Let me be CLEAR. This is a lot of opinion based on my understanding of crafting as it stands this date ONLY.
I recently asked Nephele about what it would take to make a dagger from scratch. The purpose was to try and define what components are going to be possible to combine to create an example item so we have some parameters to work with.
6 resources, some the same materials (possibly fit into 3 stacks) with optional ingredient. That's the distilled version.
So, I set out to figure this out. This is to make a normal dagger, nothing special. We know from some of the streams and some of the forum posts that it seems daggers will be made with two subcomponents: hilt (handle for metagamers) and blade (the pointy end for metagamers).
Six ingredients to make both, taking up maybe three slots. The way Nephele worded it, it seemed that he was only counting resources as the term is used for gatherables. So...
Hilt: Core 1 (Metal) + Core 2 (Metal) + Overlay 1 (Wood, leather, metal) +Overlay 2 (Optional Wood, leather, metal) + Mold + magical component (optional Celestium) + Magical component 2 (gem maybe of some kind)
Blade: Core 1 (Metal) + Core 2 (Metal) + Mold + Magical Component (Optional Celestium)
If there are no reagents like water for blacksmithing, then I count a max of 10 for one dagger, each of which can have an impact on the dagger's stats if there are more than one mold for a dagger hilt or dagger blade. I am guess there are since we've been told that there will be rare molds you can find while adventuring to create extra special items.
Stack 1
Cores 1 and 2: There has been much talk of using different types of metal to tune strength and speed of the weapon and a mixing of them to get a balance between. I'm pretty confident on this.
Stack 2
Overlays 1 and 2: Neph has mentioned that hilts will be wrapped with something. Could be metal or leather or wood. Seems like an additional design choice for modding the stats on damage and speed. So why two? There's two thougts.
Stack 3
When Neph said the 6 resources could be stacked into 3 unique stacks, we have to make a decision. Either there's a reagent involved here, like water or coal, OR ther is a third resource in the creation of the hilt. A third option would be that Celestium would be the third ingredient he was accounting for which would mean that blades could be made in simplest form with 1 ttype of resource and hilts could be made with two but one is the same as a blade material.
Simplest version 1 example:
Hilt: Iron + Leather + Coal/Water
Blade: Iron + Coal/Water
Simplest version 2 example:
Hilt: Iron + Leather + Wood
Blade: Iron
Simplest version 3 example:
Hilt: Iron + Leather + Celestium
Blade: Iron + Celesium
The maximum amount is the most intriguing. How many additional items will we be able to give to a weapon like a dagger? Will it be a celestium and another item such as a gem? Probably, from what we've heard. Will we be able to use more than one Celestium on one subcomponent? Probably not. Will molds have the ability to add stats. It sounds that way. That would give 3 additional stat options. That sounds in line with what we've heard from VR. They are NOT looking to go back to other older game ideas with having bonus stats in all categories on one tunic or anything like that. You don't get it all; you pick and choose.
Let me know if I'm off the mark on this.
Could be this way, might not be, but there are 22 items slots, iirc. :)
So... even if it's just +1 STR per slot.. +22 strength. (or any +STAT, or effect, or bonus, or resist, modifier, enhancement, or whatever)
Or, it's not possible, and only half the slots can have +STR, ok, +11 STR/+11 AGI from gear? Or +11 INT/WIS from Gear?
And then amplified by each successive step up.. +2, +3, +4 per slot? The numbers get out of hand pretty quickly, if +1 actually has a measurable effect.
Which then leads designers down the path of being forced into making +1 not have a measurable effect.. which leads to other historical issues.
Or crafted gear is just massively OP. :D
Benonai said:Simplest version 3 example:
Hilt: Iron + Leather + Celestium
Blade: Iron + Celesium
Love the thinking here Benonai. The portion I've quoted is the closest to what we are envisioning in the system right now.
A little more detail:
As a blacksmith, you will have schematics for:
- Small weapon blade
- Basic weapon hilt
Outfitters might have a schematic for "Wrapped weapon hilt" and Jewelcrafters might have a schematic for "Jeweled weapon hilt", both of which would be slightly superior to the basic weapon hilt that a blacksmith makes.
When you enter the crafting interaction, you'll have to choose which schematic you are using. That schematic will tell you what it needs.
So, if you're making the small weapon blade, it might pop up and say it needs:
- Two identical metal bars
If you're making the basic weapon hilt, it might pop up and say:
- One metal bar
If your outfitter friend is making the wrapped weapon hilt, they might see:
- One metal bar
- One circle of leather
Anyway, once you have the blade created, and a hilt from any source, you will then combine those (potentially, along with another optional component) to create your dagger. The stats you get on the finished product will be cumulative - meaning that the stats of the blade will add together with the stats of the hilt to give you the stats of the finished dagger.
As a note, we're going to try to make all of this as intuitive in the UI as possible by launch. So rather than having to remember which steps to do or what materials you need, we want the UI to prompt you and allow you to focus on actually making the dagger instead of having to try to remember that you needed 2 metal bars instead of 1 metal bar and so on.
So for a practical example let's say you have the following:
9 chunks of iron (enough to make 3 iron bars)
2 celestium dust of might
1 celestium shard of the inferno
This would allow you to make 2 iron bars of might, and one regular iron bar. Those 2 bars of might can then be crafted into a small weapon blade of might, and the regular iron bar into a basic small weapon hilt. Combining those two components would give you an Iron Dagger of Might. If you were to include the celestium shards in that final assembly (because your hilt would have a slot for them) then you would get an Iron Dagger of the Inferno (with the Might bonuses included)
Please note that all of the amounts listed above are subject to change during testing. As examples, we might shrink dagger blades down to just need a single metal bar, or we might decide that basic small weapon hilts use wood instead of metal. So these examples are really just intended to give you an idea. Also as I mentioned above, our goal is for the UI to handle most of the aspects of finding/selecting resources and materials for you so that crafting isn't an exercise in sorting through your inventory. Finally I want to note that the schematics I mentioned above are *basic* schematics. During the course of your adventures in Terminus, you might find looted components (like hilts or blades) with special properties. You might also find advanced schematics that, while more complex to create, offer additional bonuses and stats to the items that you use them in. The most powerful crafted items in Pantheon will use a combination of exotic resources, advanced schematics, and looted components to create items that are truly legendary.
Nephele said:During the course of your adventures in Terminus, you might find looted components (like hilts or blades) with special properties. You might also find advanced schematics that, while more complex to create, offer additional bonuses and stats to the items that you use them in.
To vjek's point, and I know this is early in testing it out, do yall have a plan to make sure if all stat slots in weapons and armor are used there is not an OP effect if stats are tuned to be meaningful? It almost seems like there would be too many stats unless building your armor set out with stats is rare enough that a normal xp progression matches about the time it would take to get gear with all those stat bonuses and gear is a piece of progression that needs to accompany a lighter stat upgrade through leveling?
Actually if gear did not use hard numbers, but % bonuses to your stats (like a person who is lvl 10 in 1hs for instance is made 10% better by using this blade and someone who is 150 in 1hs is made 10% better. That would keep twinks from getting out of control, and it makes more logical sense. Using a $600 driver on the golf course is not going to take 15 strokes off my game, just add an increase to my natural level of ability.
Nephele said:Yes, there is a plan.
In the interests of transparency, is there also a schedule regarding at what pont in development this 'plan' would be discussed with the crowdfunding community?
Alpha 1? Alpha 2+? Beta? Post-Launch?
Similarly, is the 'plan' actually something that can and will change after discussion, or will it simply be revealed at or post implementation, at which point, large scale or fundamental changes will be less likely?
I only ask because if it's the latter, there's less point in paying attention, from my perspective, in the context of efficiency.
Being transparent, it's not something we're going to discuss. Itemization, character power, and the effect of cumulative stats are something that we are very closely managing, and we will continue to manage those areas through launch and beyond. However, we are not going to expose the inner workings of those things because 1) they can and will change as development progresses and 2) sharing those sorts of things would actually hinder our ability to achieve the desired experience because they would influence player behavior. It's a situation where if you all know too much you start to min/max around that and the data we collect is skewed as a result.
Rest assured that we are paying attention to the questions that you have raised. They're things we talk about regularly within the team. However, this is one of those areas that's going to remain hidden from players for the time being, so that we can see the choices everyone makes during testing based on what the game itself tells you, rather than information on the forums.
Yeah, I had figured that. vjek got me to thinking about accumulation of stat bonuses and I started making spreadsheets last night to see the effects of adding to a str column vs adding percentage increases just using some simpler formulas. I didnt like in EQ1 how getting a +1 str earring at lvl 15 made you feel good and did absolutely nothing tangible to your output. Even as a rogue, it took at least a +5 str increase before you really noticed numbers in melee dmg and backstab tick up even a point. The only thing that really mattered was wep dmg and speed unless you got gear that boosted all your stats by +20. Looking forward to feeling great when an item gives me stat increases that matter :) Thanks Neph.
