rate higher than that is appropriate considering Pantheon is trying to not be like other games where you quickly max out, get bored, and quit until the next expansion.
That all said, it's a bit early to discuss this because they haven't shared much info with RAID content, or even loot balance at this point.
vjek said:IMO:
With an appropriate economic design, you can have personal and/or smart loot with exclusively positive economic impacts.
As that's the case, from my perspective, anything that doesn't meet that achievable goal is just a mistake waiting to be fixed. :)Put another way, if a core and distinctive public design goal for your game (whatever game that is) is positive social interactions between paying customers, then intentionally designing an economic system (including loot) that intentionally creates primarily, mostly, many, some or only negative social interactions would seem to be a fundamentally flawed design. Competitive loot is an example of such flawed design, based on history and logic.
I cannot explain how much I am against personal loot/smart loot in an MMORPG. That is a single person game design in my opinion and should not be in an MMO.
I don't know that I could put numbers to drop rates without knowing more information about raids in general, but to me there could be other considerations as well.
Other factors like spawn rates, instance vs open world boss encounters, triggered boss encouters, etc all play a role in drop rates in my mind. Without these variables it would be very hard to say how often something should drop. I've raided many times without "tangible benefits" except for the DKP at the end of the night. I'm hoping raiding is enjoyable enough in Pantheon that not getting a gear drop is more of an afterthought than thinking that was the entire point of the evening. Both from a game perspective and social perspective.
I'm hoping this won't be an issue honestly. With the diversity of gear being a stated desire and hopefully the necessity of different stats for the classes I'm really hoping that all of the casters won't be going after that one single robe drop or all of the tanks going for that specific shield. Of course, timing will play a big part in this too. People are better geared the longer content has been out generally. They could be going after only a handful of items that are considered "upgrades". This isn't the same thing as only a few pieces of gear dropping over the course of an evening. In the end it will come down to balance. I'm honestly hoping we all aren't running around in BIS gear 6 months after release. I would much prefer a "wish list" of gear for my character that I may never fully cross off.
This thread reflects the approach that raids are more important than other content and that rewards from raids are more important than other rewards and should be addressed with appropriate care. While that is entirely true in many MMOs I hope and expect that it will be different in Pantheon. The mindset that raids at "endgame" matter more than other content - or even that raids before "endgame" matter more than other content - is arguably as inconsistant with the basic tenets of VR than focusing on solo play would be. Both are common in MMOs today but Pantheon is intended to be very different from current MMOs.
My own hope is that group content will give better rewards than solo rewards and this is almost a certainty. But also that they will give better rewards than raids. Group boss fights can be finely tailored and made as easy or difficult as the developers want them to be. Raids are larger and clumsier beasts and often wind up as trivially easy (if you can get enough players and have any success with herding cats) or as mindless dance routines where you follow the script or you wipe - rather than you and the enmies both use combat skills and the normal rules of combat, with luck a major factor, determine the outcome.
dorotea said:My own hope is that group content will give better rewards than solo rewards and this is almost a certainty. But also that they will give better rewards than raids. Group boss fights can be finely tailored and made as easy or difficult as the developers want them to be. Raids are larger and clumsier beasts and often wind up as trivially easy (if you can get enough players and have any success with herding cats) or as mindless dance routines where you follow the script or you wipe - rather than you and the enmies both use combat skills and the normal rules of combat, with luck a major factor, determine the outcome.
You think that group content can't be trivialized by bringing 3 groups to kill a mob designed for just 1? There is no fundamental difference between a group level boss and a raid level boss in terms of risk vs reward, degree of difficulty provided there exists some mechanic(s) that prevents you bringing more people than intended. Each can be 'finely tailored', as you put it, if the developers so choose.
The reward(s) should be commensurate with the level of effort needed to defeat the content and that means if a given class is not present then items in the loot table for that class should not drop, being replaced with and item(s) for the classes that are in attendance.
Raid loot has to be rare enough to encourage repeated replayability and extend the content as long as possible. By the time players are at the stage of the game where they are raiding they have already surpassed most of the games other content. At that point, raid loot is one of the few incentives keeping players around until the next expansion.
I'm completely fine with 12 person raids dropping 1 piece of loot, 24 dropping 2 and 40 person dropping 3 or 4.
dorotea said:This thread reflects the approach that raids are more important than other content and that rewards from raids are more important than other rewards and should be addressed with appropriate care. While that is entirely true in many MMOs I hope and expect that it will be different in Pantheon. The mindset that raids at "endgame" matter more than other content - or even that raids before "endgame" matter more than other content - is arguably as inconsistant with the basic tenets of VR than focusing on solo play would be. Both are common in MMOs today but Pantheon is intended to be very different from current MMOs.
My own hope is that group content will give better rewards than solo rewards and this is almost a certainty. But also that they will give better rewards than raids. Group boss fights can be finely tailored and made as easy or difficult as the developers want them to be. Raids are larger and clumsier beasts and often wind up as trivially easy (if you can get enough players and have any success with herding cats) or as mindless dance routines where you follow the script or you wipe - rather than you and the enmies both use combat skills and the normal rules of combat, with luck a major factor, determine the outcome.
Raid bosses require the gathering and coordination of 20+ people (In some games it can be 10+) who must be geared properly for the raid, which in itself is a monumental task. Plus most encounters are set up to be titanic threats to the world and typically end up as gods, demigods, dragons, mythical creatures in lore, masterminds, etc. The idea that the orc warlord Korgash the Mutilator should drop on par or better loot kind of defeats the idea of raid encounters. While raids are not the endgame, they're an important part and whoever can slay godbeings should be rewarded properly.
Vandraad said:The reward(s) should be commensurate with the level of effort needed to defeat the content and that means if a given class is not present then items in the loot table for that class should not drop, being replaced with and item(s) for the classes that are in attendance.
I'll disagree with this just on the principle of the fact that I alt. I'm sure everyone has at least one alt. If we're in a raid and no one is playing a paladin but the boss drops a really really good Paladin hammer, the people who do have paladin alts should be allowed to potentially get an item for their alts. Especially if it's set up to where you need to basically progress through raids to get gear for the next tier of raids (I hope its not tbh because i've always thought BiS for every class should be spread throughout the entire endgame rather than there being different tiers of BiS).
Praecant said: ...I'll disagree with this just on the principle of the fact that I alt. I'm sure everyone has at least one alt. If we're in a raid and no one is playing a paladin but the boss drops a really really good Paladin hammer, the people who do have paladin alts should be allowed to potentially get an item for their alts. Especially if it's set up to where you need to basically progress through raids to get gear for the next tier of raids (I hope its not tbh because i've always thought BiS for every class should be spread throughout the entire endgame rather than there being different tiers of BiS).
IMO:
If Pantheon is going down the path of rewarding non-participants (by allowing exactly what you're hoping for) then this leads to a bunch of historically proven/demonstrated objectively very terrible emergent player behaviors. It is vital that unless a paying customer is present at the time of a/the interaction, and/or directly contributed to the success of that interaction, you get exactly nothing. To do otherwise invites .. badness. :)
Yes, this means that unless you were present and actively part of the fight, ideally, you can't even see the corpse, ever, no matter what.
Then, if it's a design goal, selling loot rights is no longer possible (among other things).
Rewarding non-participation / non-participants should not be a design tenet. In fact, it wasn't, up until August 2020:
"
An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
The World of Terminus is a fairly harsh and unforgiving one. There is no such things as a free lunch for the inhabitants and they will hold you to the same standard. To progess your character it is you who will need to be the driving force. Whether exploring, joining in groups and hunting in the depths of dungeons for lost treasure or merely killing bandits for the bounty ... it is your choice of how to progress. Apathy may keep you warm in front of the fire at the inn, but it will neither provide you the skill to make yourself a new coat, nor provide the cash to buy one instead.
"
But I suppose, now, that tenet could be ignored. :)
vjek said:Praecant said: ...If Pantheon is going down the path of rewarding non-participants (by allowing exactly what you're hoping for) then this leads to .... It is vital that unless a paying customer is present at the time of a/the interaction, and/or directly contributed to the success of that interaction, you get exactly nothing. To do otherwise invites .. badness. :)
You would seem to be making an arbitrary - and completely fallacious - difference between a character and a player. In the situation Praecant refers to, there is most certainly 'a participant', a 'paying customer' present and contributing to the success of the fight.
Vandraad was clearly arguing for some version of personal loot. Which is a legit position for him or you to have and support. But we have no evidence it WILL be what we get. And if it isn't, then Praecant's postion isn't remotely a violation of Pantheon Tenets.
Jothany said:vjek said:Praecant said: ...If Pantheon is going down the path of rewarding non-participants (by allowing exactly what you're hoping for) then this leads to .... It is vital that unless a paying customer is present at the time of a/the interaction, and/or directly contributed to the success of that interaction, you get exactly nothing. To do otherwise invites .. badness. :)
You would seem to be making an arbitrary - and completely fallacious - difference between a character and a player. In the situation Praecant refers to, there is most certainly 'a participant', a 'paying customer' present and contributing to the success of the fight.
Vandraad was clearly arguing for some version of personal loot. Which is a legit position for him or you to have and support. But we have no evidence it WILL be what we get. And if it isn't, then Praecant's postion isn't remotely a violation of Pantheon Tenets.
My point was that if a particular class is not present, items for that class would not drop. So if Praecant has his Paladin alt sitting somewhere, having not attended the fight, and there is no paladin that was present during the fight, no paladin item should drop. If he wants his alt to get something, then he should take his alt to the fight and earn it like everyone else. Even if Praecant attended the fight but played another class, nothing for a Paladin should drop if no Paladins were present.
So participant means the class being present and participating to the fight irrespective of the person. If you want something, show up with that class and hope something drops for that class.
Eh, on one hand in Everquest it was common to do all the work on one character and then have an alt inherit some of their stuff later. On the other, making boss drops no-drop would alleviate some problems. But ya know, we still run into the possibility of a Necro getting shaman gear in a 5 man dungeon crawl and just having to vendor it. As someone who plays a lot of Diablo 2 that just gets me x.x
Vandraad said: ...nothing for a Paladin should drop if no Paladins were present
Yes, I understood your position. I wasn't arguing with it. I'm not even sure whether I would prefer that system or not.
My reply was about the argument by vjek that having any loot drop that isn't clearly intended for one of the classes present is some kind of violation of Pantheon's tenets because it is somehow benefiting someone who isn't present.
IMO:
Nope, not what I meant in the slightest, Jothany. I see no distinction between a player and character, in the context of what you're describing.
The breakdown of the original tenets is rewarding non-participation. As in, you're not there, but getting a reward. Same as what Vandraad is saying: " So participant means the class being present and participating to the fight irrespective of the person. If you want something, show up with that class and hope something drops for that class. ", and I also agree with Iksar about the no-drop caveat.
But, it doesn't matter now, because those tenets are gone and they can go ahead and reward non-participation all they want. :D
Jothany said:You would seem to be making an arbitrary - and completely fallacious - difference between a character and a player.
IMO:
Rather than edit and add the quote..
I am not making any distinction between a character and a player. In the context of what you're describing, that is, "seem to be making an arbitrary - and completely fallacious - difference between a character and a player", I am not making that distinction.
I did not, nor ever would, make a distinction, in the context of what you're describing, between those two things. They are the same.
In the other context, that is, agreeing with Vandraad regarding you should not reward an absent player? 100% agree with that. If you're not there, you should get nothing.
vjek said:But, it doesn't matter now, because those tenets are gone and they can go ahead and reward non-participation all they want. :D
Actually, they are located here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/faq/what-are-pantheons-tenets/
I think I've figured out our disagreement. Praecant said "If we're in a raid and no one is playing a paladin but the boss drops a really really good Paladin hammer, the people who do have paladin alts should be allowed to potentially get an item for their alts". I'm thinking you assumed that she meant having her Paladin log in somewhere nearby and come loot. Whereas I assumed she meant winning a 'greed' roll for it and taking it home for the Paladin.
I have no problems with looting it on the character that participated in the fight and taking it home for an alt. As an altaholic - with hopefully several Crafters among my chars. - I hope we get high end loot drops that sometimes aren't useful to any Class in the fight, so we can take them home for uber Salvage or upgrades for an alt.
I also have no problem with a game mechanic that prohibits logging in a char. that didn't participate, in order to loot an item. I agree that possibility leads to 'commercialization' of the loot drops.
Whew, I think we're on the same page now :D
A lot of talk in this thread that sounds to me like..
Not a lot like the MMORPG I want to play.
Zorkon said:A lot of talk in this thread that sounds to me like..
- "Make Pantheon one of those rush to end game MMO's very few of us want to play"
- "Make Pantheon one of those MMO's with massive Stat Bloat very few of us want to play"
- "Make Pantheon one of those MMO's with deserted starting zone's very few of us want to play"
- "Make Pantheon just like every other MMO's very few of us want to play"
Not a lot like the MMORPG I want to play.
No idea where you got any of that from. If you read any of the other posts I've made you'd see almost all of those points are things i actively dislike.
Jothany said:Whereas I assumed she meant winning a 'greed' roll for it and taking it home for the Paladin.
I have no problems with looting it on the character that participated in the fight and taking it home for an alt. As an altaholic - with hopefully several Crafters among my chars. - I hope we get high end loot drops that sometimes aren't useful to any Class in the fight, so we can take them home for uber Salvage or upgrades for an alt.
Yeah pretty much this. I've always liked what i assume is an obvious priority system
If no one fits any of the criteria just send it to the guild bank or vendor it and send the money to the bank.
I agree that not being proportionally rewarded based on group size and the difficulty of the challenge is an issue. It's one of the reasons that I stopped raiding in WoW during its current expansion, the reward for my time, effort, and frustration just wasn't there. I did the latest raid (Castle Denatheria) on normal and loot was soo scarce that the thought of pushing into heroic or mythic and dealing with the same loot situation really didn't appeal to me.
Drop rates will need to be evaluated and weighed carefully for challenging content to keep people incentivized to keep playing. However, the concept of almost everything being subject to free trade will also have to be weighed in when evaluating drop rates. If drop rates are too frequent item inflation on the market is a potential issue.
There are also other factors that have to be considered when evaluating drop rates like
Overall drop rates will have to be evaluated as they impact how good a game feels to play. However, the only way to evaluate drop rates is to allow testers to feel them out when the time comes.
Vandraad said:dorotea said:My own hope is that group content will give better rewards than solo rewards and this is almost a certainty. But also that they will give better rewards than raids. Group boss fights can be finely tailored and made as easy or difficult as the developers want them to be. Raids are larger and clumsier beasts and often wind up as trivially easy (if you can get enough players and have any success with herding cats) or as mindless dance routines where you follow the script or you wipe - rather than you and the enmies both use combat skills and the normal rules of combat, with luck a major factor, determine the outcome.
You think that group content can't be trivialized by bringing 3 groups to kill a mob designed for just 1? There is no fundamental difference between a group level boss and a raid level boss in terms of risk vs reward, degree of difficulty provided there exists some mechanic(s) that prevents you bringing more people than intended. Each can be 'finely tailored', as you put it, if the developers so choose.
The reward(s) should be commensurate with the level of effort needed to defeat the content and that means if a given class is not present then items in the loot table for that class should not drop, being replaced with and item(s) for the classes that are in attendance.
1. If VR does a good job then group content will not be able to be trivislized by zerging it. Once the encounter is triggered maybe it will be in an area where only the group doing the triggering has access. Maybe only the group doing the triggering will be able to attack the mobs. Maybe VR will relent and have an instance for the final encounter once triggered (although not for the entire dungeon). Maybe some other device.
2. I firmly believe that the difficulty of a well designed group encounter will be harder than the difficulty of a raid. People keep saying how hard it is to organize a raid but i consider this close to irrelevant. Yes it is true but because a few people have to do the work to get a raid going why should all the characters that maybe did none of that work and have a very easy time of it because in a raid no one character makes much of a difference other than the main tanks and main healers get better drops than group members in group content where if any single one of them isn't on his or her game the encounter may be a failure?
Because normal group encounters dont usually include wipe mechanics?
Even then, the buffer is usually around 5 players (depending which 5) that you can lose. Any more than that and it's likely a wipe. And even then its not "easy" becasue getting people ready is the easy part, you still have to coordinate. Get offtanks to pull adds in the proper area, get dps to burst down the gem that gives the boss a damage boost, get healers to cleanse the mass disease that puts a heavy dot on the whole raid, etc. Anyone who thinks DPS have the easiest job in the world has never dealt with a Hamidon raid (or god forbid the original Hami raid).