Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Time to best gear

    • 175 posts
    February 22, 2021 7:06 AM PST

    I’ve seen lots of discussion about time to max level, but I can’t seem to find anything contrasting it with time to best gear.

    If we assume that it will take somewhere between 3 to 6 months for a hard core 8hr+ a day gamer to reach max level, how long should it take that same gamer to acquire the best gear for their class stats wise from initial release non-expansion content?

    • 658 posts
    February 22, 2021 7:48 AM PST

    Do you mean in trade, crafting, or adventuring? Adventuring it should take the same amount of time as leveling to top.

     

    I think trade should take about half the time as leveling to the top, but it's really hard to regulate that. Buying cheap and selling for more is pretty op. Easy way to get around it is to make sure the absolute best gear can't be traded, and then it doesn't matter as much if traders can get the second best gear by half max level. In EQ p99 as a tunnel rat I had third best gear by level 20 or so, which might be a little too fast.

     

    Crafting too, there really needs to be a written amount of time the average player needs to get to top level, that can be applied to how much time you require for everything else. Crafting the best stuff should require personal access to the highest level climates/dungeons, which should prove as a natural limiter to crafters getting there too fast.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at February 22, 2021 7:51 AM PST
    • 1317 posts
    February 22, 2021 7:51 AM PST

    You bring up an interesting question.  Leveling is only a small portion of character growth.  In addition to gear there are skills, factions, wealth and as many non-combat systems as can be created. Having an idea the target amount play time for each aspect of game play relative to the time to reach max level would be interesting.

    In previous games I would say I spent maybe 10 hours at max level to every 1 hour spent leveling.  What I did at max level was all over the place though.  A significant portion was prepping for or running raids and that could be considered gearing.  I would also spend an absurd amount of time collecting random things that caught my interest.

    Elite Dangerous is a different bird where there really isn’t a concept of maximum level and you can pursue any number of different play styles.  Some of the play styles reinforce each other but not all do.  Having new spheres of game play other than standard adventuring progression creates huge amounts of game play with minimal additional work.

    FYI 8 hours a day, 7 days a week for 3 months is 672 hours.  I would be surprised if just leveling took that many game hours.

    • 2964 posts
    February 22, 2021 9:27 AM PST

    My assumption is that with rare exception a good piece of level 50 gear will always be better than a good piece of level 40 gear. Thus, getting the best gear in the game is something that cannot even start until maximum level. 

    Trasak is entirely correct - if one diviides the time spent on a game to time reaching maximum level and time to get the character very well developed - gear may be the smallest part of the latter.

    To make a single character close to "the best" may require a lot of extra time spent on gear rather than levels. Either at level-cap or before. But it may require a lot of time spent getting and improving skills - whether we have a character personalization system like AA or not. It may require time spent on Progeny. Or maybe not. It may require time spent on faction and reputation - and in some games and I hope here this is far from trivial. It may require time spent on harvesting and crafting. There is almost no end to the timesinks in a well designed MMO - what differentiates the best ones from the not-so-good ones is how much this feels like mindless "unfun" grinding rather than enjoyable gameplay.

    • 38 posts
    February 22, 2021 9:48 AM PST

    I also think you need to consider with the climate/acclimation system planned it is likely there will be different "best gear" for different situations/areas of the world.

    • 1781 posts
    February 22, 2021 11:00 AM PST

    There may be a dozen or more "best gear" armor/weapon sets (entire sets, not single items) per class with acclimation gear, resist gear, stat gear for various ability synergies etc.

    VR has made it veery clear they don't want just 1 "best gear" item.  


    This post was edited by philo at February 22, 2021 11:02 AM PST
    • 106 posts
    February 22, 2021 11:51 AM PST

    I dont think you will ever see BiS or Meta build also i am thinking your better gear will be a mix from mid level to  max level  group and raid content this will not be WOWs max level treadmill for Ilvl  repeat.

    • 288 posts
    February 22, 2021 1:07 PM PST

    I would like to see the length of time needed to get the best gear be somewhat in line with the timeline for the first expansion launching. Only a limited few should be able to truly max out prior to an expansion. Otherwise the game might be too stale for too many.

    • 175 posts
    February 22, 2021 4:00 PM PST

    *deleted until I can figure out how to condense my reply down to a manageable size*

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Nekentros at February 23, 2021 12:49 AM PST
    • 37 posts
    February 23, 2021 1:22 AM PST

    Well, I have a question in a manageable size, didn't Joppa say there won't be a "best in slot" (BiS) logic regarding itemization ? How will you know that you have achieved the "best possible equipment" ?

    • 658 posts
    February 23, 2021 5:08 AM PST

    Adonhiram said:

    Well, I have a question in a manageable size, didn't Joppa say there won't be a "best in slot" (BiS) logic regarding itemization ? How will you know that you have achieved the "best possible equipment" ?

    Because it is the best at doing what you need in the particular situation. The set with the best cold resistance and lots of strength is best in cold areas for strength-wanting characters.

    • 106 posts
    February 23, 2021 5:22 AM PST

    There is No BEST  because whats Best for you is not always best for me even if playing the same class at the same time on the same content. VR is not trying to force players into a class set that favors a single build the world will not work that way. Worlds have diversty.

    • 2808 posts
    February 23, 2021 9:54 AM PST

    Vixx said:

    There is No BEST  because whats Best for you is not always best for me even if playing the same class at the same time on the same content. VR is not trying to force players into a class set that favors a single build the world will not work that way. Worlds have diversty.

    I mean, there IS a best no matter what content is being done based on desired goal. Two rogues focusing on DPS vs the same content are going to have a best toward meeting that end, but if one rogue is instead focused more on CC or debuffs then they might have a different best. 

    • 268 posts
    February 23, 2021 2:48 PM PST

    Vixx said:

    There is No BEST  because whats Best for you is not always best for me even if playing the same class at the same time on the same content. VR is not trying to force players into a class set that favors a single build the world will not work that way. Worlds have diversty.

    I hope that ends up being true.  We don't have enough info to go on but one thing is obvious: If the game shows us our damage/heal output in actual numbers then there will be parsers to graph that data.  If there are parsers there will be DPS and HPS expectations of raid members.  And if there are performance expectations there will be BiS.  There is no way around it.

    The solution is somewhat simple but unpopular and, in the long run, ineffective: Don't ever expose damage/heal numbers to players which, by extension, means don't expose health, DPS, attack speed or any other raw numbers. 

    Even without being told how much damage per attack and what the attack delay is for that Long Metal Thing of Stabbity, we will be able to figure out how well that item performs against a similar item.  Rankings will occur.  Once enough data is collected we can assign an educated guess to the item's stats and use that to plot any given item's effectiveness.  And we're back to BiS for every slot only now we have to refer to 3rd party web sites to judge gear drops or crafted items.

    Players are free to play as they prefer, of course. But if the game includes any form of raiding or even competitive group play, there will be BiS.  And if you're a member of one of those groups or raids you will be expected to gear up accordingly.  Fail to do so correctly or fast enough and you will be replaced.  VR's only way out is to avoid putting boss mobs in the world and make PRotF truly a casual game.

    • 1121 posts
    February 23, 2021 6:10 PM PST

    Pantheon shouldn't have 'best gear' or 'best in slot' because there will be different scenarios requiring different gear. But if you want to say time to have a full suit of raid gear then I would say probably double the time to max level. Someone raiding 2-3 times a week may have enough DKP to get 1 or 2 items a month depending on what is common or rots etc.

    • 37 posts
    February 24, 2021 2:13 AM PST

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Adonhiram said:

    Well, I have a question in a manageable size, didn't Joppa say there won't be a "best in slot" (BiS) logic regarding itemization ? How will you know that you have achieved the "best possible equipment" ?

    Because it is the best at doing what you need in the particular situation. The set with the best cold resistance and lots of strength is best in cold areas for strength-wanting characters.

    Yes, that's what I understood too, but I am not sure how that will be implemented. What I hope is that there won't be "best in slot" websites (as raidloot.com or alike for Everquest) which literally tell you what to wear at what expac/level. Takes away the dream factor...


    This post was edited by Adonhiram at February 24, 2021 2:13 AM PST
    • 209 posts
    February 24, 2021 7:58 AM PST

    BIS for your main build will be more of pantheon's meta I am guessing.  Changing glyphs as needed to survive anywhere. With this I imagine it would be entirely up to luck on the actual raid drops.  The crafted items can hopefully be farmed to some degree so you could grind those out with a small raid group then protect the crafter in some deep dangerous forge. 

    I honestly think if this is your goal, it will happen quickly since they keep claiming Pantheon's focus is not on raiding so I think motivated people will get high powered gear perfect for their main build rather easily. 

    People keep saying Pantheon won't have best gear, but since VR is throwing magic items at lvl 1s my guess is there will be an underlying ilevel type thing going on for ease of statting.  Raid level gear, meaning actually raiding contested and the gear crafted that requires a raid to either farm raid trash for drops or protect the crafting furnace, will be the best.  There may be a few quests for class items such as an epic, but I strongly assume that too will be a raid required item at some point.  (hopefully not the contested named but simple trash)

    Given other threads you may need multiple raid level items per slot to have the BIS for everything, but people will do it.  Ironically this means raid guilds will keep content on lockdown longer since they will need 5x the drops for themselves to alter builds. 

    • 50 posts
    February 25, 2021 10:01 PM PST

    Never. The goal post should always move before 97.5% of players are even at the content where the best can be found.  Better yet we are always a few expansions behind the best.

    • 5 posts
    March 1, 2021 10:07 AM PST

    I'm hoping it's near impossible to get all the best gear for a class.  Being in the right place at the right time should be a rarity.  Getting very good gear I would hope would take weeks if not months.  I also hope that we won't know what the best gear is.  You may think you have it until player xyz is in the right place at the right time and gets something better.