Interesting topic.
IMO the answer depends primarily on how much population the game can handle. If there is a city zone where many player meet, it will probably be fairly taxing for both the server side (to handle so many players in one place) and the players's PCs (which have to load and display all those armors, textures etc). For such a situation I would wish that people cannot afk for long time. Long time for me is a period longer than a typical short "bio" break, or even a bit longer break to eat something quickly. But if you have to be afk for longer than say, 15 minutes? Then you would help the server and other players by logging off.
Another factor is how long it takes to log in. If this goes quickly, people wont worry about it. But if we have to sit for minutes each time the game is loading. Or worse, sit in a queue waiting for the game to let us in? Then you can bet people will do all they can to stay online.
So, if you ask me: If a city hub zone always takes a long time to load into, because there's always so many people there? Then by all means, implement an auto afk kick after say, 15 minutes. But it should be limited to those zones, not apply always.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - AFK Kicked - How long do you think a game should allow you to remain logged in and idle before kicking you back to the character select or login screen and why? (Keeping in mind things like server performance, costs etc.) #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Never. This isn't circa 2000 where we're on dial-ups/DSL and servers are run off single core machines. AFK does not place even a minute burden on a server so to kick people off after some period of inactivity for 'server performance' issues is complete and utter bunk. Given that we've been told that player selling of items will require active participation, actually hawking your wares instead of a current-EQ1-style Bazaar alt, people who are very into the market portion of the game could be actively monitoring the ebb and flow of a market without typing much or moving.
If VR insists on automatic log-outs after some set period of inactivity, then just say it that way, don't try and make it seem like you're doing everyone some huge favor in terms of server performance because that will be nothing but a lie.
Vandraad - you seem to be saying that Kilsin's reference to server performance and costs is wrong. With all due respect I think he probably knows more about how indefinite afks will affect VR's servers and systems than you do. Also I fail to see the problem you are worried about - assuming that any action removes afk status and not just moving.
Sarim is obviously correct in that the ease of logging back in is a major consideration. So too is whether you are booted to the log in screen or the character select screen. Some games boot players from character select fairly quickly as well - some do not.
I think 15 minutes to 30 minutes is reasonable from the player's perspective. I have no desire for the game to allow us to be online indefinitely killing mobs or doing other things when we aren't even at the keyboard. I very much hope that crafting while afk will not be possible - at least not more than for trivial amounts. Unlike LOTRO where you can gain tier after tier crafting while not even there.
I am assuming that as Kilsin implies but does not actually say there is some server/cost benefit to booting the afk. But even if not I probably would like this to be done to prevent abuses. Or inconveniences to other players - some idiot or rude person *always* seems to go permanently afk in front of a questgiver. Usually with a large pet or mount out.
But if we can be booted to character select rather than log-in that will be convenient. If we have to be booted to log-in not needing to reenter the password we already entered will be convenient.
Whilst there obviously is *some* server performance impact from AFK characters (the server still has to check and report the meta data for, and to, AFK characters), I'm doubting it's a big technical deal these days, but there should still be some limit just to stop places getting cluttered up when an AFK character has clearly no intention of returning. An hour?
Maybe if they specifically used an /afk command to notify the game, they should get longer?
I think 60 minutes or longer is OK. Shorter than 60 minutes probably not because the player could be waiting for a spawn or something. Sometimes I would /afk and still be there just watching the screen and not doing any input.
Vandraad said:Never. This isn't circa 2000 where we're on dial-ups/DSL and servers are run off single core machines. AFK does not place even a minute burden on a server so to kick people off after some period of inactivity for 'server performance' issues is complete and utter bunk. Given that we've been told that player selling of items will require active participation, actually hawking your wares instead of a current-EQ1-style Bazaar alt, people who are very into the market portion of the game could be actively monitoring the ebb and flow of a market without typing much or moving.
If VR insists on automatic log-outs after some set period of inactivity, then just say it that way, don't try and make it seem like you're doing everyone some huge favor in terms of server performance because that will be nothing but a lie.
Even though the player is not performing any input, the server is still keeping track of that player and sending them data about what is going on in the world around them. There is a lot more going on then just the bandwidth. If you have hundreds of players sitting there AFK then the server is holding secure connections to them which do take up resources. The database caching systems do not have the ability to hold infinite connections - there is a limit. Also-VR is using AWS which means they have to pay for all of that clock cycle and memory of people sitting there not playing. Think about it like keeping the lights on when you leave the room.
To me it depends on the type of gameplay Pantheon ends up implementing. Do we have very long camps for rare bosses? Are there auction houses or are we sitting in an "EC Tunnel" waiting to sell, or an EQ Bizzare situation? These types of situations would dictate the length of time needed for "afk's". Until we know these types of game dynamics I wouldn't want to guess at how long an afk should last.
Take the longest unreasonable biobreak time, double it.
If someone AFKs and ends up dying that is on them, camping is always an option. It is a nice gamble. Let the sand giant stomp the AFK PC.
If someone AFKs in a group too long the group can kick them.
Short of someone AFKing multiple hours I think the problem is minor.
I see it from a social/emotional perspective.
Did you ever see the movie "Surrogates"? There is a scene where the main characters come upon a secondary character and interact with him only to be met with no response. As they are investigating a murder and this was a key witness, they look at each other suspecting foul play when suddenly the secondary character acknowledges them and responds "sorry, I was in the bathroom"
If you want to be with someone and they are "on" (in-game) how long will you wait? I mean these days with ghosting being somewhat the norm, people getting numb to the forever "..." in texting (just send me the botched sentence! I wont care! speech-to-text word salads!). I tend to get impatient and move on.
I think what's also important is not only being kicked for being AFK for so long, but also being auto-flagged as AFK if being inactive for so long.
If you put up afk intentionally I think auto kick should go at 45min- because you meant to come back in a reasonable amout of time to interact but RL caught up. If you are inactive for 10min and you are flagged as afk by the system, and remain inactive for another 10min, then a banner on the screen saying you will be logged after 15 min. Group fighting and you suddenly logged and we wiped because of that? f****ing cat!.
If you put up afk intentionally- option to free form afk message. If system puts you as AFK, system puts auto-message, whatever that may be but makes it clear its not intentional by the player.
((As long as it doesnt count being AFK while in character creater ))
Being in character creation certainly shouldn't count as being afk - not if you are actually doing something. At least one MMO boots you after X minutes in character creation no matter how active you are - that is an abomination!
Vandraad said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - AFK Kicked - How long do you think a game should allow you to remain logged in and idle before kicking you back to the character select or login screen and why? (Keeping in mind things like server performance, costs etc.) #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
Never. This isn't circa 2000 where we're on dial-ups/DSL and servers are run off single core machines. AFK does not place even a minute burden on a server so to kick people off after some period of inactivity for 'server performance' issues is complete and utter bunk. Given that we've been told that player selling of items will require active participation, actually hawking your wares instead of a current-EQ1-style Bazaar alt, people who are very into the market portion of the game could be actively monitoring the ebb and flow of a market without typing much or moving.
If VR insists on automatic log-outs after some set period of inactivity, then just say it that way, don't try and make it seem like you're doing everyone some huge favor in terms of server performance because that will be nothing but a lie.
IMO:
Yep. And especially given they have this god-mode rock-star platinum-coated team-ultralord network library that will "ELIMINATE" all latency on all servers, forever, there's even less justification. A few thousand concurrent connections on a modern kernel is basically nothing special. The few kilobits/second in bandwidth is also nothing, given network limits (if there even are any) are now in terabytes/month for a few dollars. I can push 500 megabits/second up/down 24x7, unlimited, no data caps, for less than USD$80 per month, where I live. Several of my workmates can do the same with gigabit, as they're in larger cities. As in measured at the router interface ~990 Megabits/second up/down, any time, all day, every day.
Also, whatever temporal limit, timeout, threshold or value is imposed? It'll be bypasses by people with macros, lego mindstorms or dipping birds. :P
So, it's actually in your best interest, Visionary Realms, to make these extremely generous. Otherwise?
The "cure" will be worse than the "disease". How so?
Players will generate MORE traffic and consume MORE resources in trivially & successfully bypassing your attempts to aggressively disconnect them due to inactivity.
If it's a living world? Let them live there. You have designed the game for players that play 10-12 hours a day, RIGHT? :)
But, Kilsin, if you're looking for a hard number? I'll say 2 hours of inactivity should push a player back to character select. I don't think anyone could legitimately complain that value is not generous enough.
It's also kind of an interesting side point that some games today (FO76 and others) require the player to sit motionless, staring at a spot, waiting for timed spawns due to a day/night cycle, and aggressively, at the same time, try to disconnect those same players. It's the last place you want friction generated from technical possibilities rubbing against unrealistic policies, but there you have it. Other games haven't learned.
I think that as long as the real-time population of a given server does not reach a point of significantly slowing down the game for those playing - or trying to log in and play - then I see no reason to kick anybody out of a game that they pay for access to.
Should that point be reached, then of course the system should kick those who are AFK. Starting with those who have been AFK the longest. This condition would also be fair if applied on a local level, such as in a busy town where many players congregate, rather than just to an entire server.
It should not really be about a time limit. It should be about the affect on other players.
I believe it's not just about technical limitations (excess connections causing bad performance), but is about needless cost. It might well be that home users can push around hundreds of MB/s for a low monthly fee, but cloud computing tends to cost more and cost per activity. On top of pretty low internet costs, a home user can buy a 1TB hard drive for £50 and its use is down to electricity cost. On a cloud server there will be several ways to have central storage, but often you get charged per input-output transaction and it's a lot more than the cost of the electricity.
That's why I would suggest that if a user hasn't specifically used the /afk command, then they could be disconnected quite quickly (an hour or less), but if they have used it, it should be generous (a couple of hours or more). Give the player the control, but save us from needing a cash shop to pay for needless cloud computing ;^)
The outhouse:. When a player has been idle for X amount of time, say 3 minutes, the player avatar should become an outhouse. This can indicate/mitigate a few issues.
It communicates that the player is AFK from a distance and not require a click or querying.
It can be a generic graphic that is lower load on server, (I think)
After the outhouse has stood for ten minutes (guessing) the server can log you out.
Player can not trigger the outhouse without going idle and the outhouse can be attacked and destroyed as if it was the player standing there idle.
Dead and idle. Logout in 5 minutes. (Again a guess on time)
Personally I would find it endlessly amusing to see a few orcs bashing on an outhouse as if they just needed to go BM right away.
I think one of the most important considerations is the market system for selling goods. If there is no AH system and players set up their own 'stalls' or 'caravans' or whatever I think it is unreasonable to expect the person to be next to the PC the whole time. I think an hour is reasonable personally.
EppE said:Is there player collision? In EQ Ogre's would afk outside the entrance to SolB and block the entrance. So if there is player collision a very short period of time, 10-15 minutes. If there is no player collision I don't really care as long as the server can sustain it.
Good point, though even without collision it could be very painful with popular areas becoming crammed and NPCs obscured.
disposalist said:I believe it's not just about technical limitations (excess connections causing bad performance), but is about needless cost. It might well be that home users can push around hundreds of MB/s for a low monthly fee, but cloud computing tends to cost more and cost per activity. ...
IMO:
From here, today.. (for example, using us-central1 as the gcp hosting location)
The cost goes down, the more you use. Take a look at the Premium Tier Pricing and the Standard Tier Pricing..
Price per GigaBYTE is either $0.085 (as in 8.5 cents per GigaBYTE) or 12 cents per GigaBYTE, and gets cheaper from there.
Network fees should be among the last operational costs to consider, given the extraordinarily modest client-server bandwidth requirements for a well-written/efficient MMO.
Disclaimer: Both my company and I use these services, and I receive the monthly network bills, directly, for my own private VPC and have for several years.
I have personally transferred hundreds of TeraBYTES per month both in-continent and continent-to-continent, all with Internet egress/ingress and not even noticed it in the overall monthly bill.
disposalist said:EppE said:Is there player collision? In EQ Ogre's would afk outside the entrance to SolB and block the entrance. So if there is player collision a very short period of time, 10-15 minutes. If there is no player collision I don't really care as long as the server can sustain it.
Good point, though even without collision it could be very painful with popular areas becoming crammed and NPCs obscured.
In FF14 when a new Exp is released once in awhile you'll get someone who AFK's on top of a quest NPC making it impossible to click on them. There are hot keys to target nearest NPC so there is a work around, but that is a good point. There really isn't a good reason not to kick people who are AFK after 15ish minutes.
Marked /AFK after 5 mins
Auto logged after 15 mins, with a text reminder before then.
More than enough time to answer the door / grab snacks / bio.
If you are camping - reach forward and press W once every 15 mins.
If you are off down the shops or to cook a BBQ then it's time to log off and make way for the active players.
Main reason to do this is account security and server load. Standard practice for a reason.
From the pase I hope for in the game, I would say a min allowed afk of 30 min, and I'm saying 30 because I'm keeping it low for the servers..
I still have fond memories of camping for 16 hours straight with mates in EQ where we just made food where the other 5 keept the group going, at a lower pace ofc, and I really like that it's a posibility without having to push the keys every whatever minuts.. If you don't have an active group, i don't know, 10 min maby? So in my mind, give groups a kick funktion, then they can kick people if they think it's unfair/unwanted afk farming, add a "kick because afk" funktion where they then get a 1 min timer or get kicked to caracter select, and set the out of group to 10 min and in group 30 min, or unlimited aslong as there is exp every W/E minuts..?
Well that's my best idea atleast, I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.