We talk a lot about the lack of "money sinks". So more money would dissappear in one go from the game or on a more frequent bases.
Up to what point would you find it enjoyable to be called rich? In other words, how much money do you want to have in order to perceive yourself as a rich player?
IF VR manages to put in money sinks so that the average rich person on Terminus has:
What I'm aiming for is, the players will have (due to there being more moneysinks in this game) less money in their banks/bags saved. That VR has somehow designed a system that keeps the max amount of coin per person lower than in other games.
I believe that if having 100 plat is called being a rich person and that's the general rule that everyone playing this game has accepted, most people wouldn't mind having "only" 100 plat. I'm not saying hard cap it, I just mean that there are moneysinks in the game that take away that much coin from that the player, that you'll struggle to bank more than "around" 100 plat.
Or would you just expect and only accept the following: player richness grows with tiers, levels and expansions. (most likely leading to situations where things are sold in the millions of plat) And most players will not reach that amount of coin. Or new players will run into a wall of unreachable auctionprices and find themselves not being able to catch up and experience that everything they make or sell while leveling up is worth nearly nothing. Creating a race to the top story in Pantheon.
What are your thoughts on having less coin banked? (again not due to restrictive hard caps, but due to a balanced amount of moneysinks in the game)
Very interesting thoughts, thank you.
Perhaps it is too early to aim for numbers, because the economy of the game is not yet 'alive' ?
All ingame MMO economies are player driven in regard to prices, which reflect the desirability of a tradable item or resource (thinking of WoW where selling resources is actually a good way to make some cash). The prices also vary in regard to the monetary mass, id est the total amount of pp+gp+cp available at a specific time. The higher the monetary mass, the higher the prices, which is the well-known mechanism of...inflation. This explains for example why in EQ a strongly desired item like Kronos cost more and more expansions after expansion ; the desirability is stable and constant, but the available monetary mass gets higher over time.
For these reasons, prices go up and down (although permanently sought after items will tend to go up only), pushed by the size of the monetary mass and regulated up or down by desirability. When Pantheon will launch, there will be no way to tell if 100pp -to take your example- will mean the same "buying power" (sorry I don't know the exact translation in English) than six months later. Perhaps 100pp is "wealthy" at launch but it will be "poor" six months later because of the growing monetary mass and the inflation it generates.
All MMOs have moneysinks btw to limit the growth of the monetary mass and slow down inflation, which is a nightmare for the devs who watch very closely how economics evolve in their game. Every dev implements moneysinks (any mechanism which substracts cash from the monetary mass) in his game ; they are his brakes...
Barin999 said:We talk a lot about the lack of "money sinks". So more money would dissappear in one go from the game or on a more frequent bases.
Up to what point would you find it enjoyable to be called rich? In other words, how much money do you want to have in order to perceive yourself as a rich player?
IF VR manages to put in money sinks so that the average rich person on Terminus has:
- 1000 plat (or which ever the highest value coin might be)
- 100 plat
- 10 plat
What I'm aiming for is, the players will have (due to there being more moneysinks in this game) less money in their banks/bags saved. That VR has somehow designed a system that keeps the max amount of coin per person lower than in other games.
I believe that if having 100 plat is called being a rich person and that's the general rule that everyone playing this game has accepted, most people wouldn't mind having "only" 100 plat. I'm not saying hard cap it, I just mean that there are moneysinks in the game that take away that much coin from that the player, that you'll struggle to bank more than "around" 100 plat.
Or would you just expect and only accept the following: player richness grows with tiers, levels and expansions. (most likely leading to situations where things are sold in the millions of plat) And most players will not reach that amount of coin. Or new players will run into a wall of unreachable auctionprices and find themselves not being able to catch up and experience that everything they make or sell while leveling up is worth nearly nothing. Creating a race to the top story in Pantheon.
What are your thoughts on having less coin banked? (again not due to restrictive hard caps, but due to a balanced amount of moneysinks in the game)
I don't mind limits to coin, I only like to get enough money to buy what I want and then be done with it, so honestly I'd be really well equipped yet have almost no platinum.
I definately don't like the idea of expansions making everyone richer. Horizontal expansions and all that.
I’d consider myself rich when I can buy anything in the game and not feel strained by the purchases.
Experience tells me that if the game does well there will be substantial inflation and anything we have during the first year will count as "broke" by year 5 standards.
My goal is to have some extra coin to occasionally make crafting faster by buying materials instead of harvesting them. Not often - I enjoy harvesting. To be able to get a mount when and if these come out. To be able to get a house or a boat if either or both become available. I do not care in any slightest way whether I am considered "rich" since I go well out of my way not to flaunt any success I may have.
Once I have my main outfitted and crafts leveled, about the only thing to spend money on is alts and potential gear repairs. Beyond that, Money in an MMO is not super meaningful to me, it doesnt make me a better player to have 1mil or 10 mil gold if those previous mentioned things are taken care of already. If I needed that money also for a house plot, house, furniture etc then I might think slightly differently.
Personally, I have never like labeling myself as rich in games regardless of the amount of money I held at the time so it's almost hard to answer this question from that mindset. It's also hard to answer because it depends on the game's economy, what gold sinks there are, and what luxury items there are.
In general, I guess I would classify myself as rich as long as I had the ability to afford the things I needed such as repairs and general maintenance as well as had the ability to buy luxury items and still be decently well off.
To give some context to this I farmed up 5 million gold in WoW's last expansion to buy an AH mount before it was no longer "easily" obtainable and then I farmed another million to buy WoW tokens so I could purchase the Shadowlands collector edition without having to use real money. I hardly had anything left after making these purchases but I was still able to take care of my basic costs and buy the major luxury items associated with that expansion. Never once was I like "I'm rich." because that money always had something that it was going towards.
To answer your question about banked gold caps regardless of how the game evolves inflation will always eventually come into existence and there is little way to prevent this other than to limit the total amount of gold in circulation at one time. The issue with implementing this cap is that it would also have to take into account NPCs dropping gold, vendor trash, players who are hoarding gold, and alt characters who may have gold on them. I suppose it would be possible to implement some kind of system that slowly decays money placed in a bank putting it back into circulation, but I'm not sure people would be thrilled with that Idea and it poses a number of questions that would have to be asked and answered.
This topic has been promoted as part of my CM content, please continue the discussion!
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I like having just enough money in game to cover repair costs (as a Bard I am usually a 100mph calamity) and material costs for crafting. When it comes to farming things for crafting I tend to horde rather than sell. Gear drops I will often let others take if I don't need it. If I end up having to take it, I will give it away if I can, like to new players in starting areas.
I personally don't see a need to be rich in game. If it happens, it happens, but its not something I actively strive for.
First of all, you have to have a RP mind set.
Scratch that, lest I offend. To be more politically correct I mean, you have to have a CLASS mind-set.
And I don't mean like nouveau-riche, tacky gold gilded mirrors, "the emperor has no clothes" fairy tale morality lesson, Midas-touch, you can have money and no class - "class"
I mean like putting your empty sandwich wrapper garbage in your pocket because you're in the middle of the woods, class; and up from there. Some may broadly call it situational awareness, or "reading the room" or in this case, reading the world.
What I mean is: Let's say you're a caster. A sword means nothing to you, no matter if you know how good it really is from your understanding because as a caster the bag space its occupying is worth more. Pages , books, research materials, inks are valuable to you. Store bought spells are pricey so you need money, sure, but you need the learning to even attempt to use them even if you have the money to buy them. Otherwise its wasted money and you're carrying around a spell you can't use yet.
Thats how you keep prices low reasonable. pfft! this sword? you want to pay 5 gold for this sword? i'll give it to you for 3 to take it off my hands- waitaminit- what's that you got there? you were going to sell that squid ink to a merchant?!. Look, keep the gold. No, I'll give you 2 gold, the sword, the bracer and this bow for that ink, the book, and all those pages. deal?
Cash is really just another way to keep score for those who make a game out of being a trader. Some people love raiding, others live for PvP and plenty of people spend stupid amounts of time on fashion quest. Trading is just another challenge.
Limiting cash and cash sinks wont really stop traders. Real traders will either convert cash to high value, high demand items to keep an inventory of or move cash to alternate characters or accounts.
That being said I could see an interesting secondary mechanic of having banks localized and that would be cash limits that a bank will protect for free an fees on overages. If coinage has weight then the location where it is stored matters. If a portion of the cash in your inventory is lost on death it will also add to the risk of death and encourage the possibility of traveling peddlers that provide exchange services for safer wealth.
Ultimately though I would like to see some real effort into keeping cash rewards per hour controlled and have cash sinks be relative to that value. A near infinite, but optional, benefit to throwing money into cash sinks will go a long way towards keeping server cash levels low. One time character or account costs are not really effective cash sinks over time.
For me, I don't enjoy when the money gets in the way of the gameplay, so as a habit, I scrimp, save, and effeciently grind together whatever amount is required to be above those basic nuisances. I.E. I never want to be too poor to repair, travel, vend, ect.
If the amount needed to maintain that luxury status changes, then I gain that much more wealth.
If I need gear upgrades or build improvements that are accomplished through gold, I generate the money to pay for them. Outside that, I do not need or want money.
Barin999 said:What I'm aiming for is, the players will have (due to there being more moneysinks in this game) less money in their banks/bags saved. That VR has somehow designed a system that keeps the max amount of coin per person lower than in other games.
I think there would have to be moneysinks & Systems specifically tied to the ecomony, such as;
1.Making coins have considerable weight.(Limiting the carry amount)
2.Coins Dropped on death are lost.
3.Coins degrade over time when carried.
4.Coins no longer drop from kills, only things that can be sold to merchants.
5.Merchants have a limited supply of coin, resupplied as the economy needs.
6.Banks charge a holding fee over a certain amount of money held, increasing at set intervals.
That sorta thing.
I want to eventually be rich in game. To me this means that I can comfortable buy the equipment I want, the tradeskill materials I don't gather myself, the spells I will need for my next spell circle, and the equipment to twink alts. But I want it to really be a challenge to get to that point. I love that feeling of starting up a new character in an MMO and having to run back to sell vendor trash to a merchant just to start buying bags and to keep from being hungry/thirsty. Or even selling stuff that isn't quite vendor trash (bat wings or bone chips etc. in EQ for example) because I truly need the money more. Then, as I progress, I want the loot to become more valuable to sell to vendors (not counting good equipment drops) in a proportionate manner to how the loot was at level 1. As in, if a level 4 spell costs 2gp and I have to kill/sell for a certain amount of time for it, then a level 30 spell costing 20pp should require the same amount of time and effort to purchase when I'm adventuring at level 29 or whatever.
HemlockReaper said:Barin999 said:What I'm aiming for is, the players will have (due to there being more moneysinks in this game) less money in their banks/bags saved. That VR has somehow designed a system that keeps the max amount of coin per person lower than in other games.
I think there would have to be moneysinks & Systems specifically tied to the ecomony, such as;
1.[...]
2.Coins Dropped on death are lost.
3.[...]
4.Coins no longer drop from kills, only things that can be sold to merchants.
5.Merchants have a limited supply of coin, resupplied as the economy needs.
6.Banks charge a holding fee over a certain amount of money held, increasing at set intervals.That sorta thing.
I kind of like the idea behind 2. that could be a replacement for the fear of death engendered by the old school naked corpse run. Also it might solve the problem of dead starting cities as players would have to be consious of making bank runs to deposit their coins while also being wary of ebncumberance for the other loot. More on dead starting cities below
4. As coin gets more finite from adventurers looting it and not spending it at merchants, this causes more bandits or robbers to appear on the roads to rob you of money- you have a choice, fight or pay. the more players die in the world, the more coin gets "spilled" and gets re-distribted to the monsters.
5&6. Stranger in a strange land. With local banks. Faction will get you in the door, but as a Non-native goods and services will cost you more. This depends on dreating a need to: Must having a bank in the local area. if you are form out of town, you have to pay holding fees. Merchants manage their limited supply by charging aliens more and selling to them for less. Coolness factor: some dungeons have banks run by indifferent monsters but these banks can only hold a certain amount of players coin, for free. thing is? have to go through the dungeon to get to it. This will also keep newbie cities populated as players rush back and forth for admin purposes, and fueled by the fear of losing coin on death. Better to take 10min to run and pay a small fee, than lose it all.
"@beaverbiscuit : I only like to get enough money to buy what, @hemlockreaper: I’d consider myself rich when I can buy anything in the game, @ dorotea: My goal is to have some extra coin to occasionally make crafting faster by buying materials instead of harvesting them, @bigdogchris: Only need as much as I need to buy the equipment I want for my twinks. Beyond that it doesn't mean anything, @fatedemperor: that money always had something that it was going towards, @kotter: I enjoy making plat more than having plat, @fyerwall: I like having just enough money in game to cover repair costs, @gottbeard: I scrimp, save, and efficiently grind together whatever amount is required, @Faymom: But I want it to really be a challenge to get to that point."
If I recap the input of the people listed above, it seems people are willing to work for their maintenance/ ongoing costs. The amount of coin is not something that is a goal for the majority of people here. Coin is seen as means to an end, but has no inherent value or other meaning to the player itself.
So what I gather from this is that you’d be ok with having no coin drops at all, but just items to be sold. And in fact, you’d enjoy this even more because you have to work for it. The time it takes to build up enough funds to buy whatever you want or need, is perceived as more meaningful.
If more people respond in this thread, it would present an even better picture. If this is the way players view coin and the concept of being “rich”, you’re providing a lot of insight into the community and an angle for VR to design their economy accordingly (if that is what they want ofc).
The question I would ask to the above players listed above, would you be ok or enjoy even, the period where you “struggle”, work yourself up to the point of being able to purchase Something? --> The period of time where you do not (yet) have enough money to obtain what you want. Or would you rather have several easy paths by which you can easily and quickly farm up the amount you need?
I would think that I would enjoy the struggle, as long as the end goal is within sight. If I need to go farming for days, then I wouldn’t be as motivated to gather the resources to sell for coin ,etc. If I need 2-3-5 play sessions of casual gameplay where I can obtain enough money without having that farm-feeling, I would enjoy that even more. Even if that means, that the time of struggle is longer. (underlying structure is; invest in content to obtain resources that I can sell for coin or trade for my desired item).
@vandraad:" I like obtaining as much wealth as possible regardless of it such amount are actually necessary."
Could you explain a bit more what drives you in this aspect?
Would you say that you would compare yourself to another player based on the amount of coin gathered?
Would you feel more satisfied/succesfull in the game, by having a large amount of coin in your bank?
If it's a personal driving motivation, that is not linked to anything outside your own goals as a player, would you enjoy a game that does not offer you that option? Or where this goal is noticably hampered by game design?
HemlockReaper said:1.Making coins have considerable weight.(Limiting the carry amount)
2.Coins Dropped on death are lost.
4.Coins no longer drop from kills, only things that can be sold to merchants.
6.Banks charge a holding fee over a certain amount of money held, increasing at set intervals.That sorta thing.
1,2,4,6 seem very reasonable mechanics.
Concerning:
3.Coins degrade over time when carried.
Although I understand that it's meant as moneysinks, I'm not sure how I feel about coin degrading. If I'm going on a holiday, I don't want to return with no coin in my bags. Or if I go afk for 3 hours, I expect to have the same amount in my bags.
5.Merchants have a limited supply of coin, resupplied as the economy needs.
In case there is a very active community (likely the first few years of the game, at least), those npc's would be out of coin rather quickly. If you have gear farmers on that server, those "economy needs" would be artificially be kept high or ever increasing. Which kind of undermines the entire goal, what you were aiming for by this mechanic. The upside would be that you'll have a lot of players running from one NPC to another to find an NPC with enough coin. On the other side, wouldn't this just lead up to NPC being bypassed and auctionchannels being primarly used, either to trade for goods or to sell for coin?
Manouk said:Stranger in a strange land. With local banks. Faction will get you in the door, but as a Non-native goods and services will cost you more.
I like the concept here, one fear would be, would this create some sort of railroad. Where if you want to go to the dwarves and spent considerable time there, you're kind of obligated to farm for a good standing with the dwarven faction?
It makes sense to me that befriended populations would offer different pricings compared to societies that don't know you very well.
Would you accept the idea that it is just not possible to gain good standing with a faction and thus costs would remain high? Or should everything be flexible, where you can mold your standing with that facion enough so that they offer better deals and agree upon an increased value for your goods?
Coming from another angle here, what do you think about NPC populations that are not interested in certain goods, because they can't use it or those goods you're offering are coming from an competing or befriended faction? Example: human NPC is not interested in gear that you got by killing elves. OR; halfling NPC is not interested in gear that came from the "disgusting" skar.
Trasak said:That being said I could see an interesting secondary mechanic of having banks localized and that would be cash limits that a bank will protect for free an fees on overages. If coinage has weight then the location where it is stored matters. If a portion of the cash in your inventory is lost on death it will also add to the risk of death and encourage the possibility of traveling peddlers that provide exchange services for safer wealth.
Why make a distinction at "a portion of the cash lost on death"? What reasons are there to allow for some coin to remain in your inventory?
If you're broke after death, you made the wrong call by not banking that coin or otherwise turning it into valueables that carry over beyond death.
I like the idea of traveling peddlers as it's a blade that cuts both ways. And that is a very interesting thought to take into consideration. At one side, you can prevent from losing coin through death by trading coin for goods from that peddler. On the other side, because you have received more goods in your inventory, your carrying capacity and/or your movement speed is being influenced. And you might not be able to carry on much further before needing to empty your bags or needing to discard good along the way. Especially that last part would positively impact the perceived value of items and the moneysinks present in the game.
Also those peddlers won't be omnipresent in the game. So the time between peddlers would be even more risky. (enjoyable? due to experienced tension by fear of the impact of death)
A lot of suggestions that would not feel at all fair or good as a player here. And while not all things need to be equal, some of the above suggestions disproportionately empower Wizard, Druid, and Enchanter when it comes to making and/or keeping money while hurting all others much more than if such systems didn't exist.
Also, who honestly would like losing coin on death? Who wants even more long term group interruptions/downtime as people run off to store their coin?