From what we know, the environment in Pantheon will already have more influence on our characters than in other MMOs, with different climates and atmospheres. Our very (characters) survival already depends on being prepared for those :)
But of course, if we talk about "survival elements", that can mean more, like reliance on food/drink. Maybe hot/dry areas would require your character to drink more? Cold areas might require you to eat more to keep your health? That's something I would like to see for Pantheon (I think food/drink should be important). Should your character die without food/drink? I think not, but there can be downsides like no more health/mana regen.
Survival, to my understanding, also is about finding/building shelter in the wilderness. Would you need to build a shelter/fireplace first before you logout in the wilderness? What would happen if you don't? What about RL emergencies that require you to log off NOW? So IMO there should be no requirements for "logout preparations" or something like that.
I love the 'survival elements' that we know about so far, such as hostile climates and 'fractures'. I think having specific survival challenges in various times & places is great.
I would not like having a 'baseline' of survival needs such as food or drink that were needed regularly whenever one was in the world of Terminus. First because anything that is always there as a constant looses most of its fun after time, and becomes simply another detail to attend to. Secondly because of the inevitable intrusion into one's storage capacity - both space and burden - that it entails.
Having enough wood to make a campfire that allows mama or health regen. Coolmore wood=bigger fire = quicker regen. All cool.
Having to eat every X amount of time to keep from loosing health , boo. No thanks for the micromanage of consumables for maintaining the status.
Survival being, I received a curse or disease and will be hindered untill I can find a cure or solution,? Sound cool again. A curse that gives a benefit and a detrimental effect would be cooler still.
But I really really don't want prompts telling me I'm thirsty for no other reason besides a function of keeping the player busy.
Be creative and unique if you want to cause a survival element. Say I eat a bunch of elderberries. I ate them because they grant my character a +1 for dexterity. But the smell of the berries on me now attract bioluminescent moths of peculiar size and I can be swarmed thus interrupting my spells or buffs. Stuff like that is fun.
/You are thirsty.
/You are thirsty
/You are thirsty
/A swarm of plibble moths are trying to lick your eyeballs.
I love survival elements! Play project zomboid!
In Pantheon I think survival plays in simply because the goal is to make a world.
Yes, we can't make it realistic, but filling the game with required items helps both with money sinks and, as has been mentioned, babysitting our characters to foster attachment.
Diseases or curses or hexes or poisons that give a reasonable debuff (not so much it will actively screw you over but not so little it'll be barely a nuisance) and last a long long time without proper tools/spells to cleanse would be a fine addition. A stacking debuff to regeneration the more and more you go without eating or drinking makes sense if its a reasonable amount of time between stacks being gained (you can go more than an hour without drinking but after a few hours you'll start to feel the effect). Plus you can add in a foraging button to try and find bits of food or drink river water with each zone having its own flavor and percentage of contracting a debuff (probably not a good idea to drink downstream from the troll camp).
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Survival Elements In MMORPG's, Yes or No and please explain why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I'm going to assume that this is mostly in reference to MMORPGs in general and not Pantheon. If I remember correctly, Joppa has said he doesn't want food to be a requirement ie you are starving if you don't click on the food. I could be remembering this incorrectly. I like survival games. I like MMORPGs. I haven't played a combination of both that I enjoyed. I tried the New World test and didn't care for it. I do like Don't Starve Together multiplayer, but I wouldn't consider this an MMO.
To me most survival games at least start with food and shelter. They also focus on the individual more than a group or collective. I like the crafting aspect of survival games. They provide a different sense of progression starting with sticks/stones and building shelters and progressing into more complex structures. I've never tried Valheim or several other survival games that seem to be popular, so this my opinion may be based more on my lack of experience rather than lack of interest.
To sum up, I'm not opposed to the idea, but I haven't experienced a successful combination of MMORPG & Survival.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Survival Elements In MMORPG's, Yes or No and please explain why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Isn't everything we do to stay alive a survival element? Sure, I know you're talking about the typical stuff like food and drink, but there is also the need for armor, weapons, abilities and in the case of Pantheon, spells. Oh, and we group up because there is safety in numbers. Then we kill things before they kill us. So it's already full of survival elements if you think about it. VR just needs to make them all necessary and, in the case of consumables, actually consumed at different rates based upon the environment.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Survival Elements In MMORPG's, Yes or No and please explain why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Survival Elements are great IF they pull you into the game. Using land marks and a compass to navigate a crude map is incredibly immersive, for example. For me, survival mechanics become detrimental when they pull you into a different miniature game of upkeep that takes up all your time. Spending all day foraging or farming to be able to afford to feed and house your character for a couple of days, for example. I think every survival element has the opportunity to slide into one of these two camps. The trick is to not have too many survival systems in one game and to make sure interacting with the survival of the game coincides with the natural gameplay. In other words, don't plague the gameplay by turning our characters into tamagotchi.
I think you should be able to die from lack of food and water, but I dont think it should be just because of a series of messages or emotes you choose to ignore, but rather a growing impact on gameplay that is tangible and for which you are informed as the event happens. With a twist when it comes to magic effectrs of buffs used to counter.
For instance, No food then Sta and Str start to drop -1 after x days, -2, -1 after x+y days, -4 -2 after X + z days. etc. the starving player will find they cant weild the 2hander- because they are too weak, the caster unable to cast a spell for loss of concentration from being famished. The player caster and melee find they cannot run but have to only walk because they are becoming malnourished. Likewise with water, Vision can get blurry intermittently (like drunk effects? but different) wounds take longer to heal for HoT spells or dont heal as completely I would say Agi and Dex would be affected in the same manner over time. After a while you begin to see negative numbers on your stats and you have to eat something to stop the shakes. but those stats only go up slowly. Think how anorexic's have to be slowly nourished back to a body healthy state. it doesnt happen by suddenly having them eat 3 meals a day, partly because their body can't handle that much intake yet.
But what if you power through, by having someone just cast buffs on you to boost strength, etc. That would be like taking No-Doz to pull an all nighter....for days. Sure, it will work but once you get off the buff, you fade fast. I can see random effects, jerky disorientation, periods of reduced single stats that change randomly causing unpleasant events that the player has to adapt to unless they get rest and proper nourishment. in the case of buffs, the jerky effects continue untill the effects are burned out of the system, This is complicated by receiviing the same buffs while eating, giving you a crazy boost for a short time (+10str!) then 10min later- like anaphylactic shock- 0str for 12 hours; you cant even lift your arms, you have to sit for a period of time just to get enough sta to take a few steps. and the same str buff if cast again now paralyzes you for oh 5 min? because you're strung out.
I think its doable and can be put to math. I think the same should be considered for resists. if you're a newbie and you get a frost goblin skin with +2 fire resist, and you choose to put that on in the lava caves to replace your nice robe when dealing with the flame spinner spiders, that should be a noticible advantage. or if an event has only fire damage coming from one area, and part of the group is sent to deal with it and they replace all their gear with much lower end gear- but that gear is all fire resistant? that should be a greater advantage than their "better" current gear. they just have ot be careful if then joining back into regular fighting with the group.
I'm reminded of Subnautica. It *is* mostly a survival game, but even in that, if you had to constantly hunt fish and whatnot for food and water it would become a pain.
What they did, and what would work for any game, is made it an important part of the game early on, but made it something that is less of an issue later on when other 'bigger' issues are much more important and fun.
Early on, yes, it perhaps should be an issue that you need to plan for how long your adventure is and prepare that amount of food and water.
In Subautica, you would be hand-catching fish and maybe having to eat them raw and use precious bottles of forraged water if you got caught out. Later on you made an 'electric knife' that could cook fish as you killed them. Later than that you made yourself a dive suit that reclaimed your own fluids (euw! hehe). Even later you could build a desalination machine. Etc.
In Pantheon, you will perhaps, eventually, be able to afford to buy much longer lasting food and water or have the skills to forage when out in the wilds.
It shouldn't be a mundane chore forever, but could perhaps be a meaningful part of the adventure when you are learning your way and give you a sense of respect for the world (and added immersion).
Sorry but I have no idea what you mean by "survival elements".
Do you mean elements of a so-called survival game. Probably the fewer of these the better but there may be many things I would like that I simply am not aware are in survival games. It isn't a genre I play. In the unlikely event you actually want useful answers and aren't just asking questions to keep us entertained - you might consider specifying a few such elements and getting feedback on them. Perhaps in a future "keep the forums active" thread.
Do you mean abilities that help a character survive when things go bad? Often called by names such as "oh crap" abilities. Feign death, evac and their kin. Yes please I would like these.
Do you mean elements of old games surviving into this modern age. Remnants of such ancient games as UO, EQ, DAOC The Realm and the like. Obviously all of us want this or we wouldn't be here.
Not being a fan of survival games so I am generally not in favour of survial elements in the game ast least not as they are implemented in surival games where their implementation is aimed at promoting player death. Whilst the survival genre and MMO genre have lots of people in them they are different and VR is not pitching PRoTF as a survival game so care should be taken to not pull in too much from the survival genre.
The big one that has already mentioned which is the food and drink penalty system, this is essentially pointless busy work and should be avoided which I believe Joppa has already said was going to be the case so fingers crossed this position has not changed. There will be a minority of players who will enjoy it for immersion or role play aspects but this is going to be a small % of the final player base maybe even as low as single digits (this forum is not representative of the final player base). It might make for an interesting additional feature on role play servers if they be available but it should be relegated to those servers and not exposed to the general population.
Poisons, curses, magical afflictions and the like may have a place but they must work within the context of an MMO and not a survival game. If you are posioned you loose HP over time thats fine, but thats all it does, it doesn't also cripple your STR or DEX or reduce your movement speed or prevent you from eating. Dont over-punish players.
If you absolutely must bring in survival mechanics then convert them from punishment mechanics into reward mechanics. So eating/drinking gives you a bonus whilst not eating/drinking means no bonus.
Survival is often a major piece of the game or a foot note. I can't imagine it would ever be a major piece of Pantheon, so I have to say no to survival. Half assing survival will simply make it a chore. For example, everyone has an instant teleporter from what I have heard. The risk of survival simply wont be there when anyone can simply say "I'm goen home now" Learn from the table top games. Survival needs to be the main focus or handwaved.
I would gladly play a slow paced survival focused MMO where there are no NPC vendors to hand you what you need half the time. A fully crafting based MMO where you have PCs selling consumables and required items at a premium. The logistics of player outposts helping only those who they choose.
There will be no scenarios such as taking a party treking weeks into a massive jungle with no easy way back. Perhaps you stumble upon a druid enclave willing to help out a bit because one of the party members has a high enough faction with them. None of that sounds like Pantheon.
After reading through the existing posts, I can see fun with both sides of the coin (adding survival elements vs leaving them out). However, in general, I would lean more towards "no, leave the survival elements to the survival games." As some have mentioned, Pantheon does have some survival elements already built in. But the idea of having to micro-manage my character does not appeal to me in MMOs. If I want that, I'll just go play 7 Days to Die.
Yes, because survival elements are already present in pretty much every MMO. Whether or not the player base recognizes them and considers them as such is a different matter. However, needing a higher item level to take hit, avoiding damage, needing elemental resist gear for a certain encounter, needing to attune your character so they can pass through an area unharmed are all examples of survival elements in MMOs.
Even Pantheon has already stated there will be some form of survival elements. The acclimation process which negates damage from environments is a survival element. The need for specialized items to deal with certain specialized conditions is a survival element. I'm sure there will some form of resist gear or resist buffs preferred for certain encounters which is a survival element. There are also dark areas that need light sources and this is a survival element.
Now in terms of what most people consider survival elements, I'm not really for them. I would be sort of ok with is needing to carry food and water to prevent starvation and dehydration provided there are classes that summon food and water. I would also be ok with seeing traps that may be poison, bleed, slow... etc.
I don't want to see
Personally, I believe that all MMOs have survival elements they just take a different form in practice. In terms of "true" survival elements like the ones mentioned above they have their place in survival-based games, but not really traditional fantasy-based MMOs. I think Pantheon has a bit more leeway when it comes to how far it can push into the realm of survival elements due to how the world and climates are being designed, but some things should still be avoided based on how tedious they could become.
I think some basic survival things in a role playing game is good. I mean, I don't want a 4x UI to manage resources, but having food/water and possibly clothing impact on climates (which Pantheon is sort of having) I think can be good.
There are many ways to impliment systems to roleplay character development. It doesn't always just have to be about gaining a level and crafting an item. There are a lot of meta-game elements to RPG that older games had that are missing in modern games because of the need to dumb the game down for the middle of the road audience.
No; When you say ‘survival’ where we need to micromanage ourselves (eat, drink, sleep and relieve ourselves)….then it is an astounding NO.
I’d like to remind us that Pantheon is not striving to be a ‘real life simulator’.
Bastardizing Pantheon into a synthesis of a traditional MMORPG–Survival ‘muh immersion’ game sounds a lot like feature creep and could potentially make it overly cumbersome to even play. Remember, at the end of the day we want to play Pantheon for fun, not to emulate the burdens of reality we so often try to escape from. There are niche survival games for that kind of experience, but it doesn’t belong in Pantheon. Considering the complexity and depth Pantheon is aiming to achieve; difficult Enemy AI/dispositions, longer than usual level grinds, acclimation to environment, etc etc. I think we will have enough to keep us engaged.
Imagine needing to relieve your character in the middle of a raid. I’ll pass.
I've changed my mind form reading the posts. I agree with the senttiment that harsh survival mechanics should not be in game. ( like the ones I have described)
However, I would like to see a soupcon of survival based mechanics to make it fun or be entertaining. I think not haviing food or water should be a thing and have effects, but they should be like drunk effects that also have a hidden benefit. (see: poor mans KEI from getting drunk + good alchohol tolerance in old EQ)
Or a hidden benefit from starving around skeletons- not undead- because... you are as un nourished as they all skin and...mostly bones so maybe a small faction modifier with only skeletons. Dry areas making you drink more and if you have alchohol suddenly finding yourself drinking all your booze and being more affected because of the heat- perhaps like DnD rules, being drunk = unfearable? that kind of thing.
From starving to eating a bite of food being suddenly envigorating for a second or two- that could be cute (Think danny Kaye in the court jester when he is hypnotized and changes character when he hears a person snap their fingers- starring a young Mrs teapot, too~! angela lansbury)
something along the lines of what DuxDux mentioned and StoneFish.
I waited on this one because I was not sure how I felt. But, yes there should be survival elements. What and how much should be based on the world of Pantheon. The Acclimation system is already in, better to have a robust system that ties in this system nicely. if the crafting system includes food and drink, they yes require it. if the crafting system includes clothing and leather goods, then yes require winter type gear.
make this game challanging. make player plan for a dungeon excursion. Offer the opportunity for a crafter to sell goods to players,who are failing to plan. The crafter makes money and the player who needs extra supplies can pay the crafter. supply and demand.
if a certain percentage of players feel it will probally be too much of an inconvenience, then VR is probally on the right track.