Will custom UI/overlays be aloud like in EQ or will they be prohibited? For example, but not limited to parse screens, hotbars, maps, etc. If they are aloud what will the restrictions be? If they are not aloud will people be able to use third party programs in the background to collect data, such as a parsing program? Or will there be some kind of built in parser and/or different UI choices?
They have suggested that they want to allow UI modifications (moving, resizing, reskinning and the line). But that they will not allow addons that provide gameplay advantages (maps, dps meters, timers, etc.). I support both fully.
A long time ago they did discuss out of game parsers. They acknowledged that there's nothing they can really do to prevent you parsing the logs that the game will create of the data provided in the chat windows. And they didn't really seem to have any ambition to figure out how to. But they weren't open allowing an addon that would do it within the game UI. And they discussed how to strategically determine what data would and would not be provided in the chat logs so that the game couldn't be compormised by parsing.
Is there a specific reason they are more/less against parsing? Imo it is a valuable tool for those who want to get the most out of their character and helps raid leaders determine who to place in what groups and help pick x player over y player for the main raid party.
For example, when I played EQ2 my dps was always ranked 2-3 out of the whole raid party, which was pretty impressive for a warlock. We were the only raid guild on our server without a main wizard and ranked 2 on server raid wise. I was our only main dps caster dps(but not the only caster) the rest were melee dps. Our backup was a wizard if I couldn't make it or they needed a filler. Typically raid guilds were not too fond of warlocks based on the assumption that their overall dps was weak on single targets and they didn't provide any real benifit to a raid party, besides causing wipes lol. To be fair though, all my gear was full top tier raid gear.
Because of situations like this, I think parsers are a needed tool and if someone is underperfoming on a raid they either need to adjust their hotbar lineup or risk being replaced/only used for a backup on raids. Obviously I'm only talking about for the hardcore guilds. If my rotations were causing a huge difference between me and someone of equal gear I'd want to fix it too
Exarch said:Is there a specific reason they are more/less against parsing? Imo it is a valuable tool for those who want to get the most out of their character and helps raid leaders determine who to place in what groups and help pick x player over y player for the main raid party.
For example, when I played EQ2 my dps was always ranked 2-3 out of the whole raid party, which was pretty impressive for a warlock. We were the only raid guild on our server without a main wizard and ranked 2 on server raid wise. I was our only main dps caster dps(but not the only caster) the rest were melee dps. Our backup was a wizard if I couldn't make it or they needed a filler. Typically raid guilds were not too fond of warlocks based on the assumption that their overall dps was weak on single targets and they didn't provide any real benifit to a raid party, besides causing wipes lol. To be fair though, all my gear was full top tier raid gear.
Because of situations like this, I think parsers are a needed tool and if someone is underperfoming on a raid they either need to adjust their hotbar lineup or risk being replaced/only used for a backup on raids. Obviously I'm only talking about for the hardcore guilds. If my rotations were causing a huge difference between me and someone of equal gear I'd want to fix it too
Even if it is a bit naïve, that kind of negative view over a class wouldn't exist without parsing. That's the way to measure people's efficiency with numeric values and classify them class against class that does that kind of reaction, so the best solution to your problem would be not to search for a solution.
Now let's be honest, nowadays parser can't be avoided at all due to talentuous programmers doing RAM reading softwares, but that's for the whole idea.
Counterfleche said: I'm 100% in favor of easily customizable GUI. The only real way to block parsing is to not send the data to the client for what everyone else is doing, but I imagine that would be more difficult than it sounds. It's not as simple as not sending numbers since even a message that Player X hits Mob Y followed by knowing how much HP the mob lost would be enough to extrapolate the damage done. Your client would also need to not be told how much HP Mob Y has (since not being told that Player X hit isn't possible because the client needs to be told to run the damage received animation). But in order to show Mob Y's HP bar, the client will still need some information. About all you could do is give the mobs a random HP range and only send HP% remaining. But this is still enough information to create a fairly accurate damage meter. Since it's all but inevitable, I would like to see an optional built-in parsing tool that only shows you your own stats, and only gives it to you a rough idea of how you compare. Something like telling you that you are in the bottom half, top 50% to 75%, or too quarter for your level and class. This helps regular players get a rough idea where they stand but isn't specific enough to encourage toxic behavior or to make someone feel like a failure. This tool would not compare you, in real-time against your group, but rather serve as a general comparison againt everyone of the same class and level.
SWTOR did this, people ran parsers with an ip connexion allowing them to merge their data, so it it worked in raid but wasn't working on pickup groups as it needed a bit of coordination. Might be good enough however.
Exarch said:Will custom UI/overlays be aloud like in EQ or will they be prohibited? For example, but not limited to parse screens, hotbars, maps, etc. If they are aloud what will the restrictions be? If they are not aloud will people be able to use third party programs in the background to collect data, such as a parsing program? Or will there be some kind of built in parser and/or different UI choices?
This is the recent thread on this topic. You'll get a good sense of where the discussion has been - and where it is at - if you browse thru.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12608/hide-the-numbers-from-the-client
Leaving the discussion about parsing aside for a moment, there is the customisation of UI from a purely visual/aesthetic point of view which is very personal.
In both MMOs where I invested most of my time and energy in - 1 playing for 7-8 years and the other for about 5-6 years - I ended up using custom UI mods that completely overhauled the default UI.
Yes the default UI will be better tied in with the existing game functions and will run better - every fan-made UI will have a rather serious performance hit - but in the end we all have personal preferences.
Me for example, I prefer a minimalistic utilitarian UI, not showing things that I feel are unneccessary such as character portraits or class icons. If the default game UI allows such customisation, great - I'll go for that then. If not, I prefer the ability to use something third party.
Customizing the UI beyond what they allow will be tied to aesthetics. If debuffs on primary target are tied to the target box by default UI then you will be able to separate them. If you want to swap hit bars saying 100/100 instead of 824/824 you can likely do that. As long as it is not pulling in outside data you can likely use it. I look forward to seeing where they draw the line here. For instance displaying long term buffs for people in the group is largely meaningless in my opinion. I don't care to see everyone has ~10 indefinite buffs in the group. I only want to see the short term buffs usually for things like regens or cool down abilities only.
The main reason VR doesnt want third party programs tied to the UI is to make sure parsers are not more or less playing the game for you with massive flags/banners on the screen saying what to do. You dont need to pay attention to debuffs just use your ability when it tells you, don't get a feel for threat just watch the threat meter, or don't look for visual cues placed in game just listen to your UI announcement. All of that sort of stuff is tied to parsers but go beyond knowing DPS each fight. The Devs openly talk about how good it feels to top the DPS or do well in a fight etc. DPS is not the problem parsers present, it is all the other shenanigans the data can bring in real time. They have only blocked third party tools from being in the UI itself.
You will have DPS meters, you will know who is playing horribly or perfectly. The question is will you have that info mid fight or after the fight only. VR is potentially against all live parsing to try to block the combat advantage, but only time will tell what all they end up doing.
ElysianAngel2347 said: every fan-made UI will have a rather serious performance hit
There were a bunch of fan made UIs available for Vanguard. I ran several of them at different times. Never noticed any performance slowdown of any of the ones I used.
I think the skill of the creator is really what determines how well it works.
MauvaisOeil said:Even if it is a bit naïve, that kind of negative view over a class wouldn't exist without parsing. That's the way to measure people's efficiency with numeric values and classify them class against class that does that kind of reaction, so the best solution to your problem would be not to search for a solution.
Now let's be honest, nowadays parser can't be avoided at all due to talentuous programmers doing RAM reading softwares, but that's for the whole idea.
You know sometimes the opposite happens. Some players will FEEL like this class doesn't do enough damage compared to another class but they might be plain wrong and only number can prove them wrong.
I don't think Parser are a bad thing and I actually like to be able to see how I can perform and if I improved with solid proof that when I do X and Y instead of Z and X then it's always better.
Even if the parser only shows you own numbers (Damage/Healing/Aggro) I'd like to be able to see an overall of my character's efficiency.
And I'd like to have the dev have some kind of Damage/Healing/Aggro meter natively
One benefit of parsers is that it keeps the developers honest. Nothing is better than players able to confirm what developers say should be happening. Does that weapon really do the damage it says it does? Is AC being calcualted properly? Are spells casting in the correct amount of time? Parsers will discover all of that.
While parses have benefits they are also often misused. As we all know. The worst players in a raid may have the best damage numbers if they do nothing but round up trash mobs and aoe them down fast. A necessary job but it doesn't mean that the player is good or his or her rotation or gear is good. A wonderfully skilled cc specialist may save the raid from wipes repeatedly yet have terrible numbers in all categories. Though I admit I mostly dislike parses because of where they are accurate. As when I do a crappy job and they highlight this.