I'm really quite excited to delve into this when it's finally released. Currently hardly playing any MMO's, despite starting my days many years ago in Everquest. But I've played that, EQ2, Rift, WoW and GW2.
One thing that really stood out to me with GW2 was the living feel of the world.
I know that it's been said there will be no voice acting in this game, which is already a little concerning.
But how "alive" is the game going to feel?
I'm sorry to keep comparing it to Everquest, but let's be real. EQ never really felt alive. Just a bunch of people usually just standing around or walking around. Will there be any ambient conversation at all, even if it's just chat bubbles? Will towns and such actually feel like life is going about them? Will bosses or named mobs talk trash at all? Little things like this go a veeeeerrrrrrry long way, and I was curious if anyone had heard anything or had any insight about whether any of this might be included, OR, whether or not you even think it's important.
Thank you!
I agree, it's important and it shouldn't take much effort. Little, subtle things can make a big difference.
In one stream, we saw NPCs talking to each other as you approach and stifle their conversation, but be saying different things if you go back in stealth mode.
I think VR intend for the world to feel 'alive', yes.
Jarretyn said:I'm really quite excited to delve into this when it's finally released. Currently hardly playing any MMO's, despite starting my days many years ago in Everquest. But I've played that, EQ2, Rift, WoW and GW2.
One thing that really stood out to me with GW2 was the living feel of the world.
I know that it's been said there will be no voice acting in this game, which is already a little concerning.
But how "alive" is the game going to feel?
I'm sorry to keep comparing it to Everquest, but let's be real. EQ never really felt alive. Just a bunch of people usually just standing around or walking around. Will there be any ambient conversation at all, even if it's just chat bubbles? Will towns and such actually feel like life is going about them? Will bosses or named mobs talk trash at all? Little things like this go a veeeeerrrrrrry long way, and I was curious if anyone had heard anything or had any insight about whether any of this might be included, OR, whether or not you even think it's important.
Thank you!
The problem with voice acting is that it is *VERY* expensive. They discussed that previously on a Cohh stream. It can, literally, cost anywhere from tens of thousands to millions of dollars for voice acting talent. Personally, I would rather them spend the money on actual game development than voice acting. Yes, voice acting can add to immersion. Yes, I'd love to have voice acting. No, they don't have the budget for it.
While the NPCs were not too amazing in EQ, the world felt alive. The NPCs would talk to eachother briefly in text from time to time, there were cycles of events like story telling. All the quests were mostly from their long winded at times dialogue. Hailing every NPC got exhausting though. The EQ1 NPCs did not prompt you for everything with the dialogue brackets, it was very sad typing to the void, but sometimes rewarding. The problem was there was not nearly enough responses. A sign of the times perhaps, but Pantheon dialogue looks to be fully on the rails which works far better but always feels a little restrictive. I liked the EQ system of /say to ask about things, responding however you liked but saying the magic words. Sometimes the Devs would have unexpected responses too. My favorite is the rude elf:
Lady Shae the high elf in West Freeport. When you talk to her she tells you what house she is from, then asks what house you are from.
You say, "I am from the House of Pancakes"
Lady Shae says, "I can tell. You look like you ATE a house of pancakes."
Another one I remember was an NPC who would threaten you while boasting about himself. You could agree to a fight in /say and he would talk more smack to you then attack you.
Ignoring EQ though VR has shown off their mechanics to eavesdrop on conversations NPCs are having. This would mean NPCs will have conversations and can notice when players are near by to sometimes alter what they talk about. I look forward to spying on the NPCs both for learning languages and finding some hidden quests. I have a feeling most people will just run by and ignore all of their hard work. Never seeing the conversations. I too feel it is necessary to make the world feel alive. Overhearing orcs talking to eachother in a camp about the last adventurer they killed. Things like that are important.
Voice acting can quite possibly be gotten fairly cheaply. The question would be whether what they got would be worth having.
There are music/arts high schools such as Interlochen in Michigan where I think (but don't actually know) that students are delighted to do things like this just for the practice and exposure. Whether that would violate any minimum wage or union rules is another matter entirely.
Don’t be concerned, it looks like same sorta spark as eq. Perception system is a bit more immersive then npc’s /saying stuff and there’s climbing and obviously better graphics.
EDIT: I'm almost positive it's what's EQr's have been waiting for.
Talking of voice acting (which I don't think is *essential* at all for a game to feel 'alive', but can be a good tool) I think minimal voice acting would add a great deal.
In LOTRO when you first come to an NPC they will throw out a welcome, or some such, in their native language. There is maybe a few very short things they can utter in passing - things that capture their essence - that would really enhance the atmosphere of the game.
Surely getting recordings of "Hello", "Goodbye" and a few 'utterences' in in a few different race, sex, etc varients wouldn't cost much? Perhaps some few starter/intro lines for notable NPCs? Vendors might have more interesting "hello" and "goodbye" lines like "Welcome to my smithy. Good dwarf metalworks aren't cheap, mind", etc, but then the rest of the interaction would be text.
That kind of 'flavour' voice acting would go a long way and not be anywhere near as costly as expecting *everything* to be voice acted.
Kalok said:The problem with voice acting is that it is *VERY* expensive. They discussed that previously on a Cohh stream. It can, literally, cost anywhere from tens of thousands to millions of dollars for voice acting talent. Personally, I would rather them spend the money on actual game development than voice acting. Yes, voice acting can add to immersion. Yes, I'd love to have voice acting. No, they don't have the budget for it.
I wouldn't consider voice acting required. I'm more worried about the design of the world feeling organic than I am whether I am talked to or not.
But, I did see something neat a few days ago. Jason Weimann, former Pantheon programmer, posted on his YouTube about a new AI voice over application available based on text to speach. The voices are pretty good and is a cheap way to quickly whip up some voice overs if needed. Plus it's easy to change the scripts.
bigdogchris said:Kalok said:The problem with voice acting is that it is *VERY* expensive. They discussed that previously on a Cohh stream. It can, literally, cost anywhere from tens of thousands to millions of dollars for voice acting talent. Personally, I would rather them spend the money on actual game development than voice acting. Yes, voice acting can add to immersion. Yes, I'd love to have voice acting. No, they don't have the budget for it.
I wouldn't consider voice acting required. I'm more worried about the design of the world feeling organic than I am whether I am talked to or not.
But, I did see something neat a few days ago. Jason Weimann, former Pantheon programmer, posted on his YouTube about a new AI voice over application available based on text to speach. The voices are pretty good and is a cheap way to quickly whip up some voice overs if needed. Plus it's easy to change the scripts.
My only "issue" with those is pronunciation. Alot of those AI based voice-overs have pronnunciation issues.
Thank you for all the replies!
I agree, too much voice acting can be very expensive, and if you ever use famous people, they can get tied up elsewhere and you lose that voice. Something GW2 actually had a problem with more than once.
I do think something as simple as "Welcome" or something like that being voiced would go a LONG way.
I'll have to check out the fort streams. I must have completely missed the conversations going on in the fort, but that's very exciting, thank you for sharing.
I have the ability to do many impressions and make up lots of voices. My son and I mess around daily with iterations such as Senator Palatine, various Yoda, Chewbacca and other famous actors or cartoon characters. I have messaged showing interest in doing so for them, anything from voice overs for quests, bosses or just different creatures such as goblins and things like the legendary EQ Skeleton cackle. But never recieved any sort of reply. I would do so for a minimal fee or in trade for unlimited accounts x2 and freedom to design a dungeon/quest.
How cool would it be to have the beginning of a raid start with the boss having a few different dialogs and or warnings of the pathetic attempts of mere mortals to upend his/her/their reign and talk smack occasionally during a fight.. or during some sort of action such as summoning minions, final words in their death throws .. seriously someone like me or a small team of them could really do it for cheap without having to pay some voice actors guild fees etc.
Not to mention the immersion the perception system could have and a more Dungeon Master Esque feel if those pop ups *sometimes, not always* had some sort of slightly whispered voice over attached to it as well.
Imagine random insults during a fight.. Your Mother Smells of Elderberries! Bah, its only a flesh wound! LOL
disposalist said:Talking of voice acting (which I don't think is *essential* at all for a game to feel 'alive', but can be a good tool) I think minimal voice acting would add a great deal.
In LOTRO when you first come to an NPC they will throw out a welcome, or some such, in their native language. There is maybe a few very short things they can utter in passing - things that capture their essence - that would really enhance the atmosphere of the game.
Surely getting recordings of "Hello", "Goodbye" and a few 'utterences' in in a few different race, sex, etc varients wouldn't cost much? Perhaps some few starter/intro lines for notable NPCs? Vendors might have more interesting "hello" and "goodbye" lines like "Welcome to my smithy. Good dwarf metalworks aren't cheap, mind", etc, but then the rest of the interaction would be text.
That kind of 'flavour' voice acting would go a long way and not be anywhere near as costly as expecting *everything* to be voice acted.
I highly agree with this and think just an interaction line can help with immersion immensely. I'd compare it to having the color cover and few art pages in manga where you see what color this character's hair is or that character's outfit is. Even though you don't see the color the rest of the time, just seeing it in the beginning allows you to use it to fill in the spots in your imagination for the rest of the time. That one line of voiced dialogue can give you a base that you use to imagine how the npc is "saying" the rest of its text lines and gives them a lot more life.
I also have some concerns of it feeling "alive" or like a world and not a game. But Voice acting isn't one of them.
Zorkon said:I also have some concerns of it feeling "alive" or like a world and not a game. But Voice acting isn't one of them.
My biggest concern is player collision if I can run through players then they don't actually exist.
I get that to some degree but, if that is yer thing, run around or avoid them... collision gives players/guilds the ability to block content. Line up 3 toons in front of a cave entrance so no one can enter and now your guild owns the zone and all content within, free to camp every great drop uncontested.
can not complain to a GM as community is responsible for policing the game, uber guild wins cuz uner guold cares not.
Just my 2cp
Immersion has really been something the devs have focused upon heavily the whole time I've been watching development. in doing so I feel like the focus has always been about doing the things that they do Really carefully and high quality...but not doing everything of course.
I think therein lies the key to any of the immersion type improvements. Voice acting for example, to me, seems like a story development tool...good story and bad voice acting is less than good story on its own. You really need full on motion capture with good acting to express the detail you can get from a good written story..(you know expressions, thoughts, all the context)
Good story and EQ2 style headliners voice acting...well...let's just say its easy to promote until I think about what the game could have had in terms of design content for that money.
That said, In spite of the shortcomings of EQ2, I am a music lover though, so I love the involved and unique music from EQ2...and the themes fit and even helped define the feel of the areas.
I think the idea of character collision/side scooting passers by sounds really cool. Maybe even just seeing the reaction to me coming past is good enough even if I'm not truly blocked. I have no idea how complicated that might be to implement.
I hope that other "immersion" tweaks that increase the depth of gameplay will be our reward for foregoing some of the pricier items...(except the music haha! I would love to hear some of Joppas themes expanded into full movements)
vigilantee13 said:Zorkon said:I also have some concerns of it feeling "alive" or like a world and not a game. But Voice acting isn't one of them.
My biggest concern is player collision if I can run through players then they don't actually exist.I get that to some degree but, if that is yer thing, run around or avoid them... collision gives players/guilds the ability to block content. Line up 3 toons in front of a cave entrance so no one can enter and now your guild owns the zone and all content within, free to camp every great drop uncontested.
can not complain to a GM as community is responsible for policing the game, uber guild wins cuz uner guold cares not.
Just my 2cp
Understood, and have heard it before, your not alone in that concern,
Unless by chance the devs could find other ways to eliminate that griefing, for example shrink potions/spells that could get you under them between there leg's, or if we could only climb the walls (or climb players?) and go over them. I think immersion is something that should RARELY if ever be compromised, not often as an easy fix but as a very last resort. No player collision is the easy way out, they can do better.
Edit: Devs have talked about making Pantheon an MMO where the genre SHOULD have gone, not the evolution to where they are now, games we don't want to play have lost there way. I feel the easy fix of no player collision was one of those mistakes made years ago. As a temporary easy fix (until they found another solution) it would have been fine, but it's became the standard. Big Mistake IMHO
Zorkon said:vigilantee13 said:Zorkon said:I also have some concerns of it feeling "alive" or like a world and not a game. But Voice acting isn't one of them.
My biggest concern is player collision if I can run through players then they don't actually exist.I get that to some degree but, if that is yer thing, run around or avoid them... collision gives players/guilds the ability to block content. Line up 3 toons in front of a cave entrance so no one can enter and now your guild owns the zone and all content within, free to camp every great drop uncontested.
can not complain to a GM as community is responsible for policing the game, uber guild wins cuz uner guold cares not.
Just my 2cp
Understood, and have heard it before, your not alone in that concern,
Unless by chance the devs could find other ways to eliminate that griefing, for example shrink potions/spells that could get you under them between there leg's, or if we could only climb the walls (or climb players?) and go over them. I think immersion is something that should RARELY if ever be compromised, not often as an easy fix but as a very last resort. No player collision is the easy way out, they can do better.
Edit: Devs have talked about making Pantheon an MMO where the genre SHOULD have gone, not the evolution to where they are now, games we don't want to play have lost there way. I feel the easy fix of no player collision was one of those mistakes made years ago. As a temporary easy fix (until they found another solution) it would have been fine, but it's became the standard. Big Mistake IMHO
Generally, I think object permanence is a big component of immersion...Collision seems to feed right into that feeling (or lack thereof) for a character in an MMO. I mean, what more important 'object' than the avatar?
That said, I think "mistake" might be a misnomer as this seems to be a pretty difficult challenge in terms of gameplay and positioning. is there any elegant solution that prevents misuse? Ever try getting to an NPC in FF XIV that is completely covered with bots and unsuccessfully trying to hail said NPC? This might be solved by making NPC collisions real at least, but has also been solved by allowing right-clicking to preferentially select an NPC when hidden behind other PCs
However, I would suspect collision has been explored for PCs and found to create a ton of fun-killing problems..
Assuming intentional blocking could be fixed, would the "solutions" to that issue not feel as contrived? I push toward someone until I magically appear on the other side of them at some point? Short of introducing PvP-like interaction (not that I'm recommending that) where someone could be pushed off a wall or a natural bottleneck like a bridge, I'm not sure an elegant solution exists for actual collisions to work.
If it looks good visually, maybe there is a non-interactive (meaning no actual position modification) way to represent object permanence by adding some audio and visual effects so that my toon grunts and twists to get by without the need for actually circumventing anything
If so, is that going to look like some crazy oscillation of a dance when I stop in just the right position? And what happens on my horse?
Jarretyn asks: "Will there be any ambient conversation at all, even if it's just chat bubbles?"
If you watch this part of the Evaluation Build Gameplay video at timestamp: 31:26 Cohh notices two NPC's having a conversation that he stops to listen to. Then about a minute later at timestamp: 32:50 he finds two more NPCs who give him the cold shoulder because they are trying to have a private conversation. Joppa then prompts him to try using his Rogue stealth to go see if he could listen to said Private coversation, which he does and gets to listen in.
Voice acting is pretty staple in AAA titles, but Pantheon isn't a AAA title.
Voice acting can be cheap, but it's probably not going to be cheap *AND* good.
Bad voice acting is worse than no voice acting.
If Pantheon does well post release, it would behoove VR to add in voice acting later, but as of right now they're already working on a limited budget with a small team.
There's no publisher forking over millions of dollars for sound equipment, a sound team, and enough voice talent to give voices to an entire world of people.
However, there are ways to make the world feel a little more alive despite a lack of voices as can be seen in the DeViare streams. NPCs that have conversations with eachother. NPCs that greet you or initiate conversations, and having a healthy playerbase to populate the world all make the world feel more lively.