Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Meaningful Factions Please!

    • 131 posts
    April 7, 2021 1:15 PM PDT

    One thing I hated about some of the factions in EQ was they had no purpose.  I don't know of any useful reason to have a positive faction with orcs, gnolls, Mayong Mistmoore, etc.  There was no benefit to befriending a lot of the factions in the game.  If killing them just helps raise faction with another group, just give a positive faction hit to them instead of also having a negative faction hit to Deathfist Orcs.  Was such a waste of narrative gameplay and content possibilities.

    Please, please, please give us some carrots on the end of a string to make me think about betraying my culture and side with an NPC race like Wos Che or North Tusk or the Amberfaet or an organization like Black Rose.  Why can't these places have some vendors, crafting stations, quests that lead to cool loot all at the price of losing faction with your home city.

    One step further, if I may be so bold... If this were possible, it would be so fantastic to be able to buff or heal NPCs of my faction.  I know, I know, trolling players blah blah, but just think how great that would be to be doing stuff in Black Rose after raising faction and a group comes by trying to kill your brothers, so you buff them or try to heal them as they're fighting.  Just sounds so romantic.

    • 333 posts
    April 7, 2021 1:46 PM PDT

    benonal said:

    One step further, if I may be so bold... If this were possible, it would be so fantastic to be able to buff or heal NPCs of my faction.  I know, I know, trolling players blah blah, but just think how great that would be to be doing stuff in Black Rose after raising faction and a group comes by trying to kill your brothers, so you buff them or try to heal them as they're fighting.  Just sounds so romantic.

    I would hope they limit any interactions to before NPCs are engaged unless you are on a pvp server.  I used to summon gear for the guards that protected the starting area for noobies as many evil factions would farm them leaving the noobies unprotected.  Don't leave the noobs unprotected you monsters!

     

    Would be amazing to see a few PCs torching their faction with major cities just to become beloved by the goblin pirates so they could get the recipies for building a boat in their style, but I imagine there are factions players cannot reliably build making the loss more of a network of alliances

    • 2143 posts
    April 7, 2021 2:21 PM PDT

    There were a lot of discussions back in 2014 with Brad and the original design team about this exact issue and Brad's view was that not every faction should adjustable because the innate dislike/hatred is just too embedded into that group. There were quite a good number of arugments that disputed his position, that through interwoven factions players can really have vastly different experiences throughout their time in the game.  The key takeaway was that changing those factions should be a long process, requiring ever increasingly difficult actions. 

    One example I brought up was a Skar who wanted to be welcomed in Thronefast.  There would need to be some initial intermediary willing to talk to me and set me on that path, giving me specific tasks, quests or directions which, upon completing, would both raise my Thronefast faction and lowering all my Skar related factions.  The factions going up would move at a far slower rate than those going down, putting you in a position quite quickly of being KOS to both.  As your standing goes up, the actions you take get more difficult. Killing some minor Skar related faction no longer works. You have to direct your actions against the Skar city, it's inhabitants, guards, named NPCs inside and eventually killing some specific NPC like a King or Lord to break out of the KOS brackets.  Only then can you switch to Thronefast and work on building your faction to ally from their sources.

    I still agree that some factions to which you start off KOS should always remain that way.  Mindless undead, for example. Or a faction that is tied to specific arcs in the character's progression, etc.  In EQ1 I had a Troll Shaman that could walk through Felwithe openly, except for the one of the class trainers.  I was KOS in Grob because I XP'd off the troll guards, mostly because nobody else camped them and they dropped good amounts of platinum and fine steel weapons. :)


    This post was edited by Vandraad at April 8, 2021 7:35 AM PDT
    • 131 posts
    April 7, 2021 3:08 PM PDT
    I agree with ya Van. My take is if u shouldn't be able to change it, it doesn't need a faction hit. Ur kos
    • 15 posts
    April 7, 2021 4:16 PM PDT
    I’ve always thought it would be neat if faction hits could accumulate to a point beyond kos. Once you attain a certain level of infamy a bounty is placed and factions send out a hunter to kill you. The hunters use information gathered by your interactions with npc; thus, making some npc interaction a matter that takes consideration. You might see a faction bounty hunter in various towns looking for information on a bounty. With all of the people who would end up being hunted it wouldn’t be a constant nuisance but could provide for some random encounters and make things interesting.
    • 47 posts
    April 7, 2021 5:46 PM PDT

    It would be cool for more varied interactions based on faction and to remove the pointless faction hits, but as far as healing/buffing friendly NPCs that are being killed by PCs, it would almost be griefing if a high level character put insane buffs on lower level NPCs and healing them with no repercussions. For it to be "fair" you'd have to have a way for PCs to retaliate, or at the very least minimize/cap the benefits NPCs could gain from heals/buffs

    • 333 posts
    April 7, 2021 10:59 PM PDT

    Benonai said: I agree with ya Van. My take is if u shouldn't be able to change it, it doesn't need a faction hit. Ur kos

    But if you get negative enough you may gain notoriety deserving of special hit squads to take you out :D

     

    As for the buffing and griefing, if they nerf them down to balancable levels for players I imagine it would be the same for NPCs.  Buffing the NPC would be strong, but not 20x more hp and the AC to match strong like we had in EQ. 


    This post was edited by Jobeson at April 7, 2021 11:05 PM PDT
    • 2305 posts
    April 8, 2021 1:11 AM PDT

    Isn't this a bit like having 'trash' loot?  If there isn't trash loot, then every bit of loot is somehow significant and you somehow 'know' that.  It's a bit weird.

    Of course, if there is the concept of factions, when you kill a creature, its faction will be effected.  Do we want that faction to always be somehow 'significant'?

    It's already weird that we somehow learn the associated faction of a creature just by killing it - would it be more or less weird to know, by killing something, that its faction has no significance in the game?  To know that there are no implications by killing *this* creature, but *that* one you should by wary of the implications of killing?

    *shrug* I guess the whole concept is weird, but personally, I'm fine with 'unimportant' factions and having to work out what the implications of killing stuff is - how important their factions are.

    I'm all for having lots of important and impactful factions, of course, the same as I'm all for having lots of important and impactful items, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be more 'normal' stuff too?

    If kinda relates to the concept that if everything is 'special' then nothing really is?

    I'm just thinking out loud, sorry if it sounds nitpicky - it's no huge deal either way, I suppose, it just feels a bit odd to me.


    This post was edited by disposalist at April 8, 2021 1:12 AM PDT
    • 333 posts
    April 8, 2021 1:27 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Isn't this a bit like having 'trash' loot?  If there isn't trash loot, then every bit of loot is somehow significant and you somehow 'know' that.  It's a bit weird.

    Trash loot is not a requirement for an MMO.  In fact the best MMO economy doesn't have trash loot.  Eve online doesn't have trash loot because it doesn't have NPC vendors buying common items (faction vendors want faction specific drops) The only people buying and selling loot in the economy are players.  The less desirable items were all recycled for resources, every single item could be turned into resources or resold. 

    • 2305 posts
    April 8, 2021 1:53 AM PDT

    Jobeson said:

    disposalist said:

    Isn't this a bit like having 'trash' loot?  If there isn't trash loot, then every bit of loot is somehow significant and you somehow 'know' that.  It's a bit weird.

    Trash loot is not a requirement for an MMO.  In fact the best MMO economy doesn't have trash loot.  Eve online doesn't have trash loot because it doesn't have NPC vendors buying common items (faction vendors want faction specific drops) The only people buying and selling loot in the economy are players.  The less desirable items were all recycled for resources, every single item could be turned into resources or resold. 

    Yes, I understand the "everything must be important" concept, I just think it feels weird in some ways.  It may well be 'better' in some ways.


    This post was edited by disposalist at April 8, 2021 1:54 AM PDT
    • 1765 posts
    April 8, 2021 7:20 AM PDT

    My immediate reaction to the OP was two fold: remembering the nightingale armor earned from the assasins faction questing in skyrim and how cool that was. Everyone Most people I have interacted with like the nightingale armor. Then what if the Black Rose Keep armor was so bad-ass looking that some might be inclined to take on the almost insurmountable faction/quests missions just to be able to craft Black Rose keep armor (which is non-tradeable.)

    ho-HO this may also be an in-game solution against a cosmetic cash shop for the purists? ya want cosmetics? sure, but you gotta socially play for 'em (craft/adventure, whatever)

    Besides, I feel Black Rose keep already has a draw towards it, something about relishing your pain, or core determination wrought from bitterness kinda thing. "the black rose only blossoms  in its tiny ice-n tomb during the harshest winter when the wind cuts your cheeks as your the tears cut your heart when..."you get the idea. Maybe that could be the slightly counterintuitive key to unlocking the agnostic blackrose faction? "We are suspicious of everyone, but, we recognize your turmoil resulting from your doing that class/race specific cathartic questline so...we know you have glimpsed the beauty of the black rose but you can't handle all of it" or something. 

    I don't think all faction should lead to hidden questlines, but I do like the idea of opening up faction to be able to function on a basic level in city hubs or even the discovered convenience of gypsy/bandit/racial monster camps and access to unique merchant wares they have. Kajit has wares if you have coin!

    • 2996 posts
    April 8, 2021 7:53 AM PDT

    At the risk of oversimplifying I see two types of factions. 

    One is relatively small and, from the standpoint of the world as a whole, unimportant. If I cannot get good faction in the town of Butt Cheek I cannot use its merchants and learn a few unique recipes. I like having little options like this and it is quite appropriate that they are purely optional and of no great importance.

    The other is overarching and quite important. It may affect how I am received in a large portion of the available world, with possibilities ranging from discounts at the merchants or availability of unique items to being shunned or kill-on-sight. In D&D and AD&D it was good and evil, chaos and law. In DAOC it was three geographic factions based on the race you chose at character creation. In WoW it was also based on race, with two major factions. In Pantheon it is likely to be less overarching. It may be faction with a particular race - more important than one small town but far less important than a third or a half of the planet. 

    Whatever it is I would like it to be hard to change and meaningful. Actions should have consequences. Fight against the dwarves and they should never trust you even if you do slaughter 10 million orcs. Though maybe they should tolerate you if you wade into town through orc blood up to your ((cough)) ((blush)) well never mind.

    • 400 posts
    April 8, 2021 12:25 PM PDT
    There needs to be a fair amount of faction variability within each group so that the world feels real. A Human Paladin NPC should be way harder to build faction with than a Human rogue. And for unnamed NPCs without an obvious adjustment, there should be a random modifier applied so that you can slowly see the change. An Orc who kills his 100th Org NPC shouldn't see every human suddenly become friendly all at once.
    • 696 posts
    April 9, 2021 1:53 PM PDT

    Benonai said:

    One thing I hated about some of the factions in EQ was they had no purpose.  I don't know of any useful reason to have a positive faction with orcs, gnolls, Mayong Mistmoore, etc.  There was no benefit to befriending a lot of the factions in the game.  If killing them just helps raise faction with another group, just give a positive faction hit to them instead of also having a negative faction hit to Deathfist Orcs.  Was such a waste of narrative gameplay and content possibilities.

    Please, please, please give us some carrots on the end of a string to make me think about betraying my culture and side with an NPC race like Wos Che or North Tusk or the Amberfaet or an organization like Black Rose.  Why can't these places have some vendors, crafting stations, quests that lead to cool loot all at the price of losing faction with your home city.

    One step further, if I may be so bold... If this were possible, it would be so fantastic to be able to buff or heal NPCs of my faction.  I know, I know, trolling players blah blah, but just think how great that would be to be doing stuff in Black Rose after raising faction and a group comes by trying to kill your brothers, so you buff them or try to heal them as they're fighting.  Just sounds so romantic.

    I don't mind if the faction hit makes that faction more hostile to you. Things like going from neutral to KOS. Maybe even bigger leashes/aggro distances/social aggro distances/more ferocious or cowardly fighting.  I do think positive faction should always lead to at least a basic supplies merchant, though. . Those orcs, gnolls, Mayong Mistmoores, etc gotta eat.

    I could see a special ruleset pvp server being very fun with you being able to fight with your small faction.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at April 9, 2021 1:55 PM PDT
    • 696 posts
    April 9, 2021 1:54 PM PDT

    oops


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at April 9, 2021 1:54 PM PDT