Thorndeep said:There is a compelling reason why many of us feel strongly about the need for /con or some similar mechanic. Every good RPG has a strong story and any good story teller will tell you that what makes for a great story is the feelings it evokes in its audience. Of the many emotions EQ was able to create in its player base, there are two that few other games have been able to achieve and they are a sense of mystery and a feeling of fear. Along with being very hard to achieve, these two emotions are especially important because they heighten every other emotion, making them stronger and more meaningful. In essence they drive a great story and a meaningful RPG. While there is no single mechanic that EQ had that helped to achieve this, it was a blend of several that helped to create this sense of mystery and fear, the /con system is a major part. With mob levels listed right on the name plate the sense of mystery and fear are removed from the world. At a glance a player can tell what they will be facing, where the danger lies, and how easily to avoid it. It surprises me that VR is even considering having numbers on the nameplates since they have been pushing this idea of putting the E back into PVE. They have worked hard to come up with some fantastic systems like atmospheres and climates to make the environment more meaningful. And yet they seem to be overlooking the fact that a major part of the environment is the NPC’s that inhabit it. Why work so hard to have players engage with the environment and then remove a very meaningful way to make players engage with it via a /con system? This is one area I hope that VR will reexamine its reasoning and even if they don’t use the EQ /con system, that they will come up with some system that forces players to do something to determine a mobs relative strength in comparison to the player and not give a detailed number. It adds a very real level of strategy and engagement with the world that cannot be achieved any other way.
Ah yes, the frantic mouse-clicking/tab-targetting that came with the territory of Norrath. If luck was on your side, the KoS NPC(s) wouldn't aggro thanks to a favorable server tick and you would be able to back out of aggro range in time. Even with the NPCs that you knew all about, if you ruined your faction with them, went MIA from the game for a month or two and forgot about those transgressions, the assumption that all was well brought about some really hairy moments and embarrassing deaths. Keeping track of faction adjustments while on a raid was also important, especially for classes that couldn't easily avoid taking faction hits with feign death. Forget to con while crawling through Temple of Veeshan? RIP. Now everyone in your guild is laughing at you and asking for /consent.
Jobeson said: It wasn't server tic but distance to npc. Run too fast and you skip the warning stare down of a hostile NPC range. As for your guild laughing at silly mistakes would happen on any system. The thing I want from con checks though isn't a KOS warning, there could be a big red name tag for hostile for all I care. I hope a difficulty rating system tied to the world and not the exact meta data UI. The lvl + group/solo + rare spawn etc is all a sterile system. I hope VR makes it a bit vague.
Body Aggro
When a player (or NPC) is close to an NPC the target will make several checks on every server tick (6 seconds) to determine if it should aggro. This is called body aggro, in contrast to attacking or provoking the NPC in some way, which is called initial aggro. Because body aggro can be slow, and generally requires a short distance, it is usually unintentional. Initial aggro also caps the offending action's hate to about 300 or so.
Jobeson said:As for your guild laughing at silly mistakes would happen on any system.
Jobeson said:I hope a difficulty rating system tied to the world and not the exact meta data UI. The lvl + group/solo + rare spawn etc is all a sterile system. I hope VR makes it a bit vague.
Another aspect of the enchanter class that I've thought about in relation to this topic has to do with illusions. If there are enchanter NPCs that cast illusions on themselves to appear as other mob types, mobs that have significantly higher or lower level ranges, than how would a transparent con system not interfere with the purpose of these illusions? The higher level illusions would serve the NPCs by scaring away would-be attackers and the lower level illusions would draw potential victims closer, within range of their other spells. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to allow NPC enchanters to have free reign with displayed levels. Without that, NPC illusions would be purely superficial.
But in not knowing NPC levels, the average group of players could potentially walk right by an ordinary rat and think nothing of it, when it's actually a powerful enchanter in disguise or they could dive into a pond and attack a fish, only to realize suddenly that a god had taken on its form. Even mimics from Dark Souls are a good example of this unpleasant surprise, where the need for taking precautions is evident and memorable. Having to use abilities or spells to see through illusions would be, for lack of a better word, more immersive. The risk would lie in carelessness, with inexperienced players attacking an undesired target. Assuming that any attack against an illusioned target would cause the illusion to dissipate, players would have their ignorance revealed to them suddenly and have to improvise to avoid death.
But aside from all of that, I think the main issue for some, including myself, has to do with knowledge and the power it gives to those who have done nothing to acquire it. Granted, clicking or tab-targetting an NPC and hitting "c" isn't much effort to acquire the knowledge, but it is a sacrifice of (milli)seconds which add up and can contribute to a wipe. If everyone in the group or at the raid knows, at a glance, which adds are the highest in level, than no one has to communicate that information, meaning there will be less reliance on one another. There is an obvious positive that comes with this though, as there's nothing more annoying than to have a train of mobs in camp and not be able to prioritize the greatest threat becaue you're too busy trying to con all of them. So it makes sense to have levels displayed then, but would any of it even be visible in those cases, given all of the clutter? Whenever on raids, I generally had to turn off player character names or minimize them to first names only because it was unreadable.
Leevolen said:
But aside from all of that, I think the main issue for some, including myself, has to do with knowledge and the power it gives to those who have done nothing to acquire it. Granted, clicking or tab-targetting an NPC and hitting "c" isn't much effort to acquire the knowledge, but it is a sacrifice of (milli)seconds which add up and can contribute to a wipe. If everyone in the group or at the raid knows, at a glance, which adds are the highest in level, than no one has to communicate that information, meaning there will be less reliance on one another. There is an obvious positive that comes with this though, as there's nothing more annoying than to have a train of mobs in camp and not be able to prioritize the greatest threat becaue you're too busy trying to con all of them. So it makes sense to have levels displayed then, but would any of it even be visible in those cases, given all of the clutter? Whenever on raids, I generally had to turn off player character names or minimize them to first names only because it was unreadable.
My hope is more that targetting something and hitting "c" would give different information based on what you know. They are doing the whole keeper thing to track info and it could be epic for the game world even when you ignore lore and secrets type of things. Simply tracking what your PC has encountered can be used to influence con checks. The best part is using this method would inspire people to communicate more about the creatures, especially known named creatures. Sure some would still just look everything up online, but that is their own killjoy method of play.
Killing the creatures could give you their generic data for the con, more accurate over time as you kill more of them learning through observation these creatures are weak to fire or resistant to poison etc. Sort of the Monster Hunter method of learning about the creatures. However if you read a lore book or talk to the old hunter about the flamable creatures the flag is triggered in character before you ever fight one.
Does the bandit leader John Smith show his name if you never viewed the bounty board to see his face? Would his head drop for you if you didn't know he is specifically wanted? I would hope not unless you are beheading every bandit you kill. If you further talked to the guard captain to formally take the quest did you ask about his list of crimes which helps show you how strong John Smith is giving you a more accurate con check, possibly even listing what he is known for. Your con check now becomes a reminder about what you have seen and heard.
John Smith not only gets his name but accurately gets bumped to the deadly text of "is far more skilled than you" or whatever VR uses. You also get the line, "He is a master of poisons" letting you know what to plan for.
Jobeson said:Leevolen said:
[...]
My hope is more that targetting something and hitting "c" would give different information based on what you know. They are doing the whole keeper thing to track info and it could be epic for the game world even when you ignore lore and secrets type of things. Simply tracking what your PC has encountered can be used to influence con checks. The best part is using this method would inspire people to communicate more about the creatures, especially known named creatures. Sure some would still just look everything up online, but that is their own killjoy method of play.
Killing the creatures could give you their generic data for the con, more accurate over time as you kill more of them learning through observation these creatures are weak to fire or resistant to poison etc. Sort of the Monster Hunter method of learning about the creatures. However if you read a lore book or talk to the old hunter about the flamable creatures the flag is triggered in character before you ever fight one.
Does the bandit leader John Smith show his name if you never viewed the bounty board to see his face? Would his head drop for you if you didn't know he is specifically wanted? I would hope not unless you are beheading every bandit you kill. If you further talked to the guard captain to formally take the quest did you ask about his list of crimes which helps show you how strong John Smith is giving you a more accurate con check, possibly even listing what he is known for. Your con check now becomes a reminder about what you have seen and heard.
John Smith not only gets his name but accurately gets bumped to the deadly text of "is far more skilled than you" or whatever VR uses. You also get the line, "He is a master of poisons" letting you know what to plan for.
IIRC they gave an example of this regarding perception system in one of the streams, where the group was looking around in a house and one person got some information, like awareness of magical wards, another looked at a picture and got some general background of what whet on there like it was a winery or something and another looked at the same picture and got the name of the former inhabitants only, or was it a gravestone, I dont recall exactly.
What I think you are saying is: is it possible to use the perception mechanic as indicated above, but not as complex or on a smaller scale towards targets. If so, I would like to see it modeled after the DnD 5th edition Monk ability - Extract aspects where on a strike, the class (doesnt have to be a monk, thats just what it is in DnD) the class finds out what the monster is weak to, and has high resists to. who can then commuicate that to the group.
Theory crafting on the living codex, maybe pearls can be used to boost this up to 3x with each boost giving more information, like: step 2, disposition and step 3 weapon skill or spell arsenal? Then to make it dynamic, have other classses have the extract aspects ability, so there is no single class reliance, but the pearl boosts give a chance at different information like high-med-low intelligence, for animals or racials: high-med-low instincts; wild/civilized/pack/social; class(<-3rd level pearl, hard to get, one player class only);your faction relative to theirs (STOP! there's a chance, I didn't know they had faction, although they hate me by -200 I have +2 somehow and charlie has +50?!) . I think class might be too powerfull, once you know the class you can extrapolate everything else they will do.
I wish I had more money, I guess ill take a chance at the lottery :)
Jobeson said:Leevolen said:
But aside from all of that, I think the main issue for some, including myself, has to do with knowledge and the power it gives to those who have done nothing to acquire it. Granted, clicking or tab-targetting an NPC and hitting "c" isn't much effort to acquire the knowledge, but it is a sacrifice of (milli)seconds which add up and can contribute to a wipe. If everyone in the group or at the raid knows, at a glance, which adds are the highest in level, than no one has to communicate that information, meaning there will be less reliance on one another. There is an obvious positive that comes with this though, as there's nothing more annoying than to have a train of mobs in camp and not be able to prioritize the greatest threat becaue you're too busy trying to con all of them. So it makes sense to have levels displayed then, but would any of it even be visible in those cases, given all of the clutter? Whenever on raids, I generally had to turn off player character names or minimize them to first names only because it was unreadable.
My hope is more that targetting something and hitting "c" would give different information based on what you know. They are doing the whole keeper thing to track info and it could be epic for the game world even when you ignore lore and secrets type of things. Simply tracking what your PC has encountered can be used to influence con checks. The best part is using this method would inspire people to communicate more about the creatures, especially known named creatures. Sure some would still just look everything up online, but that is their own killjoy method of play.
Killing the creatures could give you their generic data for the con, more accurate over time as you kill more of them learning through observation these creatures are weak to fire or resistant to poison etc. Sort of the Monster Hunter method of learning about the creatures. However if you read a lore book or talk to the old hunter about the flamable creatures the flag is triggered in character before you ever fight one.
Does the bandit leader John Smith show his name if you never viewed the bounty board to see his face? Would his head drop for you if you didn't know he is specifically wanted? I would hope not unless you are beheading every bandit you kill. If you further talked to the guard captain to formally take the quest did you ask about his list of crimes which helps show you how strong John Smith is giving you a more accurate con check, possibly even listing what he is known for. Your con check now becomes a reminder about what you have seen and heard.
John Smith not only gets his name but accurately gets bumped to the deadly text of "is far more skilled than you" or whatever VR uses. You also get the line, "He is a master of poisons" letting you know what to plan for.
I think it would be amazing if the perception system was tied into the /con system.
In the most recent DRT, Joppa explained why VR has chosen to keep mob levels revealed on the nameplate for mobs within 5 levels of the player. He said it was an accessibility issue and VR was afraid of alienating new players grown used to having such information available. I find this answer to be extremely troubling and a very slippery slope. Players have also grown used to quest markers over NPC’s heads, glittering trails that lead you to your destinations, even pushing a single button and having the game play for you. I would argue that all of the above mechanics, including numbers on the nameplates, run counter to the Pantheon tenets and to the game VR is ultimately hoping to create. Yes, players may be unfamiliar with the a /con system but a simple tutorial, which I believe VR already is planning on implementing in some way, could easily incorporate this information. It certainly is no more challenging or different than the perception system VR is working hard to implement. If VR truly feels that a basic tutorial is not enough, like other systems that add more depth and challenge to the game, /con could be eased into the game play. Possibly the first 5-10 level mobs show their level but after that the numbers go away.
There are two other arguments I’ve heard against the /con system that may tie into this:
In regards to the first argument against /con, this same argument could be used against anything one does in the game. The game is played by pushing buttons. Why would /con be more onerous than all that running around and changing directions one does while playing? Or attacking, casting spells, interacting with NPC’s? Crafting? Participating in perception system?
In regards to the second argument, yes having to /con can slow down game play. But isn’t this exactly what VR is hoping to achieve, a slightly slower paced, more tactical game? And choices should matter, a player could choose to move quickly without conning and take the extra risk that entails. Those that want to race to endgame hope to see /con gone so they can speed through content safely. To those players I say, you will still get there first even if you have to /con along the way.
/Con is such a simple system and yet offers so much in rich gameplay. It would be truly a shame if VR sticks with their current decision. Especially in light of the perception system which VR is pioneering in hopes of getting players to pay more attention to the world. /Con provides a very similar function. It would be amazing if /con could be tied into the perception system in some way, possibly a third branch of discovery. But even if /con and perception remain separate mechanics, please don’t remove the need for some sort of /con.
Levels on mobs don't bother me at all.
Thorndeep said:There is a compelling reason why many of us feel strongly about the need for /con or some similar mechanic.
To me, things like having to type in /con or whatever actually do the opposite of what you think. I'd rather my interpretation of the world come organically, instead of having to stop and type artificial codes and then read an output. That being able to tell "at a glance" is more immersive. And I don't think having numbers (which are functionally identical to color coding anyway) on nameplates removes strategy and engagement in any way. If you're going to complain about level numbers, you may as well complain about nameplates entirely, or health bars/percentages, or faction, or disposition, or whatever else.
Anyway, just wanted to add my 2 cents as a roleplayer with the opposite perspective. Never have levels on enemy nameplates ever negatively impacted my experience of a game world or its story.
Naunet said:Levels on mobs don't bother me at all.
Thorndeep said:There is a compelling reason why many of us feel strongly about the need for /con or some similar mechanic.
To me, things like having to type in /con or whatever actually do the opposite of what you think. I'd rather my interpretation of the world come organically, instead of having to stop and type artificial codes and then read an output. That being able to tell "at a glance" is more immersive. And I don't think having numbers (which are functionally identical to color coding anyway) on nameplates removes strategy and engagement in any way. If you're going to complain about level numbers, you may as well complain about nameplates entirely, or health bars/percentages, or faction, or disposition, or whatever else.
Anyway, just wanted to add my 2 cents as a roleplayer with the opposite perspective. Never have levels on enemy nameplates ever negatively impacted my experience of a game world or its story.
Not really sure how you are ok with numbers if you'd rather your interpretation of the world came "organically"? There isn't much less organic than actually knowing the under-the-hood coded level of the monster, is there?
Also not sure how being able to work out - or rather just somehow 'know' - the relative strength of a creature "at a glance" is more immersive than having to /consider them. To "consider" them is literally what you would/should do, were the situation 'real', so how can *that* not be the more immersive option?
It's the difference between rounding a corner at a run, seeing "an orc" just ahead, and knowing straight away you are safe or not, or, in the same situation, needing to be cautious, stop and take a moment to 'consider' the orc. It may turn out, on 'consideration', the orc is more powerfully built and a foot taller than the ones you were killing easily yesterday. Good thing you took a moment to 'consider' your approach, and didn't rely on a quick glance, because you now 'consider' you will need a friend or two to live through the encounter.
Everything in the game is an analog of the 'reality', clicked button, read number, or whatever. /consider is a good analog for needing to take a moment in order to properly judge an encounter instead of just somehow knowing at a glance it's near-exact power, without really thinking what is safe and what isn't.
/con is more immersive for at least two reasons: -
1) To have to pause and take a moment to actively consider each monster is more realistic in result and pace than just 'knowing' several monsters at a glance.
2) To not have a number means the information gained from considering a monster can be more realistic and less 'gamified' and could be linked to perception or multiple other considerations.
Also maybe consider (there's that word again) that /con doesn't mean you *can't* judge at a glance. You *might* note, at a glance, that the orc is more muscled and taller than the ones you were killing earlier and pull up short. That would *definitely* be more organic and realistic, but if VR do want to give players some way of determining relative power of monsters beyond experience and the limitations of the graphics, then I think it's clear what is the more immersive and organic approach. Beyond that, the /con function adds gameplay depth, since you could shoose to go with your organic glance and attack or stop and use the consider. It is a risk (less caution) vs reward (less time taken) choice. Having a number (or a colour) there on the nameplate just takes away so much depth.