I'd imagine all stats being important to each class in their own ways with maybe 4-5 being "core" to a sizeable chunk of their abilities.
For example (and none of this is necessarily the way it is currently) in older PA tests some Ranger abilities listed their modifying stats as: STR, WIS, INT, CHA. While others were AGI & STR, AGI & DEX, or just straight AGI.
Also in the past the site listed CHA as important for some Warrior shouts/abilities as well as Paladin.
It's not as simple as that.
Stats will do different things for different classes and then specific spells/abilities will also be modified by stats.
An example we were given was that wisdom increased crit chance for a wizard but increased mana for a cleric. (Crit chance for a cleric would be a different stat...and of course int increases mana for the wizard)
That ^ is separate from abilities modified by stats that might include something like you mentioned...strength as a modifier for a certain fireball spell type of thing.
I think this is a case of, "it's so old, it's new."
MAD (multi-attribute dependant) and alternative stat systems have been around for an age. I'm personally glad to see these systems being used because they provide for better build diversity and are easier to balance. The more avenues to modify performance the harder it is for a hard m.e.t.a. to form. The more total stats that meaningfully modify class performance the harder it is to build SAD (single attribute dependant) or otherwise abnormally effecient character builds. As a side note, they also tend to have a better roleplay flavor
Some cool modifiers I could see...
There are many fun possibilities and I can't wait to see what they come up with.
Needing to carry / swap gear based on what pet I summon does not sound fun.
I think it will lead to tons more greed as well. Needing for the str-int earing drop for the earth pet summon. Dire lords feelings be damned.
Jobeson said:Needing to carry / swap gear based on what pet I summon does not sound fun.
I think it will lead to tons more greed as well. Needing for the str-int earing drop for the earth pet summon. Dire lords feelings be damned.
That makes more need, not greed.
Also I doubt this applies to summoner pets at all. They have their own stats entirely that are changed based on what gear the summoner gives them.
Jobeson said:Needing to carry / swap gear based on what pet I summon does not sound fun.
Whether you "need" to swap gear before casting a certain spell/ability is a bit of an opinion but the way stats will modify abilities that will likely be the case in some situations at least.
Horizontal progression has always been heavily emphasized. Collecting a variety of stat gear that modifies different abilities/play styles is very similar to collecting resist gear or collecting climate gear/glyphs that help you acclimate to different atmospheres.
Jobeson said:I think it will lead to tons more greed as well. Needing for the str-int earing drop for the earth pet summon. Dire lords feelings be damned.
This is something I have been talking about since we found out how stats work.
When stats are not universal, they vary by class/ability, AND there are both hard and soft caps that makes stats very fluid.
Everyone rolls on every item they can equip. There is no more need before greed. Everyone could need every stat at some point.
It makes it difficult to talk about stats between players. It makes it difficult to distribute loot. There are a ton of variables. That can be good or bad.
On one hand it's exciting to see things like this and the build versatility it can lead to, but on the other hand, I agree that the loot distribution is going to be a nightmare in PUGs and on raids. Everyone is rolling or bidding on almost everything. Shouldn't impact pre-mades too, too much, but will be some extra overlap.
philo said:Collecting a variety of stat gear that modifies different abilities/play styles is very similar to collecting resist gear or collecting climate gear/glyphs that help you acclimate to different atmospheres.
Absolutely ! But isn't that precisely the reason why there shouldn't be too many "swapping situations" ? They already exist, as you said, in regard to climate. Perhaps even to perception (increasing temporarily wisdom/charisma/intelligence to notice or be noticed by a specific NPC for example). I am worried that multiplying the situations where you need to swap gear leads to a swap festival, especially for casters. At some point, it stops being fun. It's a question of dosing I suppose...
Adonhiram said:philo said:Collecting a variety of stat gear that modifies different abilities/play styles is very similar to collecting resist gear or collecting climate gear/glyphs that help you acclimate to different atmospheres.
Absolutely ! But isn't that precisely the reason why there shouldn't be too many "swapping situations" ? They already exist, as you said, in regard to climate. Perhaps even to perception (increasing temporarily wisdom/charisma/intelligence to notice or be noticed by a specific NPC for example). I am worried that multiplying the situations where you need to swap gear leads to a swap festival, especially for casters. At some point, it stops being fun. It's a question of dosing I suppose...
Swapping gear has been talked about recently but of course nothing is definitive at this point. It might end up that weapons can be swapped quickly in combat but armor can't.
Worst case scenario is VR puts limits on swapping with a time to equip delay, or that they can only be swapped out of combat...and people still swap gear anyway.
So then mid combat players might use their drop agro abilities to switch gear or, worse, want the puller to wait in between every pull so they can switch gear.
Either way, I agree. Swapping gear isnt fun.
It makes no sense for a caster to need strength, it's not like he's hurling that fireball physically with his hand; it's a spell. Spells have a set amount of damage they can do and no amount of strength is going to make them hurt more nor go farther. Same with the bard and the constitution, he can't sing farther just because he's got more CON, that makes no sense at all. Sure, maybe for a longer time, but how does it increase his range? it doesn't. Again with the rogue, so what you're saying is that if a spider poisons me and I die of it rather quickly, and then a rogue comes along and poisons me, and it barely hurts; that the spider has more intellect or wisdom than the rogue? that makes zero sense. Either way, if you put this in, you are going to have people rolling on everything, and that's going to be a nightmare.
VR should really implement the need over greed system, as it would keep a lot of headache down and out of the game. Everyone needing everything because of some off stat is going to lead to fighting and a lot of it. Though as some have said here, you could try and talk it out with people and while that might work, how are you going to stop them from rolling regardless? You could sit there, talk to them until you are blue in the face, they might even agree, and then they still roll on it. what now? You can't just remove their ability to roll because it's a mechanic built into the game that would pop up for everyone in the group. Even after you kick him, the roll is still going to count because he was part of the group right before you kicked him and he was still part of the group when he rolled. What if they win it, are you going to tell them that roll doesn't count and demand they give it to whoever? That ain't happening. I know what the responses will be and that's "well then black list him, don't invite him back, all this other nonsense about rep and whatnot...but here's the issue, only a small few actually see rep as a real thing in a game. Sure, VR can say rep will matter, but it really doesn't. The person that rolled is just going to find others that play the same way, which leads to even bigger headaches that just not listening to a loot roll. The rolling system isn't going to take into account if the roll was done out of greed, out of need, or if it was done purely on accident/misclick; all it's going to see is a roll and a number. If you actually add filters, then the the game can see why the person rolled and allocate the loot accordingly. Misclicks or hitting the wrong button is still going to happen, but they are very few and far between.
I don't mind switching gear as long as there's macros.
Everyone needing the same item means more demand, which pulls you back into dungeons and items out of the auction house
It can and should be hard to get items if you aren't soloing, and really hard to not die or handle much of a camp if you are.
You will still have people who don't want to wear leather armor not rolling on it even if it has good stats.
I think a-typical stats is a great idea, though it can be easy to make stuff absurd, like strength effecting your fireball.
Some more absurd ideas-
cha effects hate generation/taunt/prices/pets,
int effects crafting/melee hit chance/cooldown times,
wisdom effects melee crit/dodge chance,
strength effects climb speed/carry weight/blocking with your staff/climate resistance,
agi effects spell casting while being hit/cast speed,
constitution makes spells cheaper/improves carry weight/climate resistance.
EDIT constitution could also help leach type spells and health to mana type spells.
One of the changes from the earlier MMOs is that year by year attributes have become simplified and oversimplified apparently because developers feel many players are either too stupid to figure anything out if it involves comparing more than two numbers or that they are unwilling to put more than 30 seconds into actually thinking about gear. I consider this very far indeed from a positive development.
I much preferred the older system where everything mattered - although not equally - and a player had to decide what mattered more to him or her.
Thus - does a melee class focus on strength in order to maximize damage and perhaps THACO (chance of hitting an enemy - percentage chance To Hit Armor Class 0). Does it trade some strength to gain dexterity to have a better chance of dodging attacks? But to look at attributes often considered irrelevant today - does it try for higher charisma to sell things for more coin, buy things for less coin and get more conversation options talking to NPCs. Does it try for higher intelligence to get better skills or get skills sooner. Maybe an important combat ability 5 levels earlier. Maybe more choices in the AA system if there is one.
The mage and strength. Maybe a stronger mage can cast more times before becoming exhausted. This is far from trivial. Maybe a stronger mage can carry a lot more. So my ultimately intelligent mage sits and cries after winning a fight because she simply cannot carry the spoils of victory as the more well rounded mages head off with the "phat lewt".
OCastitatisLilium said:It makes no sense for a caster to need strength, it's not like he's hurling that fireball physically with his hand; it's a spell. Spells have a set amount of damage they can do and no amount of strength is going to make them hurt more nor go farther. Same with the bard and the constitution, he can't sing farther just because he's got more CON, that makes no sense at all. Sure, maybe for a longer time, but how does it increase his range? it doesn't. Again with the rogue, so what you're saying is that if a spider poisons me and I die of it rather quickly, and then a rogue comes along and poisons me, and it barely hurts; that the spider has more intellect or wisdom than the rogue? that makes zero sense. Either way, if you put this in, you are going to have people rolling on everything, and that's going to be a nightmare.
VR should really implement the need over greed system, as it would keep a lot of headache down and out of the game. Everyone needing everything because of some off stat is going to lead to fighting and a lot of it. Though as some have said here, you could try and talk it out with people and while that might work, how are you going to stop them from rolling regardless? You could sit there, talk to them until you are blue in the face, they might even agree, and then they still roll on it. what now? You can't just remove their ability to roll because it's a mechanic built into the game that would pop up for everyone in the group. Even after you kick him, the roll is still going to count because he was part of the group right before you kicked him and he was still part of the group when he rolled. What if they win it, are you going to tell them that roll doesn't count and demand they give it to whoever? That ain't happening. I know what the responses will be and that's "well then black list him, don't invite him back, all this other nonsense about rep and whatnot...but here's the issue, only a small few actually see rep as a real thing in a game. Sure, VR can say rep will matter, but it really doesn't. The person that rolled is just going to find others that play the same way, which leads to even bigger headaches that just not listening to a loot roll. The rolling system isn't going to take into account if the roll was done out of greed, out of need, or if it was done purely on accident/misclick; all it's going to see is a roll and a number. If you actually add filters, then the the game can see why the person rolled and allocate the loot accordingly. Misclicks or hitting the wrong button is still going to happen, but they are very few and far between.
Wow, lot to unpack here. Yes it is literally like the caster is using their strength to physically hurl fire. That is the example given in the Joppa interview. In my example of bard, I was alluding to the physiology of vocal projection. Historically, Con has been a modifier for body function in Stat driven games. No I am not implying a spider's poison is governed by Intelligence. A spider creates poison in its body through the use of a venom gland, ergo it would be governed by con (body stuff). A rogue does not usually have a poison gland. A rogue gets their poison from extraction and invention (brain stuff) therefore the strength of that poison could easily be governed by intelligence.
All this talk about need/greed nightmares seems a little "sky is falling". As mentioned before, A wizard wont share a large portion of their gear potential with a warrior, so they won't often be fighting over the same piece. And even when they do want the same exact piece... so what... they are both entitled to it (because thats what "need" MEANS) and that is what dice rolls, dkp, money, and negotiation skills are for.