Below is an excerpt from an article I'm writing for PantheonPlus. I thought this particular part was important enough to mention here. It was discussed briefly in glowing terms by programmers in their stream but I think it may have zoomed past some members of the community and it's worth thinking through the ramifications. See the below excerpt...
Caution: Huge beans falling! It was stated by VR in a recent stream that the separation of zones in the game world, the zone line where content is generated for the next piece, is completely arbitrary. The game world terrain, in its ENTIRETY, can be streamed to the player regardless which zone you are in. So, as in an action RPG with open world map, if you see a mountain cleft way off in the distant, that is really there, even if you have to load through a couple zones to get there. Here is the quote,
“…basically removes the… forced need to show load screens… We can stream the ENTIRE WORLD around the player as they walk around… Still will have zone boundaries in terms of gameplay, but it removes the requirement for having hard zone boundaries…
This bean has enormous ramifications for the map they have shown. That means since there truly are no breaks or dead zones in the actual map where an area is, in fact, unplayable. So…
In the past I have stated that part of the release of this map is a sense of lost wonder since we know where the zone lines are. This new bit of information mixed with one of JN’s older statements saying there will probably be some zone lines that are found as the game progresses that players find, means that it is no big deal to make ten zone load in spots from one zone to another since the map is contiguous and all terrain is streamed as the player moves through it. This brings back the beckon to explore the edges of the terrain, the mountain passes, the small caves that may run through the mountains. A zone line can be literally anywhere.
Here's hoping some of these zone lines have inhabitants who've decided that the convenient little shortcut cave is a nice place to put a shrine dedicated the Lashed King and don't take kindly to adventurers wandering in during their rituals of draining the blood of the local village's missing daughters.
Or a hermit who likes the place and will be happy to teach you to make frog stew.
I haven't had a chance to listen to the dev roundtable, but that's great to see. I never understood how Blizzard was able to implement that technology in WoW in 2004, and hardly any MMO I know of has taken advantage of it since. Above all things, having a seamless world with no/minimal loading screens is paramount to creating a cohesive world for explorers. Nothing is more jarring during gameplay than seeing a static zone line or a loading screen every 30 minutes in a world that is supposed to be "open".
I don't agree that zone lines necessarily damage the sense of open world. A zone line, to me, represents a 'scene change' in the 'movie' of my game. When I slip into a crevasse in a mountainside in Avendyr's Pass and I 'zone into' Halnir Cave, to me, that represents a few minutes (or longer) spelunking down into the cave to where the adventure really begins. As I say: It's a scene change skipping the less significant bits of reality in order to move along the narrative, like you would have in a movie.
Having said that, what VR have said about being *able* to show the entire world at any time has awesome potential because, zone lines aside, it means they *can*, if they *want* and if it is useful to the narrative of the game, show you what is really in the distance, which of course *does* greatly enhance the sense of a 'world' around you.
So, when you walk toward Avendyr's Pass from Thronefast, you can see the actual mountains in AVP along with any POIs big enough. You could perhaps see the current weather system in AVP if that's a thing and prepare for it... But, when you get to the rising valley floor that heads to AVP, the game can still 'zone you in' and transition you to the guard post on the AVP side of that valley, skipping perhaps a long uneventful walk.
This whole thing leaves VR free to design a world that still feels open and huge, but they can mess with the geography and 'transitions' as they need. If they want to add access from Thronefast to a zone that is 'physically' (in the game) not adjacent, they can add a zone line that represents that physical journey. Maybe you walk up to a mountain pass guard tower and, as you pass it, you zone into the valley on the other side of those mountains. Later on in the development of Pantheon, they could perhaps add a 'real' zone in those mountains that you need to traverse to make that journey *shrug* either way, the good thing is, they can *show* you whatever is in the distance even if they choose to *zone* you straight to it (or past it) when you head that way.
eunichron said:I haven't had a chance to listen to the dev roundtable, but that's great to see. I never understood how Blizzard was able to implement that technology in WoW in 2004, and hardly any MMO I know of has taken advantage of it since. Above all things, having a seamless world with no/minimal loading screens is paramount to creating a cohesive world for explorers. Nothing is more jarring during gameplay than seeing a static zone line or a loading screen every 30 minutes in a world that is supposed to be "open".
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes did basically the same thing.
Kalok said:eunichron said:I haven't had a chance to listen to the dev roundtable, but that's great to see. I never understood how Blizzard was able to implement that technology in WoW in 2004, and hardly any MMO I know of has taken advantage of it since. Above all things, having a seamless world with no/minimal loading screens is paramount to creating a cohesive world for explorers. Nothing is more jarring during gameplay than seeing a static zone line or a loading screen every 30 minutes in a world that is supposed to be "open".
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes did basically the same thing.
Except on HDD chunking felt like zoning.
BTW the full article is up here now if interested: https://www.pantheon.plus/article/54514f88-0e82-4963-8017-7bf9bcebf914
Counterfleche said: ... they tend to turn what is supposed to be a vast, open world into a claustrophobic, compartmentalised maze. It feels artificial, calling attention to itself as a deliberate game design element.
Curbs, man. Curbs. They are artificial design elements to keep your car from driving through someone's backyard or through a park or down a sidewalk. Nevertheless, they are important. I don't mind deliberate game design elements since these are actually games. Why can't summoners jump on the backs of their archementals and fly over the mountains? Some of these are necessary.
Playing Horizon lately, there are places on the decent sized map that the game prohibits you from going even though you can reach them through jumping up the mountain. It's obviously for content gating purposes mainly except around the edges of the map. And although I'd like to go there cuz it tells me I can't, it doesn't ruin the experience of the game for me personally.
But what VR has done by the way they have structured their "zones" as arbitrary on a contiguous map, it leaves to possibility of them changing those zone lines some point in the future and allowing trave where it was previously not possible. And that is exciting to me!
Kalok said:eunichron said:I haven't had a chance to listen to the dev roundtable, but that's great to see. I never understood how Blizzard was able to implement that technology in WoW in 2004, and hardly any MMO I know of has taken advantage of it since. Above all things, having a seamless world with no/minimal loading screens is paramount to creating a cohesive world for explorers. Nothing is more jarring during gameplay than seeing a static zone line or a loading screen every 30 minutes in a world that is supposed to be "open".
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes did basically the same thing.
Having zones was a specific design choice for Pantheon, I'm surprised if they are really getting rid of them. While there have definitely been changes, this is the quote from Brad about it:
Bragging about world size, or creating a truly seamless world, or using CPU and memory to create virtual mega-cities is all at odds with our objectives. I haven't even talked about zones vs. a 'seamless world' yet, and how being able to expand an area that needs expanding by simply inserting additional zones is critical to having sufficient content, and content *where* you want and need it. Is it less immersive? To some, sure, and I understand the argument well (remember that one of our chief goals with VG was to make it zoneless). But the negatives outweigh the positives in such a big way. Having to work with an outdoor world whose size is determined prior to all of the metrics and information gathered even into late beta is extremely challenging and arguably dangerous -- playing with fire, so to speak. How do you re-size an area dynamically like you can do with zones if the outside world has already, probably some time ago, been stitched together into a 'seamless' grid of 'chunks'?
Iksar said:Having zones was a specific design choice for Pantheon, I'm surprised if they are really getting rid of them. While there have definitely been changes, this is the quote from Brad about it:
Just to clear up what someone else on the thread may have said, this article is not saying that zones are going away. On the contrary, it is affirming VR said they do have zones, but where one zone ends and another begins is irrelevant to the terrain that is streamed to the client because zones are NOT created as individual terrain maps. The whole continent is one map and they arbitrarily set where one stops and another begins.
bigdogchris said:Kalok said:eunichron said:I haven't had a chance to listen to the dev roundtable, but that's great to see. I never understood how Blizzard was able to implement that technology in WoW in 2004, and hardly any MMO I know of has taken advantage of it since. Above all things, having a seamless world with no/minimal loading screens is paramount to creating a cohesive world for explorers. Nothing is more jarring during gameplay than seeing a static zone line or a loading screen every 30 minutes in a world that is supposed to be "open".
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes did basically the same thing.
Except on HDD chunking felt like zoning.
That doesn't make it any less "zoneless".
This post has been highlighted as part of my CM content, please continue the discussion and have fun! :)
"Hot Topic - New Map And Zone Beans From Kyle - Did you guys catch the beans dropping? Check out the community thread posted here and let us know your thoughts! https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/13041/new-map-and-zone-beans-from-kyle #MMORPG #CommunityMatters"
Ezrael said:I believe it's been stated that the red lines were legacy zone lines left in by accident and should have been removed, replaced by just the white zone line indicators.
Neither this nor Beno's theory are true according to Joppa. Although I don't know if he's clarified outside of the VIP Discord, so I'll hold off and hope he chimes in haha
Yeah I have not heard the actual Joppa clarification from outside VIP, but he can fix that pretty easily.... Ahem... Joppa....
You know, this leads to another pretty good community discussion since it is feasible: Should traversable zone lines be the rule or the exception? Would we rather be able to zone in from anywhere along the zone boundaries, or should we only have a limited amount of areas to change zones.
While it would be cool if it was the rule, it leaves a handy escape in a lot of battles, taking away some challenge and planning. I think I would prefer to have sporadic entry points between zones. And this is pretty simple since VR mentioned quite a long time ago now that when creating climbing, they made everything climbable then just revoke climbing where they want to limit travel.
They could even have a traversable zone line around every zone and gate the ability to reach it by limiting the ability to climb or run to it with hard boundaries. In this way, traversable zone lines could be an exploration feature that's gated by mob levels, your character's climbing ability, and ultimately by VR's discretion taking away all traversability. That way, you literally never know where you can or can't zone until you go try it. That is the height of tempting exploration by your players. what's over here? I dunny, I guess you gotta go find out...
The idea of discovering that one place you can get over a mountain through exploration—once you are able to climb that much—is intriguing. What if you're in Zone A and you see an area that you can't figure out how to reach. People talk about that area, and the strange creatures that roam its softly glowing towers.
Then you're climbing around in Zone B and you find a place far from any path where you can peer down between peaks and see a way down into the mystery area in Zone A. That's the only way in.
I keep looking at this map and wondering where the organic gather places will be. Where's the area where we gather to trade that are pathways between cities? The safe dell or pass that allows me to rest and chat with travelers and off load all my Banana Nut Bread or newt eyes that I have gathered or created.
Bazgrim said:Ezrael said:I believe it's been stated that the red lines were legacy zone lines left in by accident and should have been removed, replaced by just the white zone line indicators.
Neither this nor Beno's theory are true according to Joppa. Although I don't know if he's clarified outside of the VIP Discord, so I'll hold off and hope he chimes in haha
I can totally see this as being a nerdy "point of interest" easter egg, like the old joke of talking to someone from Maine for directions "take a left at the fork, not that one, but the one where the old red school house USED to be..." Some alpha Fantheons pointing out- ah this is where the OLD zone line was on the old maps. And the devs could be cute about it by spicing it up maybe with some ruins, or some lore, a marker with a sign "Kilsin died here" with "died here" crossed out and "LIVES" painted in red, or something- right next to a short, more annoying than anything- pitfall up to your neck that is illusion camoflaged like indiana jones 3 leap of faith art and you fall into. Too high to jump out of, too low to climb out so how ....? I can't... Wait up! you shout with your head visible at ground level.