Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Brightness vs. Darkness

    • 226 posts
    April 10, 2021 12:18 PM PDT

    I recently re-watched the Mar 4, 2021 gameplay stream. I have a laundry list of things I loved. But just a couple of things that bothered me. The most obvious was the lighting in the dungeon. I realize the it’s a dungeon, it’s supposed to be dark. However, it was so dark you couldn’t see the characters unless magic damage (for example) lit up the room and that only lasted for a moment. Playing in pure darkness has it’s alure, but I think it’s overkill for a 2 hour dungeon crawl. I would hope we can at least see the character models.

    This led me to go back and watch a few other gameplay videos and I noticed a similar trend. On Sep 24, 2020 the gameplay is outdoors in sunlight. Even in broad daylight the game feels dark and dimly light. Perhaps the shadows are to dark? I realize this footage is pre-alpha. I know it’s very far from final. I just wanted to raise this point and see if anyone feels the same way. I worry the beautiful world and amazing character models won't be fully appreciated.

    Perhaps it’s just me, but I like a mixture of dark dungeons (that I can at least see my toon) and a bright and beautiful landscapes. What say you?

    • 724 posts
    April 10, 2021 1:38 PM PDT

    While I kind of get your point, IMO this is an area where I want more realism (as it is now). If you're in a cave, it will be dark...better come prepared with torches or other light sources! That's what the guys in the stream didn't do (or at least, they didn't use them consistently). There will be torches as mentioned, also some classes will have spells to give light (druids, clerics), and I'm sure there will be other light sources as well. EQ had some headgear that gave light for example, something like that could be in Pantheon too.

    Another question is, will (and should?) items in your inventory work as light source? In EQ, lightstones worked even if they were in your inventory. Something like that would make things a lot easier of course, if you don't have to make a choice between wearing your shield or a torch :)

    As for the outside lighting? I guess in the older streams, they may not have had true simulated sunlight yet, instead only static light? So it could appear unrealistic.

    • 392 posts
    April 10, 2021 3:40 PM PDT

    Thats kinda one of the perks of an mmo is that there will be multiple flavors of dungeons.

    Safe bet you'll see a lava themed one that should be pretty lit up.

    • 1281 posts
    April 10, 2021 3:49 PM PDT

    There are going to be lightsources, both equipible and magical, to help you see better.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at April 10, 2021 3:49 PM PDT
    • 1428 posts
    April 10, 2021 10:05 PM PDT
    its part of the acclimation system "darkness"
    level up or bring a torch
    boop
    • 1479 posts
    April 11, 2021 2:32 AM PDT

    Sweety said:

    I recently re-watched the Mar 4, 2021 gameplay stream. I have a laundry list of things I loved. But just a couple of things that bothered me. The most obvious was the lighting in the dungeon. I realize the it’s a dungeon, it’s supposed to be dark. However, it was so dark you couldn’t see the characters unless magic damage (for example) lit up the room and that only lasted for a moment. Playing in pure darkness has it’s alure, but I think it’s overkill for a 2 hour dungeon crawl. I would hope we can at least see the character models.

    This led me to go back and watch a few other gameplay videos and I noticed a similar trend. On Sep 24, 2020 the gameplay is outdoors in sunlight. Even in broad daylight the game feels dark and dimly light. Perhaps the shadows are to dark? I realize this footage is pre-alpha. I know it’s very far from final. I just wanted to raise this point and see if anyone feels the same way. I worry the beautiful world and amazing character models won't be fully appreciated.

    Perhaps it’s just me, but I like a mixture of dark dungeons (that I can at least see my toon) and a bright and beautiful landscapes. What say you?

     

    Too much used to MMO's where even night and dark places had invisible light source to make sure you see everything, I guess.

     

    It's not meant to be the case here, if there is no light there is no light, and it's for your own sake to bring a lightsource there by yourself.

    • 2756 posts
    April 11, 2021 3:53 AM PDT

    I understand the comment, Sweety, but I'm in two minds.

    There's a few maps in the Battlefield 1 game that are played in night-time.  They look super cool and are amazingly atmospheric.  Imagine WW1 combat at night, by moonlight and occasional lamplight, in the trenches or a bombed-out French town.  Just awesome.

    BUT you find that people don't vote for them (there is a voting system at the end of each match to vote for the next map played).  I also find that, though I perhaps value variety and immersion more than most shooter players, *I* sometimes am not in the mood for them.

    Even though they are fantastically atmospheric and gorgeous, the gameplay effect can be off-putting and a bit fatiguing.

    And then you end up in one... and then you remember that, although it's occasionally frustrating, say, when someone hides in a dark corner and ambushes you with no chance of you seeing them, it is a fantastically atmospheric experience and 'worth it'.

    I guess, overall, I agree with you, that darkness can be annoying and a mixture is good, but I'm really looking forward to having to have torch-bearers in a dungeon with all the immersion and atmos that brings.

    It brings to mind that first terrifying session in Everquest when night fell in the forest outside Crushbone and I realised that I didn't have a torch and I could see nearly nothing and I knew there were orcs around that were deadly...  I could hear them all around me hehe...  It was wonderful!  But, if it had often been that way it would have become an awfully tiring experience.

    Oh, and re. deep dark shadows in daylight?  Yeah that would become annoying if you're having to whip out a torch regularly in the daytime.

    • 248 posts
    April 11, 2021 5:31 AM PDT

    Personally I really liked the darkness and the atmosphere it created in the dungeon. The glowing crystals and the dungeon walls lighting up when spells were used, shadows dancing.
    Also, as Gintoki88 said, there might be lava themed ones and then there are the icy caverns of Amberfaet, which seem very different from the dark one we saw in this stream.
    I would absolutly love many different flavoured dungeons to explore.

    I don't think we should view the outside light in those streams mentioned anyway final. I'm sure it will be worked on a while yet. But I hope the landscapes aren't all bright and beautiful, but that there will be murky swamps and old dense and dark forests etc. too.


    -sorte.

    • 2419 posts
    April 11, 2021 7:55 AM PDT

    Sweety said:

    Perhaps it’s just me, but I like a mixture of dark dungeons (that I can at least see my toon) and a bright and beautiful landscapes. What say you?

    I do so love the fact that there are places in dungeons, so far, that are so dark that  you cannot see anything.  That said, we do need to be thinking about the opposite.  While we have not yet seen any examples of buffs that affect vision, if those are to be included, they must have a downside.  To have a spell buff that lets you see in the dark should make any areas full of light also blind you by making everything way too bright.  A whiteout vs a blackout. 

    • 1399 posts
    April 11, 2021 9:32 AM PDT

    I think darkness, even pitch black zero visibility darkness  (if you don't have a light source) I've experienced that in real life, where even the moon light was blocked by clouds and fir trees, walking down the country road by feel. I'm not concerned at all about the darkness I've seen in Pantheon. What does concern me is how short lived it may be, using EQ as an example, by lvl 15 we all have darkness permanently mitigated and we never look back (ultra vision items) seems to me considering 50 levels we now have 35 levels of wasted opportunity.

    • Torches need to burn out.
    • Spells need to wear off.
    • Flaming Swords need ignited.  (Game of thrones)
    • Glowing Staffs been activated (Gandolf)

    Once permanent items are introduced you have people fighting over the drop and darkness may as well be removed from the game. It's at that point darkness is nothing more than wasted programming time.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at April 11, 2021 10:09 AM PDT
    • 226 posts
    April 11, 2021 11:49 PM PDT

    These replies are very encouraging. I didn’t think about the idea of having to carry or find items to provide light. Such a cool idea! Love it. Still, I hope the overall game has a brighter feel when traversing the world outside. Just a personal preference. 

    Thanks for the ideas, my hope is restored!


    This post was edited by Sweety at April 11, 2021 11:49 PM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    April 12, 2021 4:08 AM PDT

    Realistic is good. Attractive is good.

    In a game with a significant death penalty - is it good to be in an area with dangerous enemies around where you cannot see a thing? Maybe less good to play than to look at.

    While we consider realism - consider that torches and campfires are wonderful devices. Wonderful for destroying *your* night vision while giving any hostiles a wonderful target. Plus 4 for them to hit and -4 for you to hit, perhaps.

    • 888 posts
    April 12, 2021 1:13 PM PDT
    I'm very much in favor of more realistic darkness, especially if it changes things up tactically. Some mobs could be drawn to the light while others fear it. The tank could decide to switch from shield to torch. Or battle locations can be influenced by setting / throwing torches. Sometimes it's the light that matters, while other times it's the fire, so fire light can trigger a different response to magic light.

    Imagine anyone encounter where one mob-type would attempt to extinguish torches (and magically dim magic light). While this is going on, you can hear load roars and smashing sounds. The dimmer the light, the closer the sounds get. If all lights go out, a giant beast charges in. (I'd name it "Alux,", though "Grue" would be appropriate as well).
    • 226 posts
    April 12, 2021 1:53 PM PDT

    Counterfleche said:

    I'm very much in favor of more realistic darkness, especially if it changes things up tactically. Some mobs could be drawn to the light while others fear it. The tank could decide to switch from shield to torch. Or battle locations can be influenced by setting / throwing torches. Sometimes it's the light that matters, while other times it's the fire, so fire light can trigger a different response to magic light.

    Imagine anyone encounter where one mob-type would attempt to extinguish torches (and magically dim magic light). While this is going on, you can hear load roars and smashing sounds. The dimmer the light, the closer the sounds get. If all lights go out, a giant beast charges in. (I'd name it "Alux,", though "Grue" would be appropriate as well).

    I love all of this. My question is about the overall brightness of the game. When I play a new game, I have a habit going into the settings and turning up the brightness so I can see everything better. Dungeons should be dark, sure. But, does that mean I should see nothing at all, unless I am holding a torch or using a fire spell? 


    This post was edited by Sweety at April 12, 2021 1:57 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    April 12, 2021 2:06 PM PDT

    Sweety said:

     Dungeons should be dark, sure. But, does that mean I should see nothing at all, unless I am holding a torch or using a fire spell? 

    Some of them. Depends on the inhabitants. 

    • 226 posts
    April 12, 2021 2:27 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Sweety said:

     Dungeons should be dark, sure. But, does that mean I should see nothing at all, unless I am holding a torch or using a fire spell? 

    Some of them. Depends on the inhabitants. 

    Well, that would be the ultimate realism wouldn’t it? lol. 

    • 2752 posts
    April 12, 2021 3:26 PM PDT

    I mean, even night time in various environments should be very dark. This gives so much room for flavorful player buffs to help traverse these areas or rare items that give off light etc. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at April 12, 2021 3:26 PM PDT
    • 810 posts
    April 12, 2021 4:30 PM PDT
    Worry after all lightsources are in game. We will have a dude with a torch, a flaming pet, an orbiting light spell, a glowing paladin, etc. I imagine many lights will be more powerful than simple torches.
    • 226 posts
    April 12, 2021 4:35 PM PDT

    Jobeson said: Worry after all lightsources are in game. We will have a dude with a torch, a flaming pet, an orbiting light spell, a glowing paladin, etc. I imagine many lights will be more powerful than simple torches.

    Did you watch the latest stream? Obviously not a finished product. But still, very dark. To the point of not being able to see anything. 

     

    • 1399 posts
    April 12, 2021 6:03 PM PDT

    Sweety said:

    Jobeson said: Worry after all lightsources are in game. We will have a dude with a torch, a flaming pet, an orbiting light spell, a glowing paladin, etc. I imagine many lights will be more powerful than simple torches.

    Did you watch the latest stream? Obviously not a finished product. But still, very dark. To the point of not being able to see anything. 

     

    Could you clarify what you mean by "Last Stream" I watch them all... the last 3 of what I call streams (anything I stream from Youtube) had no gameplay... So I'm assuming you mean the March 4th gameplay stream with Baz, Therek, Minus, and Nathan. 
    And in that one I'm not seeing "To the point of not being able to see anything" as you are, It's dark, but doesn't look too dark to me.

     

    • 226 posts
    April 12, 2021 6:32 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    Sweety said:

    Jobeson said: Worry after all lightsources are in game. We will have a dude with a torch, a flaming pet, an orbiting light spell, a glowing paladin, etc. I imagine many lights will be more powerful than simple torches.

    Did you watch the latest stream? Obviously not a finished product. But still, very dark. To the point of not being able to see anything. 

     

    Could you clarify what you mean by "Last Stream" I watch them all... the last 3 of what I call streams (anything I stream from Youtube) had no gameplay... So I'm assuming you mean the March 4th gameplay stream with Baz, Therek, Minus, and Nathan. 
    And in that one I'm not seeing "To the point of not being able to see anything" as you are, It's dark, but doesn't look too dark to me.

     

    I was referring to the March 4th stream, it was the last full game play session. If you watch the stream, when there is no action, it's very dark. Go to 51:20 and watch. This is just a random moment where it demonstrates my point. There are many others. This shows about 10 seconds of nearly pure darkness (other than the glowing blue crystals). Contrast that to the very end of the stream around 1:34:05, which is actually also slightly dark because it’s indoors, but at least you can see.

    To be clear, I think everything looks awesome. Even the dark moments, I just think after a while, I am just going to maximize the brightness in the settings because I am going to grow tired of not being able too my surroundings. But to some, that’s what they like. So, each there own.

    URL to the video for convenience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvA4o3tNLEQ&ab_channel=Pantheon%3ARiseoftheFallen


    This post was edited by Sweety at April 12, 2021 6:33 PM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    April 12, 2021 6:45 PM PDT

    Sweety said:

    Jobeson said: Worry after all lightsources are in game. We will have a dude with a torch, a flaming pet, an orbiting light spell, a glowing paladin, etc. I imagine many lights will be more powerful than simple torches.

    Did you watch the latest stream? Obviously not a finished product. But still, very dark. To the point of not being able to see anything.

    But not for vast swaths of a zone. You're literally talking a few meters here and there.  It would be one thing to go into a dungeon and find no light sources anywhere* but come on, you're worried about bits of darkness here and there.  Insignificant in the big picture of an entire zone.

    *Honeslty, I would love to see a dungeon that had no internal light sources at all.  The Dead Vaults, for example, why should mindless undead care if the place is well lit or not?  Which one of them is going around relighting all the torches that burn out?  The undead janitor?

    • 810 posts
    April 12, 2021 7:27 PM PDT
    Yes, I saw the stream and agree it is very dark. If torches were going to be the only form of light I would be worried, but they are not. It is something that can be easily addressed in game before it goes live. Someone holding a focused bullseye lantern could give distance to the group a long beam but only directionally, the magical lights, especially if they have masteries could very well be far brighter than a torch... Possibly even producing sunlight that could be used to harm some creatures or simply the brightness may increase agro range. They could even create a creature like the weeping angels of dr who. If you don't keep them in the light (looking at them) they will be trying to kill you.

    There is a ton of stuff they can do with light. It would be a waste to be torches for all forever.
    • 256 posts
    April 12, 2021 7:33 PM PDT

    There has been talk about adding darkness as an environmental climate and several classes are also suppose to get skills that help light up the environment. I like the fact that there are dark areas because it puts emphasis on items that can provide light, and adds desirability for classes who have skills that help with vision. 

    I don't want to see a non-climate area be so dark that you can see anything, there needs to be some sort of light source. But I'm ok with the concept of darker environments where it makes sense.  

    • 2756 posts
    April 12, 2021 10:51 PM PDT

    Jobeson said: Worry after all lightsources are in game. We will have a dude with a torch, a flaming pet, an orbiting light spell, a glowing paladin, etc. I imagine many lights will be more powerful than simple torches.

    I think you are right. There will be a lot of light sources in game eventually and it shouldn't be painfully problematic in a dungeon to be able to see, but it still should be exciting and immersive and provide *some* small risk in that you might miss those damned spiders that crawl out of the walls at you until they are on you, or flickering shadows might get you disoriented and you turn the wrong way into a monster.

    Initially, though, I'm looking forward to the 'basic' feel of sometimes needing to actually hold a torch, much like those low level days in the forest outside Crushbone (in EQ).

    Even later in the game, it might be beneficial to break out a torch when looking closely at something in a dark corridor.

    Great potential, but it shouldn't be too problematic.