I know a lot of people have mixed emotions about multiple specs, but I think in a raiding guild situation, it could solve a lot of issues if you could have 1 spec used only for raid groups.
For example, you make a Warrior to be the main tank in groups, but your guild leader only lets himself be main tank (this happens in every guild I've ever been in it seems), so your raid spec is built towards more support/dps. A big problem in some MMO's is at high levels tanks are rare because there are only a couple of spots for them in raids, but everyone needs a tank for group content. Having a raid spec would free people to roll a tank without worrying so much about finding a perfect spot when they get to the raiding stage.
Also let's say you want to play a style that isn't really intended for your class in solo/group content, like a CC rogue or DPS Shaman, but don't want to be left out of raiding since pure classes can use mastery to outclass you. You could use the raid spec for a more normal build without having to be punished for doimg something you find entertaining.
Finally there is the old problem of Real life making your raid party go down a healer/tank/enchanter whatever on raid night. Some players can have a backup spec to be able to switch roles in a pinch.
I do agree that the choices you make in masteries should matter for the most part, and group content seems to be the main focus of PRotF, but for raiding I think some quality of life sacrifices can be made to accomodate the organizational problems raiding presents, since you have to get 20-40 people together who all have kids/work/health issues/internet problems etc.
I might be wrong here, but I thought that different roles you can bring to a group/raid was handled by the abilities specified on the action bars rather than a full re-spec? This mechanism allows you to adapt to the current requirements, be that a raid or or group and that you would be able to switch between roles as you like (when out of combat). Or have I totally misunderstood the re-spec direction VR have taken?
If it is the way I understand it, then this allows you to be a tank in a group, and change in a raid or whenever you want to do off tanking, dps or whatever?
chenzeme said:I might be wrong here, but I thought that different roles you can bring to a group/raid was handled by the abilities specified on the action bars rather than a full re-spec? This mechanism allows you to adapt to the current requirements, be that a raid or or group and that you would be able to switch between roles as you like (when out of combat). Or have I totally misunderstood the re-spec direction VR have taken?
If it is the way I understand it, then this allows you to be a tank in a group, and change in a raid or whenever you want to do off tanking, dps or whatever?
It is both.
VR is going to have mastery respecs in the game. Meaning you can minmax your build to only spend mastery points in the abilities you will have going for raid tanking. While leveling you may have spread the mastery points around more for various problems you would face as an adventurer. But as a raider you are minmaxed for survival/dps/healing output etc. Level up specced for solo/group then flip it to a minmaxed tank at lvl 50 to focus more on raiding / survival.
I am firmly against it and wish choices actually meant something. I would be grasping at any straws for hope if they existed. I see it as no different than swapping your race at max level.
Have VR really said you will be able to schange your mastery willy-nilly? Or is it more like being able to alter your choices once-per-level or something more restrictive?
I wouldn't want the former, but would want the latter. Nothing worse than getting high level and realising your choices do not match the playstyle you prefer.
Question for those completely against respecs...
The mastery system has a HUGE impact on how and what your character does. The is further complicated by how many abilities play off each other.
If you have NO option to respec your mastery points, how are players supposed to try/test things out, find the build they like, learn how things work? You seem to be suggesting that if you get 30+ levels in, realize you aren't happy with the mastery set-up you have, you are simply *%&$ed and need to reroll your entire character?
Help me understand this.
It makes it far more interesting and exciting to me if the decisions I make are not reversable. If I can change things later, I'll just try whatever and see what happens. You may get 30 levels in and decide you don't like the class you picked which is exactly what happened to me in EQ1 with selecting a Druid. Should I be able to change that as well? No.
I like travelling to be difficult, I don't want a map, I like death to be a huge PIA, I like trains, I like having a hard time getting that upgraded weapon or armor; these things make your in game decisions very meaningful and for me, add greatly to the excitement of the game.
Finn said:Question for those completely against respecs...
The mastery system has a HUGE impact on how and what your character does. The is further complicated by how many abilities play off each other.
If you have NO option to respec your mastery points, how are players supposed to try/test things out, find the build they like, learn how things work? You seem to be suggesting that if you get 30+ levels in, realize you aren't happy with the mastery set-up you have, you are simply *%&$ed and need to reroll your entire character?
Help me understand this.
Honestly, this comes down to making wise choices. As Jobeson mentioned in a comment above you will be able to eventually unlock everything mastery wise and you shouldn't have to re-roll a character based on mastery point allocation since you will eventually be able to unlock that class's full potential given enough playtime. I don't think there needs to be a respec since this is the case and as long as skills feel-good across the board if you "misspend" a point then it shouldn't really matter.
The only kind of respec option that I am for is a stat respect option for people who feel like they may have screwed up at character creation or when placing stat points manually (if this becomes a thing). I believe this form of respec should be implemented some way but it shouldn't be free and there should be some kind of time-delayed between how often you can do this.
VR have said that a character will be able to earn enough mastery points to max every ability they have.
So by end-game the idea of respeccing won't really matter.
It seems to be more of a concern during the mid-game while levelling and you gain some new abilities you instantly want to max at the cost of currently maxed abilities.
Ezrael said:VR have said that a character will be able to earn enough mastery points to max every ability they have.
So by end-game the idea of respeccing won't really matter.
It seems to be more of a concern during the mid-game while levelling and you gain some new abilities you instantly want to max at the cost of currently maxed abilities.
I wasn't aware this had been "confirmed" (as much as anything can be confirmed at this point). I know the devs had mentioned it as a possibility, but I didn't know "infinite" mastery points was a definite thing.
If true, then it does make all these discussions about specs and respeccing (of which I have had several in Discord) a bit moot.
If we can eventually farm "all the masteries", then I am good with that. A "bad choice" earlier on can be rectified, you just need to go grind more mastery points.
Works for me.
Thanks all.
The common approach in MMOs these days is that raiding is the only significant content - at least for serious players. The OP's suggestions may be based on that assumption which is reasonable because it is so very common.
I hope it is also very wrong for Pantheon. VR has said that the game will focus on group play with solo play and raiding both being ancillary.
I hope they stick to this and don't put in special things for raiding just as they have said they won't put in special things for soloing.
Jobeson said: What Ezreal calls midgame I call endgame. When players hit lvl 50 and drastically change their playstyle to minmax to the meta that is the end game. We are going to lose all the flavor of different playstyles for the one that is "best"
I think that some of the saving grace here will be the fact that, as far as I can tell, in Pantheon "best" will always be situational. Depending on the disposition, environment, group composition, specific encounter mechanics, etc. people will need to learn to be flexible with their build. I think this is what will make the excellent players stand out from the decent players. You will have people that will google stuff and just see "use X in Y situation", but you will also have people that understand WHY you need to use X in Y situation, and they will be much more flexible and competent to play with.
@finn Joppa said it affirmatively during a stream. I would (sadly) put it on par with bards being at launch. The same shaman / mastery debut stream they go over how you can eventually unlock everything.
They also mentioned no maxing masteries from purely grinding. Some of the maxed out masteries will have to come from drops and quests.
I know I probably may not align with you on this, but I actually like that. I think the idea that with enough committment a player will be able to "max out" their character is good for continued engagement (and subs). I also am a huge fan of some mastery points being locked behind drops, or quests, or rare spawns, or perception system, or exploration, or any number of things. I think it encourages people to explore more activities in the game.
disposalist said:Have VR really said you will be able to schange your mastery willy-nilly? Or is it more like being able to alter your choices once-per-level or something more restrictive?
I wouldn't want the former, but would want the latter. Nothing worse than getting high level and realising your choices do not match the playstyle you prefer.
They talked about it costing money to respec and there will be a steep curve so that the amount of times you can respec before it becomes cost prohibitive is limited.
Another option is to keep the ratio of classes wanted/needed in groups to remain the same (or similar) in raids. If you need 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 Support, and 2 damage for a group composition then when you create raid encounters for 4 groups then try to keep the ratio equal (3-4 tanks, 3-4 healers, 3-4 Support, 8-11 Damage).
Finn said:I know I probably may not align with you on this, but I actually like that. I think the idea that with enough committment a player will be able to "max out" their character is good for continued engagement (and subs). I also am a huge fan of some mastery points being locked behind drops, or quests, or rare spawns, or perception system, or exploration, or any number of things. I think it encourages people to explore more activities in the game.
Quite the opposite. I really enjoy the idea of progressing the PC with actual options and abilities, it worked great in Eve. I really like the idea of players being unique. It will be very disapointing when half the wizards are the same exact build due to respecs.
edictzero said:I know a lot of people have mixed emotions about multiple specs, but I think in a raiding guild situation, it could solve a lot of issues if you could have 1 spec used only for raid groups.
For example, you make a Warrior to be the main tank in groups, but your guild leader only lets himself be main tank (this happens in every guild I've ever been in it seems)
I've seen this time and time again too and it is disheartening.
For those that use the argument of "you can get every mastery eventually" in opposition of being able to respec, I would ask if you have ever played EQ (1 or 2) and unlocked "all of the Alternate Advancement skills". It is very "possible" but it takes YEARS to do lol.
Jobeson said:Finn said:I know I probably may not align with you on this, but I actually like that. I think the idea that with enough committment a player will be able to "max out" their character is good for continued engagement (and subs). I also am a huge fan of some mastery points being locked behind drops, or quests, or rare spawns, or perception system, or exploration, or any number of things. I think it encourages people to explore more activities in the game.
Quite the opposite. I really enjoy the idea of progressing the PC with actual options and abilities, it worked great in Eve. I really like the idea of players being unique. It will be very disapointing when half the wizards are the same exact build due to respecs.
Yeah, eventually people will have all/most of the masteries and it will just come down to effectively using your LAS. Still, that will likely take some time...hopefully.
Jobeson said:Finn said:I know I probably may not align with you on this, but I actually like that. I think the idea that with enough committment a player will be able to "max out" their character is good for continued engagement (and subs). I also am a huge fan of some mastery points being locked behind drops, or quests, or rare spawns, or perception system, or exploration, or any number of things. I think it encourages people to explore more activities in the game.
Quite the opposite. I really enjoy the idea of progressing the PC with actual options and abilities, it worked great in Eve. I really like the idea of players being unique. It will be very disapointing when half the wizards are the same exact build due to respecs.
If you want to be unique then seek to be skillful, knowledgeable, and kind. Make your mark in the community. At the end of the day a wizard is a wizard is a wizard, and that is a good thing for gameplay.
Iksar said:If you want to be unique then seek to be skillful, knowledgeable, and kind. Make your mark in the community. At the end of the day a wizard is a wizard is a wizard, and that is a good thing for gameplay.
That's a pretty optimistic view. I really don't think that it will be as simple as "a class is a class is a class". I strongly believe that there will be some that stand out amongst classes and some that make the classes look bad. This was definitely the case in EQ.