Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Con system and known level

    • 236 posts
    April 8, 2021 8:58 AM PDT
    So I was thinking about this earlier I have a few times. In a few the latest streams you see the level the mob next to the Hp bar personally for me I don't care for this. I feel that having that kind of reduces the risk adventuring. I remember EQ you con a mob and you really didn't know the level but you had an idea but there was risk because you didn't know for sure. Like you had light blue dark blue and then even con. Then you got into yellow which could be a 2 to 3 level difference above you You had red which could have been three or more levels higher than you and then there was a dark red at one point in time you could hardly tell those higher than that I love this because when you looked at a mob and it was red you had to question whether or not you're even an attempt to. And depending upon the group and how it was doing even yellows could make you nervous because you didn't know the actual level of the mob It wasn't like oh it's just one level above or whatever I really hope it goes back to the style where you don't know what you're dealing with exactly You have a hint but that's it. What's your guys' thoughts on this?
    • 411 posts
    April 8, 2021 1:15 PM PDT
    This only works if we're actually fighting similar level mobs. In many games, power inflation (amongst other factors) leads to most fights being against the highest threat color. If anything similar will happen in Pantheon, then we need the level to display since the con color is useless.

    I hope that the relative challenge is balanced properly to the color-coding, and I further hope that the colors used aren't a few specific colors but rather a true color gradient.
    • 195 posts
    April 8, 2021 1:28 PM PDT

    There was a thread for this a while ago here after it was first noticed on a stream.

    Level indicator in NPC nameplates - Pantheon Forums (pantheonmmo.com)

    I'm in the same boat that I'd rather have a danger indicator even if its shown in the UI rather then the actual number.

    • 390 posts
    April 9, 2021 12:30 AM PDT

    Gintoki88 said:

    There was a thread for this a while ago here after it was first noticed on a stream.

    Level indicator in NPC nameplates - Pantheon Forums (pantheonmmo.com)

    I'm in the same boat that I'd rather have a danger indicator even if its shown in the UI rather then the actual number.

    Agreed 100%

    • 209 posts
    April 9, 2021 6:18 PM PDT

    I don't like the actual number of the mob's level shown, either. To use a Brad quote, it feels less like "world" and more like "game". 


    This post was edited by AgentGenX at April 9, 2021 6:18 PM PDT
    • 3016 posts
    April 10, 2021 7:02 AM PDT

    But in the real *world* we generally know what is dangerous and what isn't - particularly if we spend our lives mostly outdoors in undeveloped areas or as mercenaries or other fighters. Experienced people can look at a potential enemy (person or animal) and often get a fair idea what level of threat it represents. Size is far from the only factor - some small things are deadly and some large things are not.

    Showing the level of what we look at is an approximation of this real world situation. Yes it goes a bit further since it is more exact but giving *no* idea is less realistic than giving a number, or a number range (the traditional blue, greem white etc. for example).

    • 188 posts
    April 10, 2021 8:45 AM PDT

    There is functionally no difference between a color-coded con system and level indicators. They serve the same purpose as a gauge of relative power between the player and the mob.

    We don't know exaclty how power scaling works in Pantheon, but it's probably a safe bet that a mob at or near your player level will not be a pushover. If I'm level 32 and I see a mob that is in a range of 31-33, I will more than likely know that I will need to either find a group to kill it, or find a way around it. It's no different than if I saw that mob and it had a yellow nameplate, or if I had to hit a macro to see some yellow text.


    This post was edited by eunichron at April 10, 2021 8:49 AM PDT
    • 236 posts
    April 10, 2021 10:00 AM PDT
    Actually I think it would be different because known level aka you know it's level 15 can be way different than a level range so if let's say yellow was two to four levels higher that'd be a lot scarier in a major difference in whether or not you'd even want to pull that mob. Your group might be able to handle the lower scale but the higher scale of that indicator may just stomp you. Making you have to really communicate with your team and be ready for something like that. Same goes if you have a range so something that's considered even con could be one level below you one level above you or exactly your level having a color-coded range scale changes because you have an idea of the strength but not an exact making higher risk throughout the game and even in life you may look at something and have an idea but you don't have a for sure thought on it
    • 195 posts
    April 10, 2021 3:31 PM PDT

    Syrif said:

    Gintoki88 said:

    Its one thing to walk into a zone and see the first group of mobs show level 40 and be like "welp guess I wont be back here for a while"

    Vs seeing them all con red and going "I'll be back in a few levels to see how they con later"


    Exactly! There is more to test, explore, and learn with the color system than with stamped numbers that are just given. There are more possibilities and things to try out because the color range keeps an element of the unknown. It’s one thing to see a mob with the #31 or #43 on them, but it’s clearly another to perceive a range of the potential strength of the mobs in the zones and regions of Terminus with the color system. 

    In Pantheon, you venture and learn along the way. You also collaborate with your peers about what is discovered. That is key to exploration. Contrarily in WoW, it’s just given to you. “Look at that wolf! He has a #5 on him! No wait, look at this creature in this cave over here! What could it be.. it’s Sabertooth.. I mean, it’s a #18!” 

    Taken from the thread I linked previously.

    • 236 posts
    April 10, 2021 3:46 PM PDT
    Thank you That is exactly what I love about a well set up con system is if it's done right and each color has a range and not really narrowed down then it keeps the element of surprise and keeps that anxiety and thrill of challenge to those mobs
    • 1163 posts
    April 11, 2021 9:57 AM PDT

    They talked about this today on Pantheon Plus. Apparently Joppa said on Discord that the level indicator will be a ? for enemies more than 5 levels higher. I gues this is sort of like a replacement for a con system as long as there is a cap.

    • 236 posts
    April 11, 2021 12:40 PM PDT
    Yes I seen that but doesn't mean that we can't voice her opinion maybe this is something that the community gets changed from having the number to going back to a con-style system do the fact that it kind of takes away when there's just a number sitting there it's kind of like a question mark above a quest person's head
    • 195 posts
    April 12, 2021 12:16 PM PDT

    Just got around to watching PPlus today, I can live with that, the number still makes it feel a little less like a natural world for "muh imersion" but it works.

    • 201 posts
    April 12, 2021 12:37 PM PDT

    Just copy the eq system, colors and ranges and text and all for me.

    • 41 posts
    April 12, 2021 12:42 PM PDT

    I'm honestly fine with numbers being displayed especially if it's only within a specific range of the character. Knowing the number doesn't automatically equate to knowing if i'll be able to kill the creature in my mind. I also don't think it would break my immersion anymore than the con system, names over the npc, or any other information being delivered to the player in this kind of way.

    • 203 posts
    April 22, 2021 7:50 AM PDT

    I also don't like the number being next to the name and I'd prefer if it just came up in the chat box when using /con.

    Perhaps a toggleable UI option? 

    • 90 posts
    April 22, 2021 10:54 AM PDT

    EQOA (and similarly, EQ I believe) just used a color system (which has been referenced above). I would prefer something like this as well. I would not like to see the level of the NPC and would rather leave it to my imagination to decide whether or not I should attack ("okay, yeah he's conned red, but is he only 3 levels higher than me or is he 10 levels higher than me..? Guess I'll whack him with my sword and find out!") I realize that in EQ (and potentially Pantheon as well) that the con system also gave a bit more information in the form of an RP response in the text chat that helped you figure out how difficult an NPC/enemy was, and although I'm not use to this, this would not bother me since it is not immersion breaking (in my opinion). 

    • 1787 posts
    April 22, 2021 5:24 PM PDT

    The color con system is not akin to showing levels, because color cons allow for sneaky under/over cons that can influence game play to spurising ends.

    One example I remember is the Tae Ew in Temple of Cazic thule. DB cons they said, really cool dungeon they said. You get in there and the fight is like cuttting steak with a butter knife. Fire resists iirc and ice resists, most resists really and if maloed things hit, but not as hard, probably due to their thick lizard skin. and the AC, must have had outreageous AC as even the warrriors were getting nervous. A well oiled team would wipe on two, with the first one already half dead. Even in panic mode you could not get the first one dead fast enough.

    It's things like that, that I think are fair play froma  dev standpoint. Even or higher cons cautiously approached and conquered can be a kind of psychological war-fare(game-fare?) to give a false sense of secuirity, just like DB cons being perceived as doable from the temptations of riches deeper in yet humbled because they are clearly under-cons. 

    Im not saying everywhere, but enough to keep players on their toes: all that glitters is not gold, and; all looks golden to the jaundiced eye.

    • 236 posts
    April 22, 2021 7:17 PM PDT
    Yes I really hope that the devs are listening to this I think almost all of us want to have the comm system in a colour coded format and not a number oriented because it gives so much more character to the game with what they can do and ranges
    • 2334 posts
    April 22, 2021 11:32 PM PDT

    I know the arguments, but no numbers, please.

    Restrict the numbers in other places too, please (combat log).

    Less game.

    More world.

    • 723 posts
    April 23, 2021 5:16 AM PDT

    Hey guys, there's an orc up here, looks like he's a lvl 32, melee, with an armor buff, hp buff and damage shield, his proficiency is with a 2 hander, but he's carrying a mace and shield. He's married, 2 kids, 2bdrm 1 bath stone hut with a pond. Works for the city guard, has a pension plan and early retirement options. 

    Should I pull him?


    This post was edited by Fulton at April 23, 2021 5:17 AM PDT
    • 236 posts
    April 23, 2021 11:22 AM PDT
    Yes that's just what I don't want even in old school dnd u might see a guy but other thin if his weapon is so powerful it has a light glow to it or his armor just has something unique all u knew was this guy was the leader so he wont be easy to kill. It why I like the con system with the color it give u a slight idea of x power but not much more.
    • 390 posts
    April 24, 2021 3:26 PM PDT

    There is a compelling reason why many of us feel strongly about the need for /con or some similar mechanic. Every good RPG has a strong story and any good story teller will tell you that what makes for a great story is the feelings it evokes in its audience. Of the many emotions EQ was able to create in its player base, there are two that few other games have been able to achieve and they are a sense of mystery and a feeling of fear. Along with being very hard to achieve, these two emotions are especially important because they heighten every other emotion, making them stronger and more meaningful. In essence they drive a great story and a meaningful RPG. While there is no single mechanic that EQ had that helped to achieve this, it was a blend of several that helped to create this sense of mystery and fear, the /con system is a major part. With mob levels listed right on the name plate the sense of mystery and fear are removed from the world. At a glance a player can tell what they will be facing, where the danger lies, and how easily to avoid it. It surprises me that VR is even considering having numbers on the nameplates since they have been pushing this idea of putting the E back into PVE. They have worked hard to come up with some fantastic systems like atmospheres and climates to make the environment more meaningful. And yet they seem to be overlooking the fact that a major part of the environment is the NPC’s that inhabit it. Why work so hard to have players engage with the environment and then remove a very meaningful way to make players engage with it via a /con system? This is one area I hope that VR will reexamine its reasoning and even if they don’t use the EQ /con system, that they will come up with some system that forces players to do something to determine a mobs relative strength in comparison to the player and not give a detailed number. It adds a very real level of strategy and engagement with the world that cannot be achieved any other way.

    • 236 posts
    April 24, 2021 3:58 PM PDT
    Yes I do hope we are reevaluates this I was actually looking at some old videos and I heard you heard Brad make the comment that he was really liking their cons system and talked about it a little bit so I think that was part of Brad's vision is to have a colored con system like EQ had over the level on the nameplate.
    • 364 posts
    April 27, 2021 10:10 PM PDT
    I am not a fan of seeing levels in the con or having levels be a standard impact. There should be deadly fights five levels below you. I hope con is separate and not just a solo/group level indicator. Con could be tied to the lore you have seen or listened to, race, class, creatures you have fought, how drunk your PC is. There are so many cool ideas for a con system to indicate the danger level in an RP friendly way.

    Games where 1 lvl is x% chance to dodge and x% chance to hit across the board is silly. A strong but innacurate deadly giant may one shot you for attacking it but I don't get why it should have 100% hit chance. A turtle could be super defensive and super hard to hit even though it is weak overall. Level based generic defense/offense ruin the verisimilitude.