Community Debate - Leader boards - How do you feel about in-game or external leader boards for games like Pantheon that track kills, deaths, biggest server damage recorded, time without dying, hours played etc and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Pantheon is not a competition (or is it now?). So there is absolutely no point for such statistics IN GAME. The only thing that I would say is ok would be recognition for first-time clears of raids. There could be memorials for difficult raids which list the first guild to ever clear them (is there a point to list other guilds however after them? I would say no).
That said, I would not mind if there were an external website for character profiles, and these could include more statistics of course for those who like such things. Although played hours should probably never be published, for data privacy concerns.
IMO:
Every time I've seen them done, they do at least these two things wrong, for months or years:
They don't reset them monthly.
They don't fix the bugs that cause people to produce max_variable_limit values in each field. (usually a SHRT_MAX or USHRT_MAX)
What does that mean? It means if the largest value for damage is a signed SHRT_MAX INT, then somewhere, somehow, due to a bug or exploit, some lamer found a way to produce this value. So, their name (usually Yourmom, Snusnu or similar) is always and forever at the top of the leaderboards, making them not only pointless, but a pointless mockery of anything resembling competition, reality or value. :)
So, stated positively, if you're planning on putting these things in Pantheon? Reset them monthly, and fix the bugs that cause max_variable_limits to be reached, used, read and stored in less than 28 days.
In general, our guild ignores all leaderboards and advances at our own pace. We don't play primarily PvP focused games anymore, and I have yet to see a fantasy-themed first/third person PvE MMO with a meaningful leaderboard.
I agree with the less-than-positive comments above.
Sorry Sarim but I emphatically disagree with the idea of leaderboards just for raids. That would make it look as if VR considers raids more important than other content. I think the opposite should be true in a game focused very much on group play and on world building and exploration rather than racing to maximum level to raid which is the current MMO meme.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Leader boards - How do you feel about in-game or external leader boards for games like Pantheon that track kills, deaths, biggest server damage recorded, time without dying, hours played etc and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Not a fan of "leader boards". They make the game play all about "It's all about me". It is no longer about the social aspect of the game. It's people using people to get to the top of the "leader board". This is a narcissist's dream.
Nah. Leaderboards and the like are, I believe, a part of what has taken the genre in the 'wrong direction'.
It may be subtle, but what you (VR) encourage or idealise directly or otherwise will impact the kind of game Pantheon is.
Would a leaderboard have categories like "Most helpful"? "Most liked"? "Best group synergising"? If so, it might have a good influence. If it's the usual "Highest DPS", "Most gold" stuff, then not so much.
Kalok said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - Leader boards - How do you feel about in-game or external leader boards for games like Pantheon that track kills, deaths, biggest server damage recorded, time without dying, hours played etc and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Not a fan of "leader boards". They make the game play all about "It's all about me". It is no longer about the social aspect of the game. It's people using people to get to the top of the "leader board". This is a narcissist's dream.
What if the leaderboard's are for guilds, and not individual achievement? Perhaps it's still all about me ('me' being the guild), being more important than any other guild.
What if the leaderboard's are for servers and not guilds? First server to down a boss or fastest to complete a sequence of fights, or first server to complete a server wide gathering event?
What if there was a server event where you had to race across the continent, and a leaderboard for it? Or a leaderboard for who has caught the biggest prized fish which might lead to a monthly reward from the King of Thronefast (being the competive angler that he no doubt is).
I do understand these ideas aren't exactly along the lines of Kilsin's example, but I would suggest to all of us to not be so quick to be absolute. I think there might be some interesting ways to have leaderboards for the competitive folks without harming the game.
For the PvE players & servers - absolutely not.
In a game overtly focused on cooperation at multiple levels, having Leaderboards with those kinds of stats is extremely counterproductive to VR's stated goal of making the journey more important than the destination. The old cliche "shooting yourself in the foot" comes to mind.
Keeping such stats absolutely encourages the fastest possible consumption of game content. And reinforces the tendency - in those who are already inclined to play that way - to ignore any & all esthetic qualities of the game that don't directly contribute to measurable progression.
If such stats can be made available for PvP players & servers - without making it unduly easy for those same stats to be collected on PvE servers - then it's fine to do so for them (if they want it). Competition is already the basis of their gaming style.
Jothany said:For the PvE players & servers - absolutely not.
In a game overtly focused on cooperation at multiple levels, having Leaderboards with those kinds of stats is extremely counterproductive to VR's stated goal of making the journey more important than the destination. The old cliche "shooting yourself in the foot" comes to mind.
Keeping such stats absolutely encourages the fastest possible consumption of game content. And reinforces the tendency - in those who are already inclined to play that way - to ignore any & all esthetic qualities of the game that don't directly contribute to measurable progression.
If such stats can be made available for PvP players & servers - without making it unduly easy for those same stats to be collected on PvE servers - then it's fine to do so for them (if they want it). Competition is already the basis of their gaming style.
I mostly agree with everyone's take on stat leaderboards being more harmful than good, but to play devils adovcate, if you are a self proclaimed non competitive player in a guild that is all about the journey, why do you care if the top few "competitive content clearing" guilds have some leaderboards to show off who is best?
If the top 5 damage totals on a raid boss are displayed somewhere, how does that negatively affect your non competetivie guild / mind set?
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Leader boards - How do you feel about in-game or external leader boards for games like Pantheon that track kills, deaths, biggest server damage recorded, time without dying, hours played etc and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Completely against them in about every instance I can think of, especially when it comes to PVE. They seem to go directly against what VR has mentioned about no level on gear and meaningful horizontal progression. It seems like it would put the focus on a race to the end and BIS gear that would bump up the player one or two points higher. It would also encourage players/guilds to compete in different ways like monopolizing content for points or keeping others from completing content that might give them points as a form of competition.
PVP on the other hand does seem like it could have this element that would fit well. Something along the lines of a Most Wanted list for players/guilds where you get points for killing players higher up on the Wanted List.
Stats are always fun but I agree with the views above that it would likely have more negative consequences than positive. My main worry would be the even more likely scenario of monipolisation of content and general egotistical and narcisstic behaviour competitve gameplay can often bring (I would generally avoid this kind of player anyway but it could entrench on my own fun with blocking of quests/content etc)
For a purely PvP game, leaderboards make a lot of sense. EVE online puts enormous amounts of data at the hands of people postkill although they do conceal the winning loadout...luckily the high deathrate allows a little bit of info to be had
I'm not suggesting that this is in any way beneficial for this game.
If optimizing stats and competition remains of interest to anyone, then the information that comes from killboards will help drive competition and having played EVE over the course of 10 years or so, it's fun to put bragging rights out there sometimes...for PvP...community in Eve was created out of survival and epic-ness of huge space battles in a sandbox
Thats not what I invested in this game for...I would be surprised if there are many folks that did invest in this game for the PvP.
When and if there is a PvP server created for PRotF, I hope the devs will be cautious with the amount of information released to support killboards to avoid unmasking all of the algorithms behind the gameplay....
Otherwise, let them brag about how my PvP alt was slaughtered on the PvP server just trying to harvest some iron.. My main will still be safely nestled in a PvE server somewhere, dying for robots
Kass said:I mostly agree with everyone's take on stat leaderboards being more harmful than good, but to play devils adovcate, if you are a self proclaimed non competitive player in a guild that is all about the journey, why do you care if the top few "competitive content clearing" guilds have some leaderboards to show off who is best?
If the top 5 damage totals on a raid boss are displayed somewhere, how does that negatively affect your non competetivie guild / mind set?
Your questions are 'straw men'. They are asking me to defend claims that I did not make. If you ask about what I DID say, I'll be happy to discuss.
Pantheon places great emphasis on cooperation between players. Pantheon has been described by Brad and other Devs as being as much - or more - about the journey as the destination. If you think this assesment is wrong, feel free to say why and we can discuss.
I believe that Leaderboards would be bad for PvE servers in Pantheon because having them gives some very handy tools - and thus encouragement - to those who place significant focus on competing against other players as part of success in a PvE. I see no logical reason to expect players who embrace that kind of competition to rush to embrace the type of cooperation between players that VR hopes to see in a game "overtly focused on cooperation".
Competition to be first at everything (or as many things as possible) also "encourages the fastest possible consumption of game content". Which puts pressure on the Devs to come up with new content as quickly as possible to keep them paying a subscription. VR has stated repeatedly that they want Pantheon to be done well, rather than quickly. I assume they feel the same way about expansions. For this reason as well, I see leaderboards as counterproductive.
TL:DR Game mechanics that help and encourage competition between players or guilds in a PvE game are IMO generally, on average, in most cases, antithetical to fostering cooperation between those same players and guilds.
Sarim said:Pantheon is not a competition (or is it now?). So there is absolutely no point for such statistics IN GAME. The only thing that I would say is ok would be recognition for first-time clears of raids. There could be memorials for difficult raids which list the first guild to ever clear them (is there a point to list other guilds however after them? I would say no).
That said, I would not mind if there were an external website for character profiles, and these could include more statistics of course for those who like such things. Although played hours should probably never be published, for data privacy concerns.
My exact opinion, well said.
Kass said:I mostly agree with everyone's take on stat leaderboards being more harmful than good, but to play devils adovcate, if you are a self proclaimed non competitive player in a guild that is all about the journey, why do you care if the top few "competitive content clearing" guilds have some leaderboards to show off who is best?
If the top 5 damage totals on a raid boss are displayed somewhere, how does that negatively affect your non competetivie guild / mind set?
You say you mostly agree, so you probably know the answer: Because for VR to have a leaderboard is for 'the game' to encourage a certain type of 'best' playstyle which some players will be tempted to go for at the expense of perhaps developing the less 'measurable' aspects of the game and that would effect everyone to a greater or lesser degree.
Imagine some people out for a lovely walk at the park, having a chat, developing friendships, planning the day's park-related activities, then someone pulls out a stopwatch and says "Right! I think I can make it around the perimeter in 2 minutes! That's the time to beat!" and runs off. Some (most) will just think "Huh? Why? No thanks, I'm not out for a run" and carry on with their visit together. A couple will be delighted and run off to try and catch/beat him. A few will be torn because they were having a great time, but might also enjoy the run and occasionally break into a run even though they stay with the walkers. A few will have stayed but be constantly distracted by the runners, wondering what their time would be. A few will feel bad because they aren't good at running if they wanted to or not...
Normal stuff in some ways, I suppose, but what Kilsin is suggesting is that the people who *arranged* and are *running* the park visit have stopwatches and are timing aspects of everything you do. The feeling will be you are perhaps *supposed* to be running, jumping, eating the most picnic, or whatever and doing those things faster/more than everyone else is the idea or the ideal.
TL;DR: When someone organising an event gets out a stopwatch and a trophy, it changes the feel of the event greatly for most people. If it wasn't intrinsically a 'competitive' event in the first place, it is once you add a leaderboard.
I always thought that one of the philosophies of Pantheon was to promote a helping and inclusive community. As soon as you introduce competition of this type, then I believe that cooperation will become less and less important and I just don’t see the point. Maybe I could see tools like these available for guilds that are interested in this type of stuff, however, if these were available, then each guild needs to "opt in" to such a system rather than it being the de facto standard and the measures should only be made between participating guilds. Personally, I would seek out a guild without such inclusion.
The more there is competition (real, perceived or artificially introduced) then the less likely you will have cooperation between groups and guilds and the community at large. The more you state that x-type of player is the best, then the more you will have people wanting to be that type at the detriment of all else.
For instance, if you have a simple leader board of most kills, then you will have significant numbers of players chomping on the easiest and most prolific mobs there are at the expense of everyone trying to play to the game as an adventure; never mind powerful guilds monopolising areas. This will cause friction to the detriment of the community.
Rather than spending time on creating leader boards, spend the time on game content and updating the web pages, please.
A leaderboard for arena fights only might work, assuming there will be arenas. Those bragging rights could motivate players on PVE servers to try their hands at PVP, which might even lead them to start characters over on the PVP server(s). However, from what's been stated so far, classes won't play the same on PVE servers as they will on PVP servers; how significant those differences will be could lead to some unrealistic expectations, when switching from PVE arenas to PVP servers.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Leader boards - How do you feel about in-game or external leader boards for games like Pantheon that track kills, deaths, biggest server damage recorded, time without dying, hours played etc and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I dislike them. As pointed out above, they become an e-peen contest which, just look at the few choices you offered, really leaves out a lot of classes. Time without dying? Exploitable...log in an alt, stand in a building in Thronefast and never log out. You get a two-for-one for the number of hours played too.
Don't bother putting in the effort to make one that exists in-game. VR, you have better things to do with its limited money and staff.
I think leaderboards have a place in ARPGS and games that are strictly PVP-related. I don't think they have much of a place in traditional MMOs unless there is a competitive PvP environment, but even then I'm not really for the community environment they help promote.
In terms of having a leader board for PvE content, I am completely almost completely against the idea. I think that leader boards in PVE shift the focus from fun adaptive gameplay and put emphasis on meta comps. meta setups, and perfect gameplay.
In my opinion, one of the things that really damaged WoW was their mythic dungeons. They added leader boards to this PVE content and used it to jump into the E-sports scene by promoting their Mythic Dungeon Invitationals. This decision has had a lasting effect on the base community and core gameplay. Personally, I don't think that any MMORPG focused on PvE should try to make itself into an E-sport, or add systems that basically push it towards becoming an E-sport.
I think that in general leader boards are great for highlighting individual players, but really fail when it comes to highlighting the community. It might be cool to see leader boards for events that rank guild participation towards goals or special events, or leader boards that pit servers against each other and compare contribution aspects. However, I don't think that leaderboards that highlight a specific individual or put emphasis on perfect gameplay are really healthy to a game in general.
