Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

"Nerfed" Items

    • 1273 posts
    April 26, 2021 10:07 AM PDT

    At the same time, we shouldn't be testing every location and every item before release.  There must be secrets held back.  

    Internal testing should definitely happen with every item and every location though.  Just not the alpha/beta crowd. 

    • 9 posts
    April 26, 2021 10:32 AM PDT

    Questaar said:

    This scenario shows why testing is so important. Nerfing items, spells, abilities shows a lack of testing/planning/vision.  When it happens it's important that the devs make an announcement...hey we screwed up...(we're only human) and make the change globally.  There should not be any "pre-nerfed" things in game.  

     

    While technically you're probably right, I think there are implications of sloppiness, which I don't think are fair. It's not possible to test every item in every scenario. Realizing that items A, B, C and D, when combined produce godlike powers -- that's the sort of thing players figure out over weeks or months. If it's not fairly obvious within an hour or two of using it, then I have to wonder just what standard we have on the devs.

     

    You're right that they should admit they mis-estimated. And I agree pre-nerfed items should disappear, possibly with compensation, depending on the history.

     

    But what if (for instance) we're talking about something like a manastone. They were around a long time before SOE decided they were too powerful. They "nerfed" them by not letting them be used in new zones. But imagine you farmed for 20 Ykeshas (or whatever) to trade for a manastone "so I have it for the expansion" and suddenly found out you couldn't use it.

     

    "Tough luck" is one answer, but it's not one I prefer.

     

    • 2419 posts
    April 26, 2021 10:35 AM PDT

    Just because an item gets adjusted downwards because it's current implementation has problems is not a nerf. It's a correction.  Anything in this game, every spell, ability, gear, weapon...all of it..need to be continually examined to ensure that they are not negatively impacting the overall health of the game. That means that all currently existing examples in the game need to be retroactively adjusted.

    • 1281 posts
    April 26, 2021 10:48 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Just because an item gets adjusted downwards because it's current implementation has problems is not a nerf. It's a correction.  Anything in this game, every spell, ability, gear, weapon...all of it..need to be continually examined to ensure that they are not negatively impacting the overall health of the game. That means that all currently existing examples in the game need to be retroactively adjusted.

    QFT

    • 454 posts
    April 26, 2021 11:45 AM PDT

    For me "Nerf" means.."anything that gets adjusted downwards because it's current implementation has problems". So I disagree with Vandraad.

    WolfySins.  I should have been more precise.  I did not mean to imply sloppiness on the devs part.  Imo, it's just how things work.  Testing should be thorough, and extensive.  Thus just say hey, we screwed up, or similar and make the change necessary.  Ya, I disagree with EQ and the mana stone example.  But that's just my opinion.  Having something work in one zone, but not another would drive me nuts.  I understand the economics you describe, I do not have a good answer for it though.

    • 1273 posts
    April 26, 2021 11:57 AM PDT

    I don't think you get to disagree with the definition.  The OP stated the defintion we'll use here is "turn a real weapon into a toy weapon"

     

    Just because an item gets tuned down to reality doesn't make it a toy weapon (usless).  I'm sure the item itself will still be useful.

    • 1281 posts
    May 2, 2021 9:43 AM PDT

    I watched a video recently that was talking about items in MMO's that only some players can ever obtain. He talked about how you could have a few happy people that have unique items, whether from keep pre-nerfed items, or give aways, or no longer dropping. It continues by saying players are happy but everyone else is not, and everyone else is always goign to be a bigger number.

    And that does remind me of the time playing and not being able to get an item just because I wasn't around at the beginning. Players should be able to work to get items. If they are just too powerful to keep in game then they are too powerful to keep in game.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at May 2, 2021 9:44 AM PDT
    • 392 posts
    May 2, 2021 11:53 PM PDT

    In a single or competitive game you would be correct, but for mmos its kinda just part of the genre.

    Youre never expected to get every single item and outside of nerfed items a lot of mmos have dropped and rebuilt the drop lists for their vanilla games to make it easier for new players to catch up.

    Not one of them makes the missing loot available anymore and no one complains about that, for Pantheon even the pledge items are split at one of the package levels, you can go for the Black Rose items or the standard package at one tier, should all those be made available to players who aren't around now or went with the other pledges?

    • 74 posts
    July 6, 2021 9:45 AM PDT

    I would like to see pre-nerfed items left in the game if you worked to collect them before they were re-assessed. These become coveted trade items and add a layer of fun to collecting these types of ultra rare pieces. I also don't believe there should be a restriction on trading them if there was no such restriction in place when it dropped. Nerfing items can sometimes result in bland itemization overall. One of the coolest things about Everquest itemization was using that clicky from 5 expansions ago to stack the 100 mana buff that worked with everything else. Circlet of Shadow is such an awesome item for SKs and Necros but didn't break the game and it was still nerfed. I am glad they were cool enough to keep the pre-nerfed items around for those that already earned them. Just my random thoughts as a long time EQ1/EQ2 player.

    • 1281 posts
    July 6, 2021 10:07 AM PDT

    Prindan said:

    I would like to see pre-nerfed items left in the game if you worked to collect them before they were re-assessed. These become coveted trade items and add a layer of fun to collecting these types of ultra rare pieces. I also don't believe there should be a restriction on trading them if there was no such restriction in place when it dropped. Nerfing items can sometimes result in bland itemization overall. One of the coolest things about Everquest itemization was using that clicky from 5 expansions ago to stack the 100 mana buff that worked with everything else. Circlet of Shadow is such an awesome item for SKs and Necros but didn't break the game and it was still nerfed. I am glad they were cool enough to keep the pre-nerfed items around for those that already earned them. Just my random thoughts as a long time EQ1/EQ2 player.

    Gintoki88 said:

    In a single or competitive game you would be correct, but for mmos its kinda just part of the genre.

    Youre never expected to get every single item and outside of nerfed items a lot of mmos have dropped and rebuilt the drop lists for their vanilla games to make it easier for new players to catch up.

    Not one of them makes the missing loot available anymore and no one complains about that, for Pantheon even the pledge items are split at one of the package levels, you can go for the Black Rose items or the standard package at one tier, should all those be made available to players who aren't around now or went with the other pledges?

    These are both very good points. I'm so on the fence about it, but I can see it from the other side too. As someone who had a pre-nerfed COS I agree it would have sucked if it was nerfed because it was a cool and special item that very few had. Maybe keeping it in game, but making it no-drop may be a solution to the concerns.

    I'm glad I'm not the one making the decision for PROTF :)


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at July 6, 2021 10:08 AM PDT
    • 888 posts
    July 7, 2021 9:10 AM PDT
    If something is broken (too weak, too strong, etc) then fix it. Leaving in legacy imbalanced items not only leaves the original problem in place, it generates a second problem of scarcity.

    Look at Magic: The Gathering. It has cards that are so imbalanced the only way to allow people to play with them is in specific formats, and those are so expensive that it's impossible for most people. While MTG is a card game, provides a good example of how harmful overpowered items are, especially when no new ones will get created. People with these items will have a huge advantage when trying to find groups and will clear content a lot faster. The items will become ridiculously expensive to trade for and will be unavailable via "earning" them, thus making them a defacto cash shop whale item.
    • 129 posts
    July 7, 2021 3:07 PM PDT

     

    • Be changed for new drops. Existing ones would be changed as well.

     

    This is the only answer imo. Don't get me wrong, it was great having ultra rare items that no longer dropped, but it was really disheartening if you didn't have one or wanted to main switch. If an item is deemed too powerful, all items should change, regardless of if you already possess it or not. Pre-Nerf items should not be a thing and never should have been a thing. The worst thing about doing any "fresh start" nostalgia run is immediately going for all pre-nerf items. Bleh.