Kalok said:Then how would "normal" users participate in raids when they wanted to? What would "high-level" characters do to get the best items and gear?
VR has said time and again raids wont have better gear than dungeons or crafting. So there will be max level players not raiding with the best gear.
On topic, I think this is a bad idea. While the game won't be raid focused from what they say, it will be a large aspect of the game. I think it would be cutting out too much of it. It would be similar to if dueling and possibly some form of pvp arena were designed and built but only worked on a pvp server. Too much effort would be lost. As for how raids work and the rate they spit out gear VR will have to find a way to balance that with dungeons and crafting. No one system can be the easy path to gear. My fear is they make raids a foux instance weekly kill that spits out top loot for 20-30 mins of effort for "convenience"
Jobeson said:Kalok said:Then how would "normal" users participate in raids when they wanted to? What would "high-level" characters do to get the best items and gear?
VR has said time and again raids wont have better gear than dungeons or crafting. So there will be max level players not raiding with the best gear.
On topic, I think this is a bad idea. While the game won't be raid focused from what they say, it will be a large aspect of the game. I think it would be cutting out too much of it. It would be similar to if dueling and possibly some form of pvp arena were designed and built but only worked on a pvp server. Too much effort would be lost. As for how raids work and the rate they spit out gear VR will have to find a way to balance that with dungeons and crafting. No one system can be the easy path to gear. My fear is they make raids a foux instance weekly kill that spits out top loot for 20-30 mins of effort for "convenience"
They said no such thing. Show me one place where they said that raids won't have top-tier stuff, because you're wrong. In fact, they have stated the opposite. That there are some things you can only get through raids, like certain high level spells, skills, weapons, et al.
Kalok said:They said no such thing. Show me one place where they said that raids won't have top-tier stuff, because you're wrong. In fact, they have stated the opposite. That there are some things you can only get through raids, like certain high level spells, skills, weapons, et al.
Unique to raids yes, the best gear no. In WoW terms the ilvl of the items would be the same. It won't be weaker than the best dungeon drops, but they have said they don't want it to be superior.
Edit: https://youtu.be/0MPG2pbC3nw?t=2085 Also want to drop in their long stance on BIS gear.
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
While I do not like raiding, I still want to try the raids a couple times for the story and maybe the occasional raid flavored BIS.
Thus even someone who hates the raiding community to death like myself would probably join the server with raids.
I do not think servers without raids would be a good idea.
I have no love of raiding and might never do it unless I was in a guild that needed more people for that.
On the other hand I see no benefit and much harm to having a separate raiding server. I have never had a problem working with players that prefer to raid when I grouped with them for landscape or ordinary dungeon content and I see no benefit to encouraging them to be on a different server.
Jobeson said:Kalok said:They said no such thing. Show me one place where they said that raids won't have top-tier stuff, because you're wrong. In fact, they have stated the opposite. That there are some things you can only get through raids, like certain high level spells, skills, weapons, et al.
Unique to raids yes, the best gear no. In WoW terms the ilvl of the items would be the same. It won't be weaker than the best dungeon drops, but they have said they don't want it to be superior.
Edit: https://youtu.be/0MPG2pbC3nw?t=2085 Also want to drop in their long stance on BIS gear.
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
I was using best in the terms of the highest level and postentially unique stuff.... You're just being pedantic.
Prim said:What if all things raid were on raid servers away from other servers?
I would have to ask what problem this solves, how does it make the game better, and how does it affect the community.
I personally don't see a problem that this solves. If someone doesn't want to raid they don't have to, and if they ever decide they want to give it a go they at least have the option to do it on the server they started on.
I personally don't think it would make the game better. The devs have stated they want to have raid opportunities at multiple levels. Asking them to cut these out would lead to a very incomplete feeling game.
As for the community, it would unnecessarily create a means of separation, and it would probably have a negative impact on players who only want to focus on crafting.
I'll be honest I personally, don't see any benefit to setting up servers based on the ability to raid or not.
Kalok said:Do you really think that they're going to drop crap gear in raids?? No. It's going to be high-end gear.... aka.... wait for it... best.
"What would "high-level" characters do to get the best items and gear?" answer "VR has said time and again raids wont have better gear than dungeons or crafting." Is that statement true? yes, did it answer your literal question? yes, because dungeons and crafting will have the same quality of gear. Did you say it is false? "They said no such thing." yes you did.
Feel free to claim you said something differen't, feel free to claim I said something different. It is pretty comical though when you make these claims with a literal chat log above the gas lighting. Now I am actually being pedantic :D
Jobeson said:Kalok said:Do you really think that they're going to drop crap gear in raids?? No. It's going to be high-end gear.... aka.... wait for it... best.
"What would "high-level" characters do to get the best items and gear?" answer "VR has said time and again raids wont have better gear than dungeons or crafting." Is that statement true? yes, did it answer your literal question? yes, because dungeons and crafting will have the same quality of gear. Did you say it is false? "They said no such thing." yes you did.
Feel free to claim you said something differen't, feel free to claim I said something different. It is pretty comical though when you make these claims with a literal chat log above the gas lighting. Now I am actually being pedantic :D
Show me where I said, "better than crafting". You can't. Because I didn't. They've ALSO said that some crafting stuff, you will only be able to get from raids. So, yeah. I still stand by my statement that some of the best gear and skills are going to come from raiding.
There would be really no reason at all to raid if all the best gear could just be camped in a dungeon or crafted. Which would really diminish the point of ever raiding, creating raid content, or having the term raiding. Why go through all the hassle of a raid and all that it entails to get campable/craftable gear. Thats just immensley dumb.
I do get that craftable drops from raid only content will make it possible that you can only get that high end awesome item from crafting but ya HAVE to get the craftable items from a raid. Therefor making the point valid that the best can only be obtained from raiding. I do support UBER rare drops in dungeons being powerful A/F but, Emperor Crush shouldnt drop a breastplate comparable to a Cazic Thule raid only obtainable breastplate.
Jobeson said:Unique to raids yes, the best gear no. In WoW terms the ilvl of the items would be the same. It won't be weaker than the best dungeon drops, but they have said they don't want it to be superior.
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
Jobeson said:
VR has said time and again raids wont have better gear than dungeons or crafting. So there will be max level players not raiding with the best gear.
That has never been the case.
The fact that there will be best frost-resist gear available only via crafting, doesnt mean everything will be available via this mean - raids will certainly cover some part of "ultimate" end-game equipment. Besides - there is no valid reason not to include it on all servers as it prolongs the time people will be interested in playing their toons and game itself.
Jobeson said:Kalok said:[...]
[...]
Edit: https://youtu.be/0MPG2pbC3nw?t=2085 Also want to drop in their long stance on BIS gear.
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
I can see the likes of this kind of thinking, this "situational gearing" (<-my phraseology) for example already in the Monk stream- but on skills(for casters, spells) and Select/limited action choices that require discernment. But the interesting thing is, you are NOT limited as the monk stream showed. It's how you choose to stack them relative to the gateway triggers. You can start to stack one aspect of chi and then mistakenly re-set it because you needed to - or wanted to- use another spell/ability that was linked to another chi. The cool looking Wing-Chun combo may not be the best and instead the slow katana precision of Zatoichi is better (blindfold must be on).
So I'm thinking: as there is situational awareness needed from the player to know their surroundings and how the environment behaves on them(creatures and atmosphere) and how they interact with it, so does the player also need to have situational class/ability awareness of how their own abilities behave with the environment(creatures with cold/blunt resist) and others(players/group). Some may call this playerability or proficiency with their class.
Hypothetically speaking, it seems reasonable to me to extend this kind of thinking to gear, "situational gearing". A raid drop may be uber in its uberness but not always useful depending on the...Situation. There's that word again. Where a groupable item may be more coveted in a certain situation, or in combination with other gear can create a tapestry- a changeable/modifiable tapestry- of gear that taken as a whole is not dependent on raid gear. Will raid items be better? As a stand alone item, I think absolutely yes. But I also think a fully raid geared player will not be able to survive in the same situations that a well thought out group geared player can OR that a well thought out ability/spell set can. In fact I suspect that a fully raid geared player may need to swap down some gear to succeed in certain situations or simply pass on items.
If this is so, that would make raiding not so much the draw to loot, but the draw to the encounter :) it would just be fun to do.
Situational awareness -> situational Class ability/spell awareness -> "situational gearing" ->and taking it further to bringing the "M" back into M"M"ORPG and upwards still by transcending the box/game/PC into RL to social awareness -> Situational socialization
Hello.
The voluntary social situation is the game.
Jobeson said:Kalok said:They said no such thing. Show me one place where they said that raids won't have top-tier stuff, because you're wrong. In fact, they have stated the opposite. That there are some things you can only get through raids, like certain high level spells, skills, weapons, et al.
Unique to raids yes, the best gear no. In WoW terms the ilvl of the items would be the same. It won't be weaker than the best dungeon drops, but they have said they don't want it to be superior.
Edit: https://youtu.be/0MPG2pbC3nw?t=2085 Also want to drop in their long stance on BIS gear.
In Pantheon, there often won't simply be a weapon or piece of gear that is the absolute best item for your character’s class and level. Instead, many items will be more situational, and the player will need to ask himself, 'where am I?', 'what am I going to fight next?', and 'who in my group is what class, and what items do they have that may help defeat the next encounter?' Items that protect against climates/atmospheres (areas of extreme heat or cold, or disease, or absolute darkness) will often be important. So also will 'bane' items that are especially effective against certain types of mobs (for example, the Undead, or Dragonkind).
I believe what they are referring to there is that there will not be 'best in slot', where there is a single item that is the best at everything. They are more in favor of situational gear, which is a TM Brad Mcquaid/The Vision design philosophy.
I most certain expect the best gear, at whatever stat you are looking to improve, will be from raids or epic type quest.
It's not a raid focused game is the thing, and so if the "end game" is raiding then that has been a lie all along and the game will slide quickly into being primarily about raiding. The end game in an RPG being top end progression/gearing. So I fully suspect that a portion of the better/best stuff as well as some potentially unique items will come from raiding that it won't be the lions share of it.
Like most aspects of Pantheon, we are hoping VR doesn't fall into the old problems we know exist with aspects like raiding.
There's no reason to separate it off if it isn't a problem.
I really hope VR manage to avoid the traditional 'end game' thing entirely, but at least manage to avoid the end game being an endless, stressful, uber-guild-dominated, elitist, pseudo-PvP raid cycle.
If it does go that way, I suppose servers with different rulesets to alleviate the issues might help?
I would like raiding to be attractive because it's some of the most fun to be had, not just because it's essential in order to feel you are still progressing or doing something meaningful.
Raidil said: Look when it comes to gear and raiding it's simple if raid gear is just going to be soso or something u can get my just group and hanging in a dungeon thin no one's going to raid there will be no point.
The point will be that you experianced and completed the raid content. Killed that boss, got that very nice looking item. It might not have better in stats then killing a mob at the bottom of a dungeon, but it would look much more awsome on your char. I thought that was more where they were going with it. The Wow factor (not the game) of the item or armor that people are wearing. Where did you get that from, oh a dragon at the top of a mountain with 40 others.
Boulda said:Raidil said: Look when it comes to gear and raiding it's simple if raid gear is just going to be soso or something u can get my just group and hanging in a dungeon thin no one's going to raid there will be no point.The point will be that you experianced and completed the raid content. Killed that boss, got that very nice looking item. It might not have better in stats then killing a mob at the bottom of a dungeon, but it would look much more awsome on your char. I thought that was more where they were going with it. The Wow factor (not the game) of the item or armor that people are wearing. Where did you get that from, oh a dragon at the top of a mountain with 40 others.
Yes,
Also as far as loot tables, I think special clickies and Procs would be good things to seek on raids and- if there was a way not to make it OP- a piece of gear that had a shared group effect or aura. The only difficult thing about the shared effect I can see is how to limit it so it doesnt overlap/ over-stack with other group effects. The hopeful benefit would be the wow factor because a raider can then group and if its a non-visible piece the wow factor will be "felt" if not seen.
Like, to me, a name hiding clicky illusion would be fun to goof around with among other players and something I would want to raid and put in for and hope I get.
Tbh there has to be some uberness to raid loots.
Alternatively I think its raid design that needs to be looked at IF it is deemed appropriate to cater to the sour grapes of the casuals. Or design gameplay that organically encourages not only grouping, but gradually increasing multiple grouping to the point of a full blown raid. Lets not forget, Raid leadership is crucial to a fun time based on known raid design. You can get a bunch of casuals together in a raid for the first time and if they have a seasoned leader- even if they fail- they will have a good time and "get the bug" and want to come back again- to fail! But when they win- ooh!~.