Think back to your first MMO experience. For many of us on the forums, including me it was EQ1. For others it was WoW, Vanguard, Eve or Star Wars Galaxies. Perhaps you are really old school and played Ultima Online. Your first few hours in the game you were overwhelmed, even confused. But in a good way, it made you curious, you wanted to explore more. I played Nintendo and PlayStation in the late 80’s and 90’s. But an MMO was a completely different type of game that nothing prepared me for.
The year was 1997. The internet was new for gaming and nearly everyone was still on dialup. My older brother showed me Ultima Online, he didn’t let me play though. But I watched in amazement. I didn’t understand that you could logout of the world and the game kept going without you. I didn’t understand how a game could be played by others with my PC off. It made no sense. 2 years later I played EQ1 and I feel in love. I will never forget the first days/weeks and even months of playing EQ1 with my brothers and in laws. 5 of us all playing together was a memory I will always cherish.
Exploring a new world was not just fun because it was new content, it was fun because we had never explored anything like this ever in a virtual world. It was an incredible feeling. It was my first gaming high. I’ve been chasing that feeling for the past 20 years. I loved the first 6-12 months of EQ2 and WoW, they were great before the decline. But even those games didn’t give the ‘high’ I once had. I’ve come to realize something lately, you can only have 1 first high.
So when Pantheon comes out, some of us might feel disappointed that it’s not exactly what we expected and hoped for. Perhaps we should stop and ask ourselves, is the game the problem? Or am I the problem, a junkie chasing their first high?
This is a really important post and something I try to remind people often. So thanks for posting. You're totally right - you can never go back in time. You can never recreate the feeling of seeing an online virtual 3D world for the first time. I have memories of EQ that I deeply love, and sometimes wish I could rewind my brain to go back to them. But it's impossible. And sometimes in trying to recreate those memories, you risk actually tarnishing those good memories you do have. It's never quite the same. Sometimes your best bet is to focus not on going back, but instead on moving forward to create new memories - and really soaking in that moment - that you will feel nostaglic for in the future.
I started in UO toward the end of beta around July of '97. Played that until we got into phase 4 beta for EQ. Played EQ non stop till just before PoP, but by that time we were bouncing between AO beta/launch and EQ. Eventually we settled in AO and occasionally popped into EQ to check in on guildmates and chat/alt. I stuck around in AO, did a month or so in SWGs, FFXI and eventually got into WoW and EQ2 betas. EQ2 beta was a hot mess for the most part, so we stuck with WoW. Played WoW until TBC, left for a bit and came back for Wrath.
The longest I stuck with specific MMOs was up till WoW. I never chase that first high as in the game and awe. I look for the community. If the community is fun and the game is decent, I will stick around and enjoy my time. The problem is newer games always seemed to lack that community feel I was looking for. It was replaced by global general chats, group finders and dungeon running where I swear most people macro'd the most basic verbal responses so they didnt actually have to talk to the group. Most groups were silent save for the random 'BRB' 'OOM' and 'Pulling'.
So for me, I guess the newness and initial wonder would be a quick fix. The community would be the addiction. That is the high I have been chasing since 2004.
Fyerwall said:The problem is newer games always seemed to lack that community feel I was looking for. It was replaced by global general chats, group finders and dungeon running where I swear most people macro'd the most basic verbal responses so they didnt actually have to talk to the group. Most groups were silent save for the random 'BRB' 'OOM' and 'Pulling'.
I'm with you on that. A community that treats each other with respect is hard to find. But I also think it’s hard to create and even harder to maintain. The more successful a game is, the more users it attracts. More users often means more trolls and that leads to a toxic environment. One of the best communities of any game (and I’ve played just about every major MMO made) is Eve online. While, I don’t really like Eve, it’s rather boring, I have to admit the players and community are awesome. At least, they were. I have not played in many years.
I think the reason for this is 2 fold. 1st - the average age of the player makes a big difference. It is much older than other games. I’ve heard numbers like 25-35 years old (for an average), but I have absolutely no idea if that’s true, but it felt true. Contrast that to when WoW started its decline about 10 years ago it seemed like a lot of 12 year old kids were joining, probably coming from Call of Duty and Halo where all they do is talk trash to the other players online. That community became awful. I'm guessing the average WoW player at that time was much younger then it's competitors.
2nd - player base size. Having a lot of subscribers is a double edged sword. We all want an active and thriving game, but not to the point that we have trolls. This is why I hope the monthly cost is significantly higher than most games. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that most people won’t pay $50 a month to troll like the kids do in WoW. I don’t know, just a thought.
Anyway, I’m way off topic but I agree, chasing a great community is certainly top of mind for many of us.
I don't think that you only have one first "high" when it comes to gaming. I had a high in Everquest that lasted until about the end of PoP and then I had a "high" in WoW from classic until the end of Wrath. I think the major issue with games comes down to that game maintaining a high level of addiction after its first impression.
Every game I've ever played has come with an initial "high", however that high tends to wear off after about a month or two when the game's flaws start becoming more apparent. I had this initial high when I played GW2 and it was broken as soon as I realized all classes were basically homogenized and could provide the exact same things based on weapon choice. It was also further broken when I realized that any MMO which lacks a trinity system is not one that I can have lasting fun in. I had this high with ESO initially, but it was broken when I realized that the game is catered to a casual player base, there was very little endgame content, and world events were basically just flashmobs killing an NPC. I had this high in TERA and this one was mainly broken because I was split between two games at the time, however, zone design and repeating the exact same playthrough on alts were other issues I had.
I think the problem with most MMOs is that they do a good job at creating initial excitement but they lack the ability to maintain that excitement long term. I personally think games would be more addicting and be able to maintain that addiction if"
FatedEmperor said:There were multiple level ranges in each zone and each zone had quests and tasks that were based on the player's level.
I love all your ideas, but this one is really interesting. I like the idea of being level 20 and just down the road is a group of level 50's working on a quest near me. Obviously you don't want to have level 20 and 50 mobs right next to each other, but it could be a quest that doesn’t require fighting. Or, perhaps the mobs they are fighting don't agro without being attacked to protect lower level players from instant death. Anyway, great idea.
do we not remember the giants in lake of ill omen ?
or the spectors floating around oasis ?
Level 10-15 zones, with level 35-45 mobs, full agro wandering around.
This gave a great sence of being cautious while leveling. but you got to see higher level players run past. look at there amazing different gear. see Necros floating around with their dead man walking spell (this was not a spell at level 10)
If I remember correctly, VR has said they wish to have several tiers of a dungeon, in one of there streams. something like a courtyard for level 10 players, the first floor for level 15 players, the 2end floor for level 20 players. and maybe something like a rooftop for level 40 players. something like that anyway
While we can never have the wonder of a first MMO experiences, but I don't think anyone expects to be in awe of a crowd size again.
I long to playing with a sense of danger and risk. I long for actual rarity and demand. I long for unbalanced classes. Current MMOs have largely done away with these ideas.
A safe place of perfectly leveled enemies to fight with your perfectly balanced classes where everyone is the same DPS, everyone has the same EHP, everyone does the same HPS. Your choices don't matter since you can reset it all at the push of a button. Everyone of course wearing their perfectly balanced magic items thrown at you and the party constantly to both get a dopamine fix and keep everyone within the bounds of a particular gear level for "fairness" Slaughtering your way through a meaningless leveling process that puts everyone in the same pool of players for the "real game to start"
I long to play a tabletop inspired MMORPG again. I don't think it will ever happen.
I did get a lot of thrills from EQ and EQ2 and I hope to get new ones from Pantheon too. Yes, my first experience of a world in 3D will never be recreated, but that is something I am concious of and accept. However there are lots of things that I expect the game to deliver that should still give me a thrill:
the first time I experience Thronefast in all of its majesty.
the first sunset/sunrise over looking a vast panorama.
this first time I find something new out of the blue.
The first time I learn something about the lore that hasnt been thus far released.
The first time I find something in the wild that leads to something substantial rather than just being a prop.
And lots, lots more...
I think it is a valid point that it will be impossible for Pantheon to replicate feelings I have experienced when playing the likes of EQ for the first time, but this does not mean that Pantheon should not provide its own thrills, excitement and firsts. I think I should expect to be excited when I first play Pantheon and I think I should expect thrills along the way too and if I dont get them, then I think it is reasonable to ask the question whether it is me at fault or the game at fault. But I shouldnt automatically accept that it must be my expectations that need to be amended. The question should still be raised.
Having driven cars all my life, I would still expect to get a feeling of excitement if I got behind the wheel of a super-car. If I didnt, then I can safely say that there is something wrong with that experience. In exactly the same way, I would still expect to be excited by playing Pantheon even when I have test driven many mmos over the years. If I dont, then I should be able to ask why.
I totally agree with the original poster. Back then in 1999, it was awesome feeling to be in a vitual would with another player. There was a deeper appreciation for playing in an online world with other people..
Now the anonymity of the internet and the massive ammount of online games out there has cheapen the experience. What I would like to experience in Pantheon, is to play with people who feel the same way. Where we are social, kind and realize we are here because of the people. So please point me to the guild that will value the player and the social aspects of the game. sometimes I would love to login to help, or craft, or chat, help with quests. it not a race to the end game for me. it's about me escaping and having fun with friends.
Absolutely right that that first love can't be reproduced BUT what I'm hoping for from Pantheon is a recreation of the *feeling* that Everquest gave and every MMORPG since has lost to a greater or lesser extent. Getting that back will be so awesome, I'm sure I won't be missing that 'first love' feeling.
I believe VR have hit the nail right on the head when they emphasise community, challenge and discovery. It's right on the first page of their website and is the most important thing they can say about the game.
A game where you actually *need* to group up with others in order to succeed is wonderful in itself. That you then want to go out and explore the world with those friends is the next step (not just repeat speed-run dungeons for loot and ignore the NPCs and POIs).
One other thing I might add, is a 'grown-up' approach to the game. Even the 12-year-olds that played EQ didn't *want* it to be more childish. It had just the right level of whimsy and humour, but the game was grounded in adult-themes of combat and conflict, war and monsters. Kids love feeling grown up. It didn't alienate anyone (whereas childish games *do* alienate adults, and even kids).
Another is pace. One very 'old-school' thing EQ had was tactical pace. It required and allowed for thought, consideration, discussion and planning. As a side-effect people also had time to socialise.
One more, hehe, is the "world not game" phrase that VR often bandy about (a favourite of Brad). It felt like, possibly because of the pace and community needed, you were visiting a world full of monsters to slay with your friends, not switching a game on for a while.
Oh.. and another! This, I know, is controversial and not true for all people at all: PvE was king. It was about getting together *with* your friends, not *against* your friends. Modern online experiences often appear to think that the ultimate experience is beating your friends or smacking down strangers. For me, and most of the players of EQ, the emphasis on PvE was a given. Most players didn't even /duel because, why?
(Really no offense meant to PvP lovers. I know there were EQ PvP servers and they were very popular with some, but for me the PvE experience was everything and that emphasis has been lost in more recent MMOs, sometimes completely. Also, I love PvP! I play first person shooters for that hit and there are a ton of PvP focused experiences out there these days)
One thing that I always remember about Everquest was the feeling that finally my two geeky passions had come together in 'perfection'. I played Dungeons and Dragons (the pen and paper type) and I played computer games (and was a programmer for a living - in those days, geeks tended to be through-and-through geeks!). With computer games, you were largely alone, even in an RPG, playing all the party of adventurers yourself. With Dungeons and Dragons, you were having to organise real world meet ups of several people and it was usually once per fortnight or month or less (and one of you, usually me, had to be the Dungeon Master, not play *with* your friends (though, yes, being a Dungeon Master was still fun and you weren't really *against* your friends, playing *with* them was more fun)).
Everquest finally made computers the Dungeon Master and brought together players from all over the world at any time you wanted. I know there were earlier games (and I played them) but Everquest brought together levels of gameplay and immersion that made it my first gaming love (and obsession! But what is first love, but love mixed with an unhealthy dose of obsession?! hehe).
Counterfleche said: You won't be able to recreate your first experience, no matter how good Pantheon is. It's like trying to have the same birthday experienceon your 45th birthday that you did when you were 10 and got to race go-karts for the first time.
Agreed.
Counterfleche said:This is why we need to not try to make Pantheon a 1st gen MMO clone. It wasn't all the specifics of the game that made it special, but the newness of the experience combined with the newness of the whole idea of a massive, persistent world with thousands of players.
Disagree. Not totally - we don't want a straight 'clone' - but the whole point for me and many backers, I believe, is that it *is* largely the gameplay of the old games like Everquest that made it what it was and that gameplay emerged from it's mechanics. It wasn't just newness, but goodness. The fact that it was new goodness (at the time) is what made it *quite* so special, but you can't just throw together players and hope for magic.
When people don't *need* to group up, they will tend to solo a lot more.
When people don't *need* downtime, they will tend to rush.
When people don't *need* to talk/discuss/socialise, they will tend to keep quiet.
There are a load of MMOs out there that are just single-player games with spectators, where grouping up and being tactical make the experience trivially easy and boring. Some of the details of the mechanics of Everquest were and still are a bit tedious and, sure, could benefit with change.
It's a horribly hard job for VR to work out what should be improved and what is fundamental to the old-school experience, but I firmly believe Everquest (and Vanguard) got a *lot* right and for Pantheon to recapture what made old-school MMORPGs so good it will need to recreate, if not 'clone', a lot of what was Everquest (and Vanguard).
Anyone who has been happily married for a long time understands that first doesn't equal best. I hope when Pantheon is finished it contains the magic that EQ had in the first few years, not because it was new (it was very much a MUD with 3D graphics) but that it allowed us to find the wonder we are looking for. A vast living fantasy world full of party-based adventures that rewarded skillful play, a like-minded community, class interdependacies, risk vs. reward, a slower pace, abundant lore and character. A real witch's brew, I don't even know the exact recipie. But it doesn't have to be a new experience to be a great one.
Counterfleche said: @disposalist What I meant was a caution against trying to achieve the 1st generation MMO feel by trying to copy all the game mechanics, good and bad. I fully support trying to recreate the feel and the general design philosophy, but it's a mistake to think that the way to achieve this is by faithfully copying all the original aspects of those games. Pantheon needs to find new, interesting ways to achieve this goal. I see many people argue for specific game elements because they were in EQ and I feel this approach fails to understand that we've changed, games have changed, and tech has changed. I will never forget the fire time I rode a rollercoaster--it was an amazing rush. But I can't ever get that same rush again, even if I rode the exact same coaster, because I have changed. I need something new to even get close to the same feeling. I think you and I agree on this point but I wanted to clarify that I do think we should copy the design goals of the original games.
Yeah we do agree really. They shouldn't include everything from EQ just because it was in EQ. I do trust VR that they know what was 'old-school' and what was just old poop hehe.
OP, are you saying everything new has already been created, or do you believe your tastes can never be fulfilled? I think we haven't seen anything yet. The devs just have to create new experiences that can create a new high, while balancing that with keeping that inline with traditional game mechanics.
Doford said:
OP, are you saying everything new has already been created, or do you believe your tastes can never be fulfilled?
No, I just think the magic we once felt is hard to recreate. Like Christmas morning as a kid, that feeling will never be replicated as an adult. Though I will admit, now that I have small children I get joy watching them on Christmas morning. However, it's a different high. So, to answer your question, I'm not sure that same feeling can ever be fulfilled.
Doford said:
The devs just have to create new experiences that can create a new high.
I agree. This is what many of us are hoping for. The problem is just about everything in the MMO space has been done. The genre is very well defined and hasn’t changed much in a long time. I think it would take a big change to create a new high. For example, maybe VR technology gets so good we see it in the MMO space (I am not impressed yet by VR). It could be a new experience and has the potential to really impact how we play MMO’s. That was just an example, I'm not suggesting it will happening soon.