Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Brightness vs. Darkness

    • 364 posts
    April 12, 2021 11:09 PM PDT
    LF1M... Light wielder capable of revealing invisible creatures
    • 2334 posts
    April 12, 2021 11:50 PM PDT

    Jobeson said: LF1M... Light wielder capable of revealing invisible creatures

    Oooo nice.  A light source that makes invis creatures flicker into view for everyone.

    Seen the film Spectral?

    • 1244 posts
    April 13, 2021 8:15 AM PDT

    Sweety said:

    Zorkon said:

    Sweety said:

    Jobeson said: Worry after all lightsources are in game. We will have a dude with a torch, a flaming pet, an orbiting light spell, a glowing paladin, etc. I imagine many lights will be more powerful than simple torches.

    Did you watch the latest stream? Obviously not a finished product. But still, very dark. To the point of not being able to see anything. 

     

    Could you clarify what you mean by "Last Stream" I watch them all... the last 3 of what I call streams (anything I stream from Youtube) had no gameplay... So I'm assuming you mean the March 4th gameplay stream with Baz, Therek, Minus, and Nathan. 
    And in that one I'm not seeing "To the point of not being able to see anything" as you are, It's dark, but doesn't look too dark to me.

     

    I was referring to the March 4th stream, it was the last full game play session. If you watch the stream, when there is no action, it's very dark. Go to 51:20 and watch. This is just a random moment where it demonstrates my point. There are many others. This shows about 10 seconds of nearly pure darkness (other than the glowing blue crystals). Contrast that to the very end of the stream around 1:34:05, which is actually also slightly dark because it’s indoors, but at least you can see.

    To be clear, I think everything looks awesome. Even the dark moments, I just think after a while, I am just going to maximize the brightness in the settings because I am going to grow tired of not being able too my surroundings. But to some, that’s what they like. So, each there own.

    URL to the video for convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvA4o3tNLEQ&ab_channel=Pantheon%3ARiseoftheFallen

    I see what your talking about now, But I'd like to point out that at the time stamp you pointed out 51:20 nobody has any light source, Seem's like it only makes sense for it to be too dark in dark places when you have no light source.

    We have been told Pantheon is going to emphasize PVE as Player Vs. Environment. Darkness is naturally part of the environment a huge part, But I'll be let down if they don't take it to new heights on ways, means to mitigate it. If they just make it dark and give us a torch then I'm with you, thats not PVE that annoyance.
    Campfires
    Flaming arrows shot and stuck in the ground down a passageway that burn for a few min.
    Torches dropped on the ground as we head down a passageway  that burn for a few min. that can light the way back, or help mitigate no map and players to find us
    Spells that flash Daylight through a whole cavern for 30-60 seconds
     
    Darkness is one of the purest forms of environment, but if it's just the same'ol ways to mitigate it where we carry a torch for 15 levels then forget about it, I'll be a bit let down (Insert negative "pantheon turned out to be just another fly by night MMO and not an RPG" comment here) 
    • 411 posts
    April 13, 2021 8:57 AM PDT
    Meaningful darkness allows for the addition of many interesting things.
    • oil flasks that can be thrown then the oil set on fire (or even just Molotov cocktails)
    • Flaming arrows that do minimal damage but stick to walls and provide illumination.
    • glowing holy symbols in equipment.
    • magic items which glow a specific color in the presence of specific enemies
    • hidden runes or markers which can only be seen in total darkness

    @Sweety,
    I think darkness outside should have some faint light and have good silhouettes. Darkness in caves should be absolute.
    • 1641 posts
    April 13, 2021 8:58 AM PDT

    IMO:
    Requirements for light sources are great until you realize you (potentially) have to give up a weapon, tome/book, or similar 'hand' worth of stats/effects to wield them.
    Or in the case of a 2-handed weapon, you can't use them at all because the torch is a one handed item/weapon.

    Implementation details matter.  If it's going to be a tedious macro-required item swap between a light source and pure-darkness combat, not so much with the fun.
    Even worse if you get stuck in combat while wielding the torch, and can't equip your weapon(s) at all due to 'reasons', 'restrictions' or 'LAS'.

    Then, it's not meaningful choice, it's just pure annoying frustration, and entirely un-fun.
    Sure, some casters may be able to have a personal floating light source.  Now what about all the classes that can't?
    Can you cast it on others?  Is the duration punitive?  Does it require keeping a spell on a particular 'active' hotbar for each sustained light source on a group member?  Could be good, could be -really- bad, in the fun department.

    There's no doubt, it can be done in fun, challenging, and immersive ways.  So far, not seeing those FUN public design goals confirmed, for 'carried' and _required_ light sources for non-magic classes.

    • 90 posts
    April 13, 2021 10:05 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    IMO:
    Requirements for light sources are great until you realize you (potentially) have to give up a weapon, tome/book, or similar 'hand' worth of stats/effects to wield them.
    Or in the case of a 2-handed weapon, you can't use them at all because the torch is a one handed item/weapon.

    Implementation details matter.  If it's going to be a tedious macro-required item swap between a light source and pure-darkness combat, not so much with the fun.
    Even worse if you get stuck in combat while wielding the torch, and can't equip your weapon(s) at all due to 'reasons', 'restrictions' or 'LAS'.

    Then, it's not meaningful choice, it's just pure annoying frustration, and entirely un-fun.
    Sure, some casters may be able to have a personal floating light source.  Now what about all the classes that can't?
    Can you cast it on others?  Is the duration punitive?  Does it require keeping a spell on a particular 'active' hotbar for each sustained light source on a group member?  Could be good, could be -really- bad, in the fun department.

    There's no doubt, it can be done in fun, challenging, and immersive ways.  So far, not seeing those FUN public design goals confirmed, for 'carried' and _required_ light sources for non-magic classes.

    I'm in the same boat as Vjek here. I get the immersion factor of needing the light source for dark areas, but I also don't want it to be tedious and intefere with my fun.

    I've also been on the side of OP about the lighting throughout the streams and what we've seen in game. I just feel like it's been really dark. Would I look past this if other aspects of the game were fun and enjoyable with the lighting taken in to consideration? Yes, I would. Would I prefer something else? Yes, yes I would. 

    Not a deal breaker, but a small concern to say the least. 

    • 362 posts
    April 13, 2021 3:25 PM PDT

    If they are building a world, it will have a balance between lightness and darkness.  Let there be a natural order of things and it will all shakedown well.  There are nocturnal creatures and they are people too.  To balance that, many humanoid races always have some light to keep the night creatures away.  Let the world inhabitants dictate what is happening.  In turn the players will decide how they wiill deal with it...  that's the fun part.

    I imagine an underwater cave system would be awesome to explore.

     


    This post was edited by Caine at April 13, 2021 3:26 PM PDT
    • 1244 posts
    April 13, 2021 5:32 PM PDT

    Caine said:

    If they are building a world, it will have a balance between lightness and darkness.  Let there be a natural order of things and it will all shakedown well.  There are nocturnal creatures and they are people too.  To balance that, many humanoid races always have some light to keep the night creatures away.  Let the world inhabitants dictate what is happening.  In turn the players will decide how they wiill deal with it...  that's the fun part.

    I imagine an underwater cave system would be awesome to explore.

     

    Interesting idea dark underwater caves. Torches or flamng swords would be of no use here, only those that could seek out and aquire light sources unsusceptable to moisture would be able to take a dungon like this on. (Horazontal Progression) Benifits to this zone should increase as well (aka "HOT Zone") 

     

    • 364 posts
    April 13, 2021 5:49 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    IMO:
    Requirements for light sources are great until you realize you (potentially) have to give up a weapon, tome/book, or similar 'hand' worth of stats/effects to wield them.
    Or in the case of a 2-handed weapon, you can't use them at all because the torch is a one handed item/weapon.

    We already know the torch is a weapon for melee.  This is not a shock to devs nor to the people who see players attacking creatures with a torch in hand.  If you want to try to have a light out, then quick swap for a fight, then quick swap back to move that is on you to handle it so you can up your off hand DPS.  Groups will need people with lights.  If you are in a group of martials expect a few more people to hold lights.

    If you think you should be able to warp a torch out of your pack, into your hand, already lit I hope you are ultimately disapointed.  I had enough warping equipment with WoW.  It takes time to do things

    Making the wrong choice can be frustrating, but making choices are important.  Without the wrong choice as an option you can never have fun making the right one.  I hope players get punished by having insufficient lights in the same way they can be punished by having noone with spell interrupts or noone with stuns or noone with snares or noone with repositioning attacks. Finding the balance within the group is important.  If the creature adapted to fighting in total darkness is not in bright light they get advantage on the attacks.  Suddenly players are combatting the environment as pantheon has sold the idea time and time again.  The torch you hate so much for taking your DPS should be viewed as debuffing your enemies natural advantage of fighting in complete darkness.  If you want to take the risk 1 light is enough that is up to you and your group. 

    • 6 posts
    April 13, 2021 5:56 PM PDT

    I love the idea of Darkness being relevant to dungeon crawling and exploration.  The ideas of having creatures react differently to light sources (such as the mobs that fear fire) adds great options and the ambience that we will get in different environments will add to the depth and feel of the game overall.

    perhaps some dungeons will have empty wall sconces placed around that players can deposit torches into and keep dark areas lit for a set period of time behind them? hidden light sensitive wall mechanisms that open secret chambers? or even some hidden lore accessible only in certain light situations.

    • 1641 posts
    April 13, 2021 6:50 PM PDT

    Jobeson said: ... If you are in a group of martials expect a few more people to hold lights. ... 

    IMO:

    In your view, then, Jobeson, should the sword and board folks give up the shield or the sword, to wield their torch?
    Or should the two handed sword wielders keep their offhand empty, or be required to carry two sets of weapons?

    Or the monk that wants to use a 2-handed staff carry another set of weapons?
    Or the ranger that wants to use a bow that uses both hands, what are his options? Switch to a one handed throwing weapon?

    • 364 posts
    April 13, 2021 8:07 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Jobeson said: ... If you are in a group of martials expect a few more people to hold lights. ... 

    IMO:

    In your view, then, Jobeson, should the sword and board folks give up the shield or the sword, to wield their torch?
    Or should the two handed sword wielders keep their offhand empty, or be required to carry two sets of weapons?

    Or the monk that wants to use a 2-handed staff carry another set of weapons?
    Or the ranger that wants to use a bow that uses both hands, what are his options? Switch to a one handed throwing weapon?

    If you are planning to play pantheon with a singular playstyle I expect you will hit this wall a great deal.  Similar to the LAS and mastery system your choices will matter with weapon types. 

    Yes I expect people to adapt to play through various situations, just as I expect casters to have spells to fit different situations.  If you Minmax into fire as a wizard I will laugh at you in the lava filled zone full of fire elementals or the underwater zone that halves fire damage.  People need options, damage types should matter, this includes melee.  If a creatures are resistant or immune to piercing I expect the ranger to go up and slash at them as they are prepared to play their class. 

    If noone is willing to do what is needed to get the group through the dark cave then the group won't be going into the dark cave.  It is the same as no one being willing to interrupt casters. 

    If underwater combat means your two hand club is a far worse weapon than a spear and you refuse to adapt then it is on you to find a group who wants you and your two hand club in under water combat.

    • 1641 posts
    April 13, 2021 9:25 PM PDT

    IMO:

    Well, that puts a damper on playing any 2 handed weapon classes, for sure, for me. :) Paladin, Dire Lord, Warrior, Monk, Ranger.  Rough times ahead.

    Oh well, no big deal, right?  I'm sure 1 handed will be just fine for all of them, in any dark area. 
    There's no way there will be shield specific or two-handed-weapon specific skills, spells, or abillities.. so I'm sure there's nothing to be concerned about, and they can just carry a full set of all the weapons required, all the time. :D

    • 364 posts
    April 14, 2021 12:22 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    IMO:

    Well, that puts a damper on playing any 2 handed weapon classes, for sure, for me. :) Paladin, Dire Lord, Warrior, Monk, Ranger.  Rough times ahead.

    Oh well, no big deal, right?  I'm sure 1 handed will be just fine for all of them, in any dark area. 
    There's no way there will be shield specific or two-handed-weapon specific skills, spells, or abillities.. so I'm sure there's nothing to be concerned about, and they can just carry a full set of all the weapons required, all the time. :D

    I am sure no fights will involve mobility, making longer cast times harder to use.

    I am sure no fights will involve a damage shields making dual wielding problematic.

    I am sure no fights will involve silences or reflect spells making spells harder to use.

    I am sure nothing will ever reduce healing recieved.

    I am sure no dispositions will ever counter anything important. 

    I am sure bows still shoot long range underwater.

    I am not sure if you will stay up horrified at these points or laugh at them, but adventuring is about overcoming problems.  :D

     

    On a serious note a while back I had a post about if players will be able to drop torches on the ground in order to fight with their two handers.  I still think its a cool idea taken from DnD mechanics.  Could be improved by floor type.  If stone or generic floor torch dims but produces a small stationary light.  If wet floor torch goes out.  If flamable floor :D I would love to see a mechanic like that come into play for Pantheon torches.  It all goes back to waiting for all of the light sources to be in the game before flipping out about it being dark though.  However now I hope they give a hideous helmet that mounts a torch at the end just so I can watch people headbutt wall mounted torches to light them. 

    • 2334 posts
    April 14, 2021 1:57 AM PDT

    Jobeson said:

    vjek said:

    Jobeson said: ... If you are in a group of martials expect a few more people to hold lights. ... 

    IMO:

    In your view, then, Jobeson, should the sword and board folks give up the shield or the sword, to wield their torch?
    Or should the two handed sword wielders keep their offhand empty, or be required to carry two sets of weapons?

    Or the monk that wants to use a 2-handed staff carry another set of weapons?
    Or the ranger that wants to use a bow that uses both hands, what are his options? Switch to a one handed throwing weapon?

    If you are planning to play pantheon with a singular playstyle I expect you will hit this wall a great deal.  Similar to the LAS and mastery system your choices will matter with weapon types. 

    Yes I expect people to adapt to play through various situations, just as I expect casters to have spells to fit different situations.  If you Minmax into fire as a wizard I will laugh at you in the lava filled zone full of fire elementals or the underwater zone that halves fire damage.  People need options, damage types should matter, this includes melee.  If a creatures are resistant or immune to piercing I expect the ranger to go up and slash at them as they are prepared to play their class. 

    If noone is willing to do what is needed to get the group through the dark cave then the group won't be going into the dark cave.  It is the same as no one being willing to interrupt casters. 

    If underwater combat means your two hand club is a far worse weapon than a spear and you refuse to adapt then it is on you to find a group who wants you and your two hand club in under water combat.

    Gods forbid any class is inconvenienced by an aspect of their adventure eh?  Needing to diverge from my chosen optimum playstyle?!  Nooooooo!

    I agree with Jobeson.  Yes, darkness might be more of an issue to overcome for certain classes (and races if there is infravision, maybe).  I was of the understanding it was pretty fundamental and desired in Pantheon for characters to be versatile and interdependant for a plethora of reasons?

    Maybe the 2-hander user doesn't *need* to hold a torch if a 1-hander in the party does and sticks close? Or if a wizard keeps their 2-hander glowing? If the whole party has 2-handers, well, then, they are of an odd composition that must expect some difficulties in lots of aspects, surely?

    This reminds me of the attitude of some players in Battlefield: Things that you can't take on 1vs1 in your favoured playstyle are somehow unfair or just bad.  Tanks, planes and other powerful non-soloable content are fundamental to the Battlefield experience and it's a multi-player, cooperative game, not just a free-for-all deathmatch.  It's what differentiates Battlefield and makes it better than other shooters.  Coordinate with your team mates.  There are plenty of ways to counter everything in the game, though you might not be able to just run at them on your own without changing how you usually play.  It's a big part of the challenge and of the fun to be versatile and to work with others.  I'm not going to go play a carefully balanced infantry deathmatch game and complain there aren't any tanks.

    • 1244 posts
    April 14, 2021 12:17 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    IMO:

    Well, that puts a damper on playing any 2 handed weapon classes, for sure, for me. :) Paladin, Dire Lord, Warrior, Monk, Ranger.  Rough times ahead.

    Oh well, no big deal, right?  I'm sure 1 handed will be just fine for all of them, in any dark area. 
    There's no way there will be shield specific or two-handed-weapon specific skills, spells, or abillities.. so I'm sure there's nothing to be concerned about, and they can just carry a full set of all the weapons required, all the time. :D

    Amusing how you can't seem to get your mind arround any other light source than a basic torch off some Orc Pawn, when Aradune has been duel wielding flaming swords from as far back as I can remember.

    • 362 posts
    April 14, 2021 12:40 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    vjek said:

    IMO:

    Well, that puts a damper on playing any 2 handed weapon classes, for sure, for me. :) Paladin, Dire Lord, Warrior, Monk, Ranger.  Rough times ahead.

    Oh well, no big deal, right?  I'm sure 1 handed will be just fine for all of them, in any dark area. 
    There's no way there will be shield specific or two-handed-weapon specific skills, spells, or abillities.. so I'm sure there's nothing to be concerned about, and they can just carry a full set of all the weapons required, all the time. :D

    Amusing how you can't seem to get your mind arround any other light source than a basic torch off some Orc Pawn, when Aradune has been duel wielding flaming swords from as far back as I can remember.

     

    I am sure there will be a "Order of the Monks Spelunking Chi lit head band" available.  Though some monks can hold their torch with their nuts.... lol

    • 195 posts
    April 14, 2021 12:59 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    vjek said:

    IMO:

    Well, that puts a damper on playing any 2 handed weapon classes, for sure, for me. :) Paladin, Dire Lord, Warrior, Monk, Ranger.  Rough times ahead.

    Oh well, no big deal, right?  I'm sure 1 handed will be just fine for all of them, in any dark area. 
    There's no way there will be shield specific or two-handed-weapon specific skills, spells, or abillities.. so I'm sure there's nothing to be concerned about, and they can just carry a full set of all the weapons required, all the time. :D

    Amusing how you can't seem to get your mind arround any other light source than a basic torch off some Orc Pawn, when Aradune has been duel wielding flaming swords from as far back as I can remember.

    What no love for the shiny brass shield?


    This post was edited by Gintoki88 at April 14, 2021 12:59 PM PDT
    • 1244 posts
    April 14, 2021 1:46 PM PDT

    Caine said:

    Zorkon said:

    vjek said:

    IMO:

    Well, that puts a damper on playing any 2 handed weapon classes, for sure, for me. :) Paladin, Dire Lord, Warrior, Monk, Ranger.  Rough times ahead.

    Oh well, no big deal, right?  I'm sure 1 handed will be just fine for all of them, in any dark area. 
    There's no way there will be shield specific or two-handed-weapon specific skills, spells, or abillities.. so I'm sure there's nothing to be concerned about, and they can just carry a full set of all the weapons required, all the time. :D

    Amusing how you can't seem to get your mind arround any other light source than a basic torch off some Orc Pawn, when Aradune has been duel wielding flaming swords from as far back as I can remember.

     

    I am sure there will be a "Order of the Monks Spelunking Chi lit head band" available.  Though some monks can hold their torch with their nuts.... lol

    Well, any good monk can!

    I just checked everquest.allakhazam everquest.allakhazam and only looking at Ultravision items they list 141 differant items, now this doesn't count any of the lesser sight items like Serpent Sight. I also know that it's not likely Pantheon will launch with 141 choices. But I think safe to assume there will be more than just a small tourch.

    what Slot will we loose? as an example one of those EQ items Level to Attain:20

    everquest.allakhazam says:
    Night Agent Gravestone Fragment
    LORE ITEM NO TRADE PRESTIGE AUGMENTATION
    Augmentation type: 3
    Slot: HEAD FACE EAR NECK SHOULDERS ARMS BACK WRIST RANGE HANDS PRIMARY SECONDARY FINGER CHEST LEGS FEET WAIST
    Recommended level of 55.
    Effect: Ultravision (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
    WT: 0.0 Size: TINY
    Class: ALL
    Race: ALL

     

     

     
    • 53 posts
    April 19, 2021 5:25 AM PDT

    Look at the underwater dungeons / night maps / foggy maps in any game - empty and unpopular.

    As I get older, and my eyesight is less sharp I hate low vis myself, and find myself turning up gamma.

     

    Therefore if any of these are used, it should be sparingly and the area should also offer increased rewards or drive people to them  (e.g. part of epics, or a tunnel that is a shortcut to a common travel path) - otherwise they will sit there empty forever or be patched by e.g. adding ultravision to low level items. Also minimal restricted vis/movment zones in newbie areas - will scare people off.

     

     

    • 362 posts
    April 19, 2021 7:11 PM PDT

    I really think Deep Rock Galactic takes great advantage of Darkness and works it into the gameplay nicely.  The Biomes contain light, but are balanced with Darkness.  This game really stands on it own, it's awesome.  and also an excellent example.

     

    https://www.deeprockgalactic.com/


    This post was edited by Caine at April 19, 2021 7:11 PM PDT
    • 723 posts
    April 20, 2021 4:36 AM PDT

    Who's to say that a torch can't be just thrown on the ground to light up the general area and picked up after the fight?

    This doesn't even take into affect possible sight spells, light spells, magic items that give off light. There are plenty of ways of dealing with darkness in a fantasy world.

     

    • 362 posts
    April 20, 2021 4:50 AM PDT

    Fulton said:

    Who's to say that a torch can't be just thrown on the ground to light up the general area and picked up after the fight?

    This doesn't even take into affect possible sight spells, light spells, magic items that give off light. There are plenty of ways of dealing with darkness in a fantasy world.

     

    yes, a tortch on the ground should emit a lower percentage of light, like 65%, than a mounted torch on the wall or hand held.

    • 1244 posts
    April 20, 2021 7:29 PM PDT

    @Caine shared a link in the Off Topic post The caves of Landmark are alive in Deep Rock Galactic to a video of a game called Deep Rock Galactic that really illustrates a partial bit of how I would like to see Pantheon handle darkness. The players throwing light sources out ahead of them to light dark areas as they advance. I wouldn't want to see this being the ONLY way, I'm sure the team could be creative enough to come up with lots of options. Flaming arrows from rangers, Fireballs from Wizards, Glowing orbs from Enchanters, etc.

     the vidio is a good example of how it could work
    • 107 posts
    April 21, 2021 2:43 AM PDT

    I will be honest and say that, I've not read all of the comments in this thread, but from those I did read, I haven't seen anyone mention spell buffs to improve vision, or racial passives. For example, one of the benefits people enjoyed from the Dark Elf race in Everquest was their natual 'ultravision' racial passive bonus.

    Some classes were able to cast buffs to improve vision in dark environments also, much in the same way you could obtain water breathing for zones under water, or beg for a Spirit of Wolf to increase your movement speed whilst traveling. This all equates to the environment itself being a formidable component of adventuring to overcome, and it also allows for classes to have some added utility that's not specifically related to combat.

    There are so many ways to flood an area with light, torches, night vision, ultravision, camp fires, flaming swords, maybe a player crafted portable light source that can be placed temporarily, and moved around? Useful objects like this, which can be crafted are always good as they increase the desirability of trade skills without being in direct competition with the armour / weapon loot tables.

    Ultimately, darkness in dark places is exactly what you'd want / expect to see in a game that's trying to make the environment matter once again.