I'm watching youtubers test Karazhan for the WOW TBC beta, (hi wow players see you in outland) and they all agree its way to easy, which i can confirm it is.
But it did get me thinking about raids and "mechanics" of boss fights, in my opinon, every raid ive ever done in my 23 years of playing MMOs has been easy, because by their very nature they cant be difficult once learned.
Lets say you fight that boss that does 3 moves.
1. Places a dot on the tank that must be dispelled.
2. Places rings of fire on the ground.
3. Summons two adds that must be killed or they explode and wipe the raid.
Ok so you might die on this fight once and then never again, because how could you ?
Once you know the tactics its impossible for a fight to be difficult.
Now granted some fights have certain mechanics like boss places a curse on a random raid member that kills them after 5 seconds, cant be dispelled and you might be unlucky and it kills tank or healer, but besides that there is basically nothing.
What are some things the devs could do even years after launch to avoid this problem.
I was thinking and i really hope all mmos do this in the future.
1. Smart AI where the bosses react to the raid, the composition and what is happening and players would need to react to whatever the boss does, instead of knowing exaclty what is going to happen and when.
2. Multiple and random mechanics, so boss one has 3-4 mechanics on this day but next time could have completely different set of mechanics and its just completly random, yes eventually we would learn them all, but it would help greatly.
Please share any ideas you have.
I heard talk once of a Boss in Wow sending random raiders back to there bind points.
I think it was a bug, what he was actually doing was Charming them then casting one random spell.
I think it should have been intentional. At any given raid you can start loosing your Healers, or your Tanks, Can you adapt? Were they bound close? Can they get back? Do you have Sumoners on CoTH duty?
I'm looking for the info, but can't find it right now.
Grimseethe said:Please share any ideas you have.
NPCs should, at a minimum, have access to all the spells and abilities of the players depending upon the class of NPC. So if that NPC is a Cleric, it should be using Cleric spells...alot. AC buffs, self heals, etc.
But, what would really make things different, would be if NPCs actually acted like their class. Why would a caster NPC ever want to run into melee range? They shouldn't...ever, avoiding doing so as much as possible, nuking from a distance. What we've seen so far are the same dumb NPCs, irrespective of class, that just quickly run into melee range then melee the rest of the fight.
We've been told how Dispositions are supposed to make NPCs more difficult, but even with that once we learn what those dispositions mean, which will happen sooner than VR thinks it will, we'll always know the right response and that reduces the difficulty. Back to NPCs being dumb and predictable.
I have often though pantheon (or any game really) should have raid mobs (or even boss mobs) react in a plethora of different ways. For 1, it slows down content as you can't just speed run through the boss's as you don't know what you're going to get. It also makes the game interesting even after plowing through the zone many times.
I have thought of things like having a raid mob that is whatever it is normally (maybe tank and spank, maybe a bezerker with a lot of aoe, whatever his normal mechanics are), but then if you happened to pay attention and noticed that it was a full moon out that night...he also turns into a warewolf at the start, or middle of a fight. Or maybe he is just not where he normally is supposed to be, and instead is running rabid somewhere amoung the zone realy to mess some sh!t up. That would certainly keep you on your toes.
I think it would be a good idea to have several differen't mechanics for the raid mobs that are constantly changing also to benefit slower/weaker raid guilds out there. If my raid force is really strong and can clear most of everything in front of us thats great...but feel bad for those less coordinated/skilled/geared. However, if once in awhile the raid mob has an easier mechanic system...those weaker raid forces still have a chance. And, to be clear, I'm not asking for "easy modes" just for the sake of everybody getting a trophy. I'm saying take the same mob, but perhaps its the day right after he turned into a warewolf and went crazy...and maybe this time hes feeling more lethargic and is a tank and spank...or does 5% less damage etc etc. Certainly not easy mode, but a slightly easier version.
EQ2 had A LOT of different raid mechanics that were unique. There was a raid mob where you had to keep your mana within certain percentages or it was basically a wipe. Was like between 10% and 50% mana I think. So you had to sprint to burn off mana, and stop casting when you got low, etc. There was one where you were cursed and had to jump into certain pools to clense yourself based off which curse you had and you were mostly blinded as well...so needed outside help to direct you. There were mobs that would teleport you to another area and you were locked there until you cleared the adds in that area that swarmed you (sucked for healers on that one lol). etc etc. But all these are are mechanics. No matter how any game makes a raid fight "interesting" or "unique" or "challenging" it will all come down to mechanics. Once you know the mechanic...it is MUCH easier. Granted, just because you know the mechanic doesn't mean the fight is suddenly easy. There is still the requirement of getting 24-48 people to work together to kill a mob without making mistakes or without "failing the script" as we called it in EQ2. Let alone, you still have all of that on top of the normal tank and spank abilities...as in getting a clean pull, and keeping the tank up long enough to get debuffs in on the mob, getting stable, getting DPS in...possibly passing DPS checks, etc.
Vandraad said:Grimseethe said:Please share any ideas you have.
NPCs should, at a minimum, have access to all the spells and abilities of the players depending upon the class of NPC. So if that NPC is a Cleric, it should be using Cleric spells...alot. AC buffs, self heals, etc.
But, what would really make things different, would be if NPCs actually acted like their class. Why would a caster NPC ever want to run into melee range? They shouldn't...ever, avoiding doing so as much as possible, nuking from a distance. What we've seen so far are the same dumb NPCs, irrespective of class, that just quickly run into melee range then melee the rest of the fight.
We've been told how Dispositions are supposed to make NPCs more difficult, but even with that once we learn what those dispositions mean, which will happen sooner than VR thinks it will, we'll always know the right response and that reduces the difficulty. Back to NPCs being dumb and predictable.
Xxar said:It depends on the context , there needs to be a handful of "entry" level mobs for progression purposes and get harder from there imo.
If theyre hard people will learn, also i doubt pantheon will be anyones first MMO.
I think a big factor for challenge is not the mechanics per say, but instead how many of them are thrown at you at the same time, testing the multi-tasking abilities of you and your raid. Sure, it's easy to learn and react to a single mechanic. But when you have to watch out for several at the same time, it's not that easy anymore :) Or mechanics that have several forms: First the simple, basic form...then it gets a new twist the next time.
Sure, in the end that all is still about memorizing the pattern and dancing to it...but people want to get their raids done, not fail every time again. So I guess that there can only be so much challenge before people just won't bother with a raid anymore.
It's the same for any encounter, though, surely? *Some* dynamism is nice, but we actually *like* to feel we learn and master something, don't we?
The added challenge for raids is, of course, coordinating many players/characters. Mechanics do *tend* to be more complex than grouping, say, because it's generally a longer encounter, but there's no reason group content couldn't be as complex and demanding.
Either way, as long as we have to utilise our skills, coordinate and synergise with others, and can't just faceroll the keyboard, then it's still fun and satisfying, no?
The important thing is to make the experience *feel* good when you're learning it til when you've mastered it and even then, until you've done it many times and squeezed every bit of interest from it.
That should take a long time for most?
*shrug* Maybe not for everyone. I know some get bored the instant they feel they've 'beaten' something.
What comes to mind is this: A game with your friends (whatever it is) if the game is engaging and the friends are good, is fun. Doesn't matter if it's chess or monopoly or D&D and doesn't matter if you win or lose or whatever every single time. If the game itself is fun and satisfying to *play* (not beat or master), then the point is the enjoyment of the game not 'beating' any particular aspect, no?
TL;DR: Yeah encounters throwing a curve ball you have to improvise around is a fun part of it, but learning and mastering encounters is very satisfying in itself. If the game is *fun*, in and of itself, then it's still fun if you're good at it or bad at it, still learning or a master.
DOes anyone remember the arcade game called Dragon's Lair ?
It was groundbreaking because it used a laser video disc (WAY before CD's and DVD's) which gave it (then) amazing animated graphics.
Basically you played the character and had to choose the correct direction to move with a joystick. Each scene was a movie scene and you had to decide if you go up, down, left or right.
The entire game was nothing but trial-and-error. You died in each scene but then figured it out the next time.
Once you figured it out, it was all just a pattern :left-left-up-right-;eft-down-left-up....etcetera.
What looked amaing and impressive was horribly lame and boring once you figured out the tactic.
Raid fights are the same, as described above.
By having an adaptive AI where the boss mob "thinks" and adapts his fight to the situation. I think this should be a huge priority for VR: create raid bosses (and mobs in general) tat have som eintelligence so encounters aren't just trial-and-error pattern learning.
Does anyone remember the arcade game called Dragon's Lair ?
It was groundbreaking because it used a laser video disc (WAY before CD's and DVD's) which gave it (then) amazing animated graphics.
Basically you played the character and had to choose the correct direction to move with a joystick. Each scene was a movie scene and you had to decide if you go up, down, left or right.
The entire game was nothing but trial-and-error. You died in each scene but then figured it out the next time.
Once you figured it out, it was all just a pattern :left-left-up-right-left-down-left-up....etcetera.
What looked amaing and impressive was horribly lame and boring once you figured out the tactic.
Raid fights are the same, as described above.
By having an adaptive AI where the boss mob "thinks" and adapts his fight to the situation. I think this should be a huge priority for VR: create raid bosses (and mobs in general) tat have som eintelligence so encounters aren't just trial-and-error pattern learning.
disposalist said:It's the same for any encounter, though, surely? *Some* dynamism is nice, but we actually *like* to feel we learn and master something, don't we?
The added challenge for raids is, of course, coordinating many players/characters. Mechanics do *tend* to be more complex than grouping, say, because it's generally a longer encounter, but there's no reason group content couldn't be as complex and demanding.
Either way, as long as we have to utilise our skills, coordinate and synergise with others, and can't just faceroll the keyboard, then it's still fun and satisfying, no?
The important thing is to make the experience *feel* good when you're learning it til when you've mastered it and even then, until you've done it many times and squeezed every bit of interest from it.
That should take a long time for most?
...
I agree. I also forgot about another factor in my earlier post, namely gear. Of course, a raid should not only be a gear check, but IMO gear can be a big factor. Having to overcome the vast difference in power between your raid and the boss can can make up for "easy" tactics used by the boss.
IMO this also means that fully gearing up in raid drops should not trivialize the raid encounters. Raid gear should help fight in the raids, but it should never trivialize things (obviously, this kind of breaks down once you have expansions and level increases).
IMO the answer is very simple. And very different from what most MMOs do now.
Do NOT have boss fights rely on mechanics at all. Dancing from pixel to pixel based on a preset script makes the fight too easy for those that know it and too hard for those that do not. Plus it suddenly transforms months or years of learning your class and gearing up into an exercise of following a script.
Have the boss and its allies act like players. Use damage abilities. Use healing. Have a tank mob that can force players to attack it. Perhaps the boss perhaps not. Use crowd control. As needed and as seems appropriate to the AI running them - not "at 80% summon adds. At 60% use a big nuke. At 40% use a self-heal".
My concern is add ons making the content easier than intended. It has become a huge problem in mmos.
Add ons minimize the ability of players who are skilled enough to complete content as intended without the help of outside aid.
VR has never given us a solution for client side add ons/hand holders.
Joppa said : "saying we aren't going to stop ...something...is the same thing as saying ya go ahead"
That ^ was in reference to multiboxing but it applies to add ons as well. Though this is a bigger issue because they said they wont allow server side add ons. They have never addressed client side. So they have stated its an issue but they only presented a solution to half the problem...
There was a long thread recently that discussed hiding numbers from the client to help reduce add ons but we never got any official solutions from VR.
Negating add ons would go a long way towards keeping content "as intended" instead of easy.
It's PvE.... you really can't have it be "balanced" and at the same time create a combat scenario that can't be memorized. If the combat mechanics are random they can occur in an order that isn't "balanced" thus creating a "no win" scenario.
As for you'll never die after you learn the fight Innoruuk would like a word with you. I loved this fight because he would death touch our DPS.
dorotea said:IMO the answer is very simple. And very different from what most MMOs do now.
Do NOT have boss fights rely on mechanics at all. Dancing from pixel to pixel based on a preset script makes the fight too easy for those that know it and too hard for those that do not. Plus it suddenly transforms months or years of learning your class and gearing up into an exercise of following a script. ...
IMO:
This right here has been a 20+ year annoyance for me.
You play your class for hundreds of hours (or hundreds of days, YMMV) to get to xx level. You've done your best to become the pinnacle of your role. You anticipate. You know the tricks. It's all there. Your group is a well-oiled machine of accomplishment.
You get all the gear necessary to reach a Tier1 raid.
You enter the raid, and everything you spent in the leveling and learning is now tossed out the window, and you play DDR avoiding the fire. Hm. And this is FUN?
I've never understood that design goal: "Let's have the players learn how to be a finely tuned machine performing their role with almost supernatural ability for xx levels and hundreds of hours, and now, STOP doing that! Huzzah!"
Everything you learned? Pointless! Useless! Yay! :)
Cleric, hide, look at the floor, and press this one button! If you don't press it within 250ms of when it should be pressed, we all die. No pressure.
Warrior, tag off the Monk, move to and stand in this one spot and taunt. Don't go LD or we all die.
Melee DPS, joust. You get to hit the target for 2 seconds out of every 30, unless the script timing is off or buggy and then you all die. Enjoy.
Ranged non-magic DPS, auto attack.
Enchanter, mana-regen & haste everyone then logoff and switch to your main.
Wizards, sit on your ass until the mob is at 20%, then chain nuke until OOM. If you stand up before 20% so help me Brell, I will boot your ass from the raid.
Kill all the pets. NO PETS!
Necro, all DoT and feign. If you stand up, we all die.
Monk, pull and feign. If you stand up, we all die.
Paladin/SK, You're the rampage target, try not to die. Use your pocket cleric to keep you alive.
Druid, relog to your main after you provide your one buff someone might want.
Personally, if raiding in Pantheon is going to be me NOT performing my role? I won't be inclined to consume that content. I want role-playing content. Content where I get to play my role. The role that I'm really really really good at, because it took me xx levels to get here.
At this point, I would be happy if raiding simply meant challenging multi-group content, where you needed 2-4 groups, because there are 2-4 encounters that needed to be resolved, concurrently. Leave the DDR avoiding the fire to all those other games.
Under those conditions, at least what I learned for 50 levels wouldn't be thrown out the window.
The truth of it is, is that once you kjill the raid boss, it will only become easier after that due to receiving gear for your guild from said mob, as it suppose to. So I'm a bit confused on how it's suppose to be harder, unless ou just start doing it with fewer players. Maybe, I'm missing what you're trying to accompolish, but raid targets get easier the more you do it in general, just like everything else in the game.
I think a lot of the issue with modern MMOs and encounters is that bosses lack an element of randomness to their encounters. Fights are usually heavily scripted and once you learn the ability rotation you basically have the answer to the fight.
Personally, I wish encounters had an element of randomness where basically the boss rolled a die internally and that roll determined the next ability being used. It would be up to the players to figure out how to deal with and adapt to this randomness vs learning a scripted fight that never changes. I would also like to see bosses wisen up and deal with threats appropriately, maybe there is a healer that needs to die but the boss is being taunted by the tank, well the boss could or has a chance to send out untuntable adds which have to be blown up, cced, or kited around to prevent deaths.
I think the disposition system is going to help some with this issue, but even then if fights are heavily scripted it's only a matter of time till the player base learns how to deal with each boss manifestation.
Yeah, that doesn't really make it harder, just random in general, and can be easily countered based on what mechnics he has in place, you might need to be more reactive for sure, but once you get the feel for it, it might has well be scripted as it wouldn't be any different in the end.
Though it might make the encounter funner i can give you that, but not nessacarly harder.
I think the main thing is that people aren't realizing is that all encounters to meant to be beaten, and not feel impopssible, like if the devs really wanted to make an encounter hard they could simply just make the mob ignore aggro and kill everyone randomly throughtout the fight and therefore make it impossible to beat, but that would just be dumb and frustrating as nothing is in our control. Which the the main thing once you give the players the control to fight the mob the way you want to and it is effective in killing the mob than that's all you need to do, but taking away that control makes it unfun and pointless to try.
FatedEmperor said:Personally, I wish encounters had an element of randomness where basically the boss rolled a die internally and that roll determined the next ability being used.
This is essentially how some of the later fights in Vanilla WoW (Kel'Thuzad, Sapphiron) work.
For example, Kel'Thuzad has three abilities that are a primary concern for the raid; Frost Blast, which entombs one player (and any player within 10yds of that player) in ice that causes 104% of their health in damage over 5 seconds. Chains of Kel'Thuzad, which is a mind control he casts on his primary threat target and 4 other random members of the raid. And a Frostbolt volley that causes frost damage to everyone in the raid.
The way the mechanics on Kel'Thuzad work is once they are used for the first time, they are put on an internal cooldown, and are only used again within a "window" once that cooldown is finished. For example, he will generally use Frostbolt Volley 15 seconds into the fight, and it will go on cooldown for the boss for 15 seconds. He can use it again at any point after those 15 seconds. So, in a 4 minute fight, he could use the ability 16 times, he could use it only once. It's the same for those other abilities, with varying cooldowns (30 seconds, 60 seconds).
It is essentially the kind of system you are proposing, and, at least after 15 years, it still doesn't make Kel'Thuzad any more difficult of an encounter to defeat for players that know the mechanics.